ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/16/loewe-sale-idUSL5N0KQ46K20140116
So Loewe will be the next Bang & Olufsen??
x:________________________
good luck to Loewe, I hate to see any brand in this situation. Could a blend of Californian and Danish mindset with Chinese money work ?, could be very interesting.
I'm not sure if Europe is ready to buy a Chinese premium brand in this market segment so could be a clever way of opening doors.
we tend to forget there is more to design than designing.
Mark: I'm not sure if Europe is ready to buy a Chinese premium brand in this market segment so could be a clever way of opening doors.
The Indians own Jaguar and the Chinese own most of the UK and, if anything, things have improved (Jaguar, Aston's etc)! Scandinavians are great people, with a superb culture (I want to move to Sweden!), but sadly if anything, they can be a bit sloooooow. Most of my furniture is Danish and I can often wait 16 weeks for delivery of a simple item. Ordered some Artek Golden Bell pendants (http://www.artek.fi/products/lighting/144) in November, still haven't shipped :)
Perhaps Indian and Chinese investment and know-how can speed up and enhance production for a wider market.
moxxey: Mark: I'm not sure if Europe is ready to buy a Chinese premium brand in this market segment so could be a clever way of opening doors. The Indians own Jaguar and the Chinese own most of the UK and, if anything, things have improved (Jaguar, Aston's etc)! Scandinavians are great people, with a superb culture (I want to move to Sweden!), but sadly if anything, they can be a bit sloooooow. Most of my furniture is Danish and I can often wait 16 weeks for delivery of a simple item. Ordered some Artek Golden Bell pendants (http://www.artek.fi/products/lighting/144) in November, still haven't shipped :) Perhaps Indian and Chinese investment and know-how can speed up and enhance production for a wider market.
I could have sent you those, I think they're shelf items here.
Too long to list....
bayerische: I could have sent you those, I think they're shelf items here.
I ordered quite a few, which weren't in stock at Artek!
Mark, I do think we need history and brand pedigree.
I just read online that Dacia is planning a luxury car. I wonder how many will buy it? Surely less people than bought the VW Phaethon.
bayerische: Mark, I do think we need history and brand pedigree.
Asian companies have companies and history, we're just not necessarily aware of them. Studied Chinese and Japanese ancient history?
I do enjoy the fact that Europeans assume that their brands are the only ones with 'pedigree' and history. Ironically, all these products are made from components designed, manufactured and produced in Asian territories. If this 'pedigree' is design, then B&O is just designing and wrapping a front around Asian manufactured components.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
moxxey: bayerische: I could have sent you those, I think they're shelf items here. I ordered quite a few, which weren't in stock at Artek!
Grab a suitcase and fly over, Helsinki is a hot destination nowadays (although the current weather is not)
--mika
Arena, a Radio and television brand from my hometown Horsens DK, was sold in the late 60s and changed name to Rank Arena. The factory in Horsens was closed. And here is what Rank Arena does today, maybe the way to go for Loewe and B&O
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Maybe we will see some of these again:
http://beophile.com/?page_id=10333
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
loewe will never be the new bno
there's only one bno
tournedos: moxxey: bayerische: I could have sent you those, I think they're shelf items here. I ordered quite a few, which weren't in stock at Artek! Grab a suitcase and fly over, Helsinki is a hot destination nowadays (although the current weather is not)
tournedos: Grab a suitcase and fly over, Helsinki is a hot destination nowadays (although the current weather is not)
No need, they are already here. Pick them up tomorrow!
moxxey: tournedos: Grab a suitcase and fly over, Helsinki is a hot destination nowadays (although the current weather is not) No need, they are already here. Pick them up tomorrow!
You couldn't make it up. My Finnish Artek light shades, which have taken weeks to arrive, have a huge "Made in China" on the box. I guess this is that Scandinavian heritage we've been discussing :)
moxxey: You couldn't make it up. My Finnish Artek light shades, which have taken weeks to arrive, have a huge "Made in China" on the box. I guess this is that Scandinavian heritage we've been discussing :)
Just about every manufacturer/ retailer has now taken the 'Made in China' route. Even visiting Colorado 10 years ago all the cowboy belts etc made for tourists had a discrete 'Made in China' label. The current trend is to try to give more prominence to a 'Designed in Denmark/ USA/ California' additional label. The Chinese have now got us over a barrel. We produce next to nothing ourselves so all of our finance goes east to pay for imports, but for how long? We are borrowing and borrowing just to keep this importing charade going. All companies run on credit with no reserves (Apple being a notable exception but keeping its trillions offshore to avoid paying taxes).
I wouldn't mind betting that B&O will be the least of posters concerns here in a few years.
Graham
vikinger: Just about every manufacturer/ retailer has now taken the 'Made in China' route.
Just about every manufacturer/ retailer has now taken the 'Made in China' route.
I know, but you still pay the same price and premium for the same shades as when they weren't made in China. At least with TVs etc, the justification of moving their production to China is that the prices come down as a result. I'm always a bit unsure when furniture and similar makers take their product, move production to China, but the price remains the same as before.
I have always thought the same for premium clothing manufactures, what do they do with this serge of monies ?.
Hopefully they are investing in 3D printing as this could really open the door to creative design.
moxxey: vikinger: Just about every manufacturer/ retailer has now taken the 'Made in China' route. I know, but you still pay the same price and premium for the same shades as when they weren't made in China. At least with TVs etc, the justification of moving their production to China is that the prices come down as a result. I'm always a bit unsure when furniture and similar makers take their product, move production to China, but the price remains the same as before.
Manufacturers have an initial window of opportunity to keep charging the same and to increase their profits. It can't last though. At some point the Chinese manufacturers are just going to buy out the western companies: Saab is a good example of how the Chinese see the value of a brand name but will eventually either focus only on the Chinese market and/or gradually transfer all production and marketing to China.
The likes of Loewe and B&O have been in the minority of electronics companies: the majority of electrical and electronic goods prices have been falling in real terms for the past 50 years.
Although loewe are in no way a b&0 with the new range there is a definite improvement in the picture quality, they have now added a three step motion compensation soft, middle, intensive.
I've played around with the reference ID and the new individual and believe me when i say they have one of the smoothest natural artifact free pictures you will see they have also gone back to double coating the anti reflective screen.
setting the correct screen format switching off the noise reduction, reducing sharpness to 1 and setting the motion compensation to soft showed a jaw dropping picture everything was natural but sharp and full of detail.
I love my individual compose but there is a big improvement with the newer models, and as for sound the refrence ID has 160 watts and includes a six inch subwoofer built into the cabinet with broadband speakers concealed behind the cloth speaker grille.
that sounds impressive too, i really wanted a b&0 but with the v1 only in 40" and no 46" and actually preferring the looks of the compose which I also got a good deal on was a no brainer really.
Beoplay A2
I totally agree with you.
moxxey:You couldn't make it up. My Finnish Artek light shades, which have taken weeks to arrive, have a huge "Made in China" on the box. I guess this is that Scandinavian heritage we've been discussing :)
Mine from 2-3 years back don't have any origin printed on the boxes. There's a certificate of authenticity inside though, which says something like "...manufactured from strictly controlled materials under a rigorous quality control", which I guess is good enough for me in this time and day. Purists won't consider anything not made by Valaistustyö -> 1975 anyway
moxxey: moxxey: tournedos: Grab a suitcase and fly over, Helsinki is a hot destination nowadays (although the current weather is not) No need, they are already here. Pick them up tomorrow! You couldn't make it up. My Finnish Artek light shades, which have taken weeks to arrive, have a huge "Made in China" on the box. I guess this is that Scandinavian heritage we've been discussing :)
You're right... You couldn't make it up!
I'm shocked! Wife and I had plans to buy a couple for our hallway. Well that won't happen now. Going to try and fine used ones that are still made in Finland.
bayerische:I'm shocked! Wife and I had plans to buy a couple for our hallway. Well that won't happen now. Going to try and fine used ones that are still made in Finland.
Just to be clear, I'm not stuck up enough to worry whether they are made in Finland or China. As I've said before, the Chinese make something exactly to the specification supplied. It's not deviated from and I'm pretty confident Artek wouldn't send them to the customer if they had deviated from their specification.
Reading the Ive biography lately, it makes some interesting points about Chinese manufacturing, particularly with aluminium. It was the Chinese factory who suggested a way of producing the unibody MacBook Pro when Ive and Apple were struggling to make it happen. Ive's team flew to China for two weeks to figure it out and it was the Chinese that came up with the solution.
You know, it might shock you, but the Chinese are a very intelligent race :)
Moxxey, please don't make the Chinese the issue here... Jeesus!
I'm talking about transferring manufacturing from Finland (who is in desperate need of it's industry) to a foreign country only to make more money.
Let's not kid ourselves that the manufacturing costs of the Artek lights would be the same in China will we?! I as a customer is still paying the same though. (If not more)
I'm not stuck up. I see what is happening to my country every day. We're supporting other countries industry actively, while we tear down our own. People are asleep, the old working class is being retired, but it's only a question of time before companies in Finland/Europe start realizing there's a workforce in other countries that is cheaper than our accountants, bankers and consultants. I wonder what we all will do then? Wash each others shirts?
I will not buy an Artek product made anywhere but Finland. It's as simple as that. I can be without them if I can't find Finnish made ones. Fine by me.
bayerische: I wonder what we all will do then? Wash each others shirts?
No, we write mobile games to each other.
Well, Artek was recently aqcuired by Vitra, so I can only hope that is where we can place the blame...
tournedos: bayerische: I wonder what we all will do then? Wash each others shirts? No, we write mobile games to each other.
Sounds like a plan.
I agree, bayerische.
When we purchase a premium or luxury product, we are giving recognition to the tradition and craftsmanship fostered by the makers, as well as to how these are expressed as a function of their origin and historical precedents. B&O became great because its founders were present at lectures marking an extremely important turning point in audio knowledge, fostered in Denmark. They used the craftsmanship of Danish joiners to promote their wares.
Similarly, with Artek, it is supposed to reflect Finnish tradition and ingenuity, exemplified through its founders and carried on as a legacy. When spreadsheet johnnies move the production to China, they are betraying that, and as consumers, we should care. I'm happy you care. I have been in the after-market myself, because of this - I'm a great admirer of Aalto, but I don't want the items to come from China, they should come from Finland. (Punkt-***).
Since, in addition, they're not defending Finnish workers' employment through their move to China, only management pay and bonuses, we as consumers don't have to go along with their trickery.
Fun story. Some years ago, Fritz Hansen of Denmark, custodians of the furniture design of a number of famous Danish architects, Arne Jacobsen among them, decided to enter into a collaboration with McDonalds in the UK. McDonalds wanted to put Arne Jacobsen furniture in some of their franchises. FritzHansen said yes. At that point, I got in touch with them, and asked "What the hell are you doing?" And explained why I, as an owner of numerous of their products, objected.The first reply I got was that FH wanted to test the potential of this collaboration, to see if it would open new markets for them. I then told management that it was bound to end in disaster - the furniture selected wasn't designed for the kind of use it would see in a McDonalds, their core customers wouldn't subsequently accept the prices they were charging.
The second reply I got, from their communications manager, was that the collaboration swiftly ended, when it became clear to FH that McDonalds, after securing approval, then purchased fake Chinese FH furniture, and placed that in their franchises.
This would not have happened if FH management had understood what brand custodianship is all about. I have appended the press release FH had to send out, when it all blew up in their faces (see top of post).
I have no allegiance to a specific country of product origin - I would however object to something hand-whittled by British artisans being replaced by machine manufactured items from China.
My question would be - what If it is hand-whittled by Chinese artisans from the same raw materials and to the same high quality standards? Is the brand value in the fact that a product is hand made or that it is "made in your/or a specific country"?
A pragmatic question then is - why is the nationality of a craftsmen important? I suspect the real objection is closer to my first point, but then in a modern mid-sized company, how many artisans are really involved in the production process.......... I suspect the answer in most cases is zero! Most (if not all) things are machined and assembled using automation, jigs and fixtures and those things left to the vagaries of the individual are usually designed in such a way that they can't easily stuff it up!
I believe the differentiating factors are in R&D..... once a design is completed and issued, the manufacturing location can be pretty irrelevant, given the same quality standards are pursued and maintained in the manufacturing process.
Ban boring signatures!
bayerische: Moxxey, please don't make the Chinese the issue here... Jeesus! I'm talking about transferring manufacturing from Finland (who is in desperate need of it's industry) to a foreign country only to make more money. Let's not kid ourselves that the manufacturing costs of the Artek lights would be the same in China will we?! I as a customer is still paying the same though. (If not more) I'm not stuck up. I see what is happening to my country every day. We're supporting other countries industry actively, while we tear down our own. People are asleep, the old working class is being retired, but it's only a question of time before companies in Finland/Europe start realizing there's a workforce in other countries that is cheaper than our accountants, bankers and consultants. I wonder what we all will do then? Wash each others shirts? I will not buy an Artek product made anywhere but Finland. It's as simple as that. I can be without them if I can't find Finnish made ones. Fine by me.
Well said, Bayerische.
And to Moxxey: Please stop repeating yourself... ;-)Everytime this subject comes up, you appearently feel the need to point out how intelligent the Chinese are -and that they can make high quality products....Well - nobody has said that they're not intelligent -or that they can not make quality products...We know that they are/they can. That's not the point.
At least some people care about where things are manufactured - especially when it comes to Premium brands with Premium prices.
Indifference is one of the main reasons we are losing jobs in our part of the World. For my part, I will only buy a car that's manufactured in Europe -(as long as it's not twice or triple the price of a similar made in Asia). I will not buy a Chinese or Korean made car just to save a few bucks, though I know that their quality is good. That's not the point for me.In those few cases we still have a choice, we should think just a little about what we buy (where it's manufactured).
Arguing that you want to support craftsmen and workers in your own country is all well and good if that's important to you, but the insinuation that it's all greedy bean counters who want to make obscene profits is usually far off the mark. It's often not a case of making a little less profit if you outsource, it's a case of staying in business or closing the doors because no one will pay what it takes to make it locally. And for a publicly traded company, that pays dividends and has a stock price, that profit is not sucked up by greedy industrialists, but by the retirement funds and day to day stock purchases of thousands of normal folks and retirees.
In this country it's insane to watch the same people who's retirement funds are heavily invested go tooth and nail against the very companies that they are invested in. The ignorance is astounding. And to take one industry, automobiles, what the companies themselves didn't manage to accomplish with bad decisions the unions are bound and determined to finish, that is tanking the whole company. When the machinists union over here drove Eastern airlines into bankruptcy and out of business, the demented twit of a union boss actually came on the news and claimed it was a great day for the union...yeah, all those machinists, and every other employee of the airlines are now in the unemployment line, that's a victory?
The whole global economic and production game is a lot more complicated than just something the "spreadsheet" boys dream up. I don't think companies like B&O are getting rich, they are trying to survive.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
You have a point Jeff.
But I have never insinuated that it's only 'bean counters' or 'greedy industrialists' that's the problem. And I agree that some Unions and extreme left-wing employees have ruined a lot over the years -(just look at the UK in the 70's -where endless strikes ruined the economy) -but thats another discusssion thats too big to get into here.
My point was mainly to appeal to peoples common sense - and just think a little about what we are buying...I know that unemployed and people with low (and even some with middle-) incomes have to look at the price when they buy.But for those who can afford the more expensive goods, I will just appeal to think a little about it, when they buy whatever they buy.Maybe one could afford a little more expensive TV-set or a little more expensive car - instead of travelling the World every -or every second year in your vacations...(the environment would benefit from that as well...). I'm not an extremely wealthy person - but I have bought a lot of B&O over the years -as well as I've bought German cars, instead of just going for the lowest price every time. -That doesn't mean that I do not look at the price when it comes to other consumables. I have bought lots of stuff made in China, Taiwan, Indonesia -or wherever...
My point is: If just a few percent of the Citizens in the so-called 'western world' started to think a little about jobs, instead of just looking at the price everytime -then we would have come a long way. As You wrote: 'Noone will pay what it takes to make it locally'... Well, luckily SOME will... ;-)
If we all just say: 'I don't give a f..k about where it's manufactured...' - then we have all lost to Asia. Maybe it's Your job next time...
I do see your points, but it's often not as simple as we might like. Usually we, the consumer, don't really have a choice. One example of how I approach things is I support small local businesses when I can. For example, there are two hardware stores in this small town I live in, a Home Depot megastore, and a small locally owned family hardware store. If the small place has it, I buy it there, and I never even compare the price. If he doesn't have it I hit the big store. Most times I eat out, when I do, at non chain restaurants.
A lot depends too on the price of the item. You can convince me to pay say 75 bucks for a sweater made in my country vs. 40 or so for one made in say China or India. But say, can you convince me to pay 10,000 dollars for a pair of Beolabs that would be less than 7,000 if made in China? Probably not. Not to mention that even if it's made in Denmark buying B&O is buying outside my own country as opposed to say, McIntosh or Klipsch.
People over here complain about Walmart a lot, but thanks to stores like them and offshore manufacturing, the "poor" in this country live better and have material goods far in excess of the poor ever had. You could argue that there are more poor because of the outsourcing, but I think it's still a net benefit.
But the globalization genie isn't going back in the bottle so we have to make the best of it.
Making the best of "globalization" is a tricky nut to crack.
Short-term, it makes sense to move manufacturing away from where one perceives workers to be expensive to where it is dirt cheap. However, who is going to buy your products in your "old" markets, if people end up without work, or with increasingly low paid work? That's the long-term effect of the short-term sensible move. When each company does what it perceives to be wise for itself, it also seems to hope that other companies won't do the same, in order for the required purchasing ability to be maintained.That's clearly what's been happening in Europe, or the USA. Purchasing power is plummeting. The short-term thinking companies then declare that they are going to compensate for the shortfall by marketing their wares in "emerging markets" or to the ultra-rich -- abandoning their core customers in the process.
Not all companies think like this, fortunately, and I believe that it is crucial for premium brand companies to avoid falling into this trap. However, as Jeff points out above, there are shareholders who demand a return, and quick-fix management has found a way of making the spreadsheet look good, while long-term ensuring the death of the brands they are in charge of.
When management compensation is tied to how the shares perform, the incentive to find short-cuts is amplified. Over the past two decades, many brands have disappeared or been decimated, because of a focus on how the shares perform, as brand cachet is whittled away to make the shares perform.
Some premium brands have avoided this trap. The LVMH-group is a case in point (yes, some manufacturing of the lower priced items takes place in low-cost regions, but they try to keep it secret. Meanwhile, their statement products continue to be made at point of origin, in accordance with heritage and brand legacy).
Of course, it's extremely difficult to ignore manufacturing costs that are a small fraction of what they would be at point of origin. But what will be the final outcome of this process: will consumers ignore that the origin is virtual and the manufacture is smoke-and-mirrors? Or will the premium brands simply lose their cachet, and become run-of-the-mill?
Are you OK with buying a Chinese made BMW 5-series car? They're being exported from China ...
I'm following Jeff's cue. Every great brand started out small, often in a shed, barn or shop, and took off from there. So start looking for the people who are doing that today, and start looking where you are. Support the smaller hardware store, support the local bakery, the furniture makers, tailors, etc. Use the internet to find them (I bought my latest pair of skis from a hold-out that still makes wood skis, and they are brilliant for criss-crossing the mountains where I live away from the prepared tracks. The makers have become a world name, among those who look for this kind of product excellence - and I feel I'm supporting something important.)
In B&O's case - is the point of origin important? It's part of the equation that makes up a luxury/premium brand. If the Danish heritage and origin is found to be unimportant by new consumers, because the product excellence is brilliant regardless of where it's manufactured, then there isn't a problem.
In essence, we are buying an expression that borders on art when we buy into premium -- and protecting the elements that make consumers believe it is art, is important in order to drive the price to a premium point. If I come to believe I'm buying a knock-off, then my willingness to pay at premium disappears. And that's a huge challenge that hasn't been properly addressed when a consumer receives products he's looked forward to owning, only to find that his Finnish Artek is Made in China.
Steffen: And to Moxxey: Please stop repeating yourself... ;-) Everytime this subject comes up, you appearently feel the need to point out how intelligent the Chinese are -and that they can make high quality products....Well - nobody has said that they're not intelligent -or that they can not make quality products...We know that they are/they can. That's not the point.
And to Moxxey: Please stop repeating yourself... ;-)
Everytime this subject comes up, you appearently feel the need to point out how intelligent the Chinese are -and that they can make high quality products....Well - nobody has said that they're not intelligent -or that they can not make quality products...We know that they are/they can. That's not the point.
Get a grip guys. It's so easy to wind you up, frankly.
Steffen: I will not buy a Chinese or Korean made car just to save a few bucks, though I know that their quality is good. That's not the point for me.
I will not buy a Chinese or Korean made car just to save a few bucks, though I know that their quality is good. That's not the point for me.
You're not. You'd be buying an Finnish Artek product, which is made in China. There's a difference. That's the point. I'm not buying a light shade designed and made in China, it's a Finnish product. The guys above believed it was made in Finland. My guess is, most of the components for your European car are probably made in China - you just aren't aware! Which is the entire point here. You don't even know what is and isn't made over there.
I just found it hilarious that we had a thread talking about heritage and prestige, then these Artek light shades ship with "Made in China" on them (which was as much as a surprise to me, as I also believed they were made in Finland). Sums up pretty much everything to me, despite your passionate replies.
Yes, support local, non-chain, restaurants, baristas, etc.
Support local people who have a passion, dream, and vision.
And also your local artists and bands.
BeoNut since '75
For many many items I don't check where it is manufactured.
But something as Finnish as Artek being manufactured in China just boils my piss.
Jeff, you are very correct about the workforce is a huge part of the problem. People now a days think they should get "rich" from standing in a workshop... Well I wish life was that easy.
Industry wages in Finland are off the chart, but at the same time we cannot only blame the workforce. A company's demise is not only/always due to expensive labour, there's poor management, as with the US airline industry there were too many competitors on the market, simply too diluted. Now you have the big 4 left, right?
I see it, as "a way to survive" is often the result of the above. It's simpler to move the production to Mexico/China/Thailand etc... than to really get a grip of the real problems.
I'd say the biggest losers is us. By us I mean whatever country an industry is leaving.
I'm self employed, if I was suddenly to only have foreign workers that wouldn't speak a word Finnish or swedish I would fast be without customers. Not only the language would be the issue here, it would surely look suspicious on the whole for my customers.
For me national pride comes into the equation. And as with Moxxey's lights I feel ashamed that they're not made in Finland. I know Moxxey says he doesn't care, but I do, having grown up with the brand. Heck I live 200m from a private residence designed by Alvar Aalto.
Europe and the US is due for a rude awakening. May I suggest the documentary "Inequality for all" for our US members.
bayerische: For me national pride comes into the equation. And as with Moxxey's lights I feel ashamed that they're not made in Finland. I know Moxxey says he doesn't care, but I do, having grown up with the brand. Heck I live 200m from a private residence designed by Alvar Aalto.
I didn't say I didn't care they *weren't* made in Finland. I said that if they are up to the quality and specification they are supposed to be, which Artek clearly thinks they are, then I "don't care" that they had "Made in China" on the box, now they have arrived. ie. I'm not sending them back for that reason :)
I too thought they were Finnish. I too was surprised they have a big "Made in China" on the box. I can take a photo if you like, for your enjoyment? :)