ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Guys, I have a question for you.
I have my Beomaster 4500 back from rebuilding by Benny and it is a fantastic hit.
That said before I sent the Beomaster 4500 to Benny, he told me my Beomaster 2400 was far and away a better sounding amplifier.
In a few weeks I will be able to judge for myself, but in the interim, is there any valid reason I should really anticipate being more impressed by my rebuilt Beomaster 2400 than I am currently with the Beomaster 4500?
If so why?
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Well, I guess that it is because the older Beomaster has simpler, discrete circuits. It is widely acknowledged that the Sanken modules don't quite cut the sonic mustard when compared to more traditional technology. They are not bad, but I have always been disappointed in amps using them. That '4500 of yours is quite a mystery. You have a Mc Intosh for heaven's sake!
Jacques
Agree about BM2400. There is something I cant put my finger on with the transistor amps and the sound.
My re-capped M75 are my precious diamonds.
chartz: Well, I guess that it is because the older Beomaster has simpler, discrete circuits. It is widely acknowledged that the Sanken modules don't quite cut the sonic mustard when compared to more traditional technology. They are not bad, but I have always been disappointed in amps using them. That '4500 of yours is quite a mystery. You have a Mc Intosh for heaven's sake!
Hi Jacques,
I agree, there is much to be said in favour of the older, more traditional design…… although it takes a whole lot less time to repair.
And the mystery of my Beomaster 4500, it truly was wonderful….. but the warm, soft, velvet-like sound is gone, replaced by a very decent, if slightly bright sound. I really do like the sound of my rebuilt Beomaster 4500, but it isn’t what it used to be….. and I didn’t expect that it would.
As for the McIntosh, yes sir I sure do have a McIntosh 2255, but not just any 2255, one 100% rebuilt by McIntosh Laboratories. (This rebuild included a brand new shipping box, which is bomb-proof and easily must cost the factory $100.) There is a LOT to recommend a 500 watt amplifier that had zero difficulty in powering 18 speakers at the same time.
Piaf: There is a LOT to recommend a 500 watt amplifier that had zero difficulty in powering 18 speakers at the same time.
There is a LOT to recommend a 500 watt amplifier that had zero difficulty in powering 18 speakers at the same time.
Mc Intosh gear is very highly regarded this side of the pond, but overly expensive. I was just dreaming possessing one of them - valve or transistor - in my teenage years! I still do, but they are even dearer nowadays
By the way, how does one get the f next to the stars?
chartz: Piaf: There is a LOT to recommend a 500 watt amplifier that had zero difficulty in powering 18 speakers at the same time. Mc Intosh gear is very highly regarded this side of the pond, but overly expensive. I was just dreaming possessing one of them - valve or transistor - in my teenage years! I still do, but they are even dearer nowadays By the way, how does one get the f next to the stars?
McIntosh makes superb equipment and to this day it is all made in Upstate New York with the highest quality parts available and with absolutely no outsourcing.
And yes, it is very, very expensive. My 2255 amplifier sells on eBay used, not rebuilt, for more than I paid for it, a LOT more than I paid for it. Why? Because their stuff tends to last forever.
Sure I had a switch burn up on me and lamps have burnt out, but otherwise they go on and on.
I have said this before, but McIntosh sells the steak, Bang & Olufsen sells the sizzle….. and I like the sizzle, the styling, and in most cases the sound.
As for the “F,” I thought you’d never ask. It was a promotion, BeoWorld was promoting their gold membership and the first X-number of people that signed up, became “Founding Members.” I think it was 100 people, but I could be wrong about that.
I remember when I bought my 2400 new, the salesman told me I should really buy the 2200. I didn't because I thought the 2400 looked better and wanted the remote, but he was completely correct! The 2200 really is a forgotten amplifier - almost hand made and superb quality sound. Same basic circuit design as the 4400, AM and FM radios, and plenty of power. Not seen one advertised for a while but they also sell for nothing most of the time.
Peter
Well, I very much like my Beomaster 2000 too. The 2400 is really a 1900-2 plus remote, I found the empty PCB section in my 1900-2 when I repaired mine!
chartz: Well, I very much like my Beomaster 2000 too. The 2400 is really a 1900-2 plus remote, I found the empty PCB section in my 1900-2 when I repaired mine!
Jacques,
I really appreciate the fact that you genuinely like your Beomaster 2400, which gives me great hope and expectation for my restored Beomaster 2400.
I got my Beomaster 2400 in a package deal in order to get a near (very near) flawless Beogram 4002. As such initially I had no use for the Beomaster 2400.
In a very odd unintended setup, I found that my Beomaster 2400 could play through the speaker controller I used with the McIntosh 2255. It back-fed through the controller which was fine on the surface, but the 2400 would get really hot as it ran into the McIntosh even when off.
The McIntosh could have cared less but the Beomaster must have struggled considerably. When I found out what the back-feeding entailed I disconnected the BM 2400 from the trio of speakers the McIntosh powered.
We can safely say that it was this same configuration (with the McIntosh departed for the factory) that damaged my Beomaster 4500. Although Benny told me the Beomaster 4500 had badly over-heated it was repaired in less than a day and strangely enough did not require a single capacitor replaced outside of the power supply and the bad IC.
Technicians do not always like explaining things to non-technical people like myself, so I never got a real picture of what was wrong with my Beomaster 2400. However the basic assessment was there was not much wrong, nothing whatsoever out of the expected and no overheating.
Now I know it overheated, as I felt it, but that had something to do with the bias circuit pot. That and a power supply rectifier. Two light bulbs also bit the dust in transit.
So I have to assume in spite of my view that the 2400 was in dire straights, it wasn’t all that bad, but still needed rebuilding. Even the tone, balance, treble and bass pots were in good shape, which shocked Benny…. or so it seemed reading between the lines.
I feel a little foolish for over-reacting, but comforted at the same time that the back-feeding didn’t seem to damage the Beomaster 2400, whereas it did the Beomaster 4500.
If nothing else the Beomaster 2400 is certainly more hardy than the Beomaster 4500.
Lastly, as I have mentioned numerous times I never was all that impressed with the sound quality of the Beomaster 2400. It wasn’t bad, not at all, but not “special” in any way. Kind of boring, if that makes any sense whatever.
So I am now really excited at the prospect that after being rebuilt, I will share in the pleasure your Beomaster 2400 gives you, Peter, and of course Søren.
We’ll see.
Piaf:McIntosh makes superb equipment and to this day it is all made in Upstate New York with the highest quality parts available and with absolutely no outsourcing.
McIntosh amps. powered a little outdoor rock concert that took place in Upstate New York in August, 1969: Woodstock.
Today's useless audio trivia tidbit.
Hardly trivia, you are talking HISTORY!
Piaf: Hardly trivia, you are talking HISTORY! Jeff
Right
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Well, Bob brought back some memories, summer of 69, I was a soldier, driving a 50 ton Centurion Tank, the discotheques was just starting in DK, We were listening to the first hits from Creedence, of course Stones, Jimi Hendrix, there were a concert in the small Danish city Holstebro, Miriam Makeba was there, or (1970), I am not quiet clear on that. We were smoking some strong tobaccos at that time. We got some small reports from Woodstock on the telly, but mostly we read about it in the news papers, and dreamed about being there. Oh yes 69 to 72 was the end of my youth, after that it got serious with work, responsibilities wife and later on kids. Sweet memories.
Off topic I know, but we are waiting for the BM 2400
Hey Søren,
Not off topic at all! Certainly a lot more interesting than my saying, yet again, that Benny is still working on it. (And he is.)
Nice story Søren. When I found out that the actual site (which of course was Bethel, NY, NOT Woodstock, NY) was only a 2-hour drive from New York City I just had to drive up to visit the Woodstock Museum at Bethel Woods there now. To sum up, using the vernacular of the day, GROOVY!
I have a “strange” problem with my Beomaster 4500. I selected audio tape 1, it came on and immediately shut down.
I can push any source button I want and nothing. Tried the remote and it doesn’t do anything either.
The FM section still works, stations change either using the MB 4500 or the remote and if I select CD with the remote the Beogram 4500 starts playing, but the BM 4500 does not.
Any ideas on what has happened? I mean this BM 4500 was doing GREAT, and now this. :(
Hi Guys,
This just in from Benny who will be shipping out my Beomaster 2400 tomorrow.
“Jeff,
Your 2400 was a lot cleaner than I expected and that is why the repair price (not including shipping) was less than average. Over all it is in superb condition. Probably the best I have ever seen. There was evidence of over heating, but all bad components have been replaced.”
Suffice to say I am pleased with what Benny had to say about my BM 2400.
The repair costs came in quite a bit under estimate, so clearly my 2400 was not nearly as bad off as I had thought.
It did over-heat, I didn’t need anyone to tell me that as I first smelled the burning and then felt the heat fins and they were HOT.
Naturally with the right channel coming and going and the left with its heavy bass issues, I assumed the over-heating must have done some serious damage. It didn’t.
Now all I have to do is WAIT for the USPS to do their “thing” and then US Customs to store my Beomaster for a week or so.
I would be truly remiss if I didn’t say how excited I am to soon have this unbelievably dependable amplifier back!
Piaf:Now all I have to do is WAIT for the USPS to do their “thing” and then US Customs to store my Beomaster for a week or so.
Why would US Customs be concerned with packages leaving the country? Or do you mean Canadian?
Hi Bob,
Customs in ANY country are more concerned with what is coming in rather than what is going out.
So trust me, I have had my troubles with Customs Canada…… like when they thought my absolutely, and I mean absolutely 100% flawless Beogram 4002 was a BOMB! What those idiots did to my turntable was simply unbelievable. Just thinking about it has me heading for the Maalox.
US Customs, at least from my experience has been more benign. They have done no damage (so far) just seem to hold things for an eternity sans purpose.
International shipping is not for the faint at heart!
Piaf:like when they thought my absolutely, and I mean absolutely 100% flawless Beogram 4002 was a BOMB!
Probably due to smashing performance.
//Bo.A long list...
Why use USPS if the service is so bad?????
I can send a Beomaster or a Beogram, UK to US or Canada, door to door in 3-4 days, sometimes less! This is with FedEx or UPS economy services.
I have just checked prices and for, say, Beomaster 7000 type the costs are £60 with UPS and £65 with FedEx Express. Maybe less if you search around, and no grief from customs. Is the same service not available US - Canada and return??
Regards Graham
Well smash it they did and with extreme prejudice. As to the performance, the band played on….
joeyboygolf: Why use USPS if the service is so bad????? I can send a Beomaster or a Beogram, UK to US or Canada, door to door in 3-4 days, sometimes less! This is with FedEx or UPS economy services. I have just checked prices and for, say, Beomaster 7000 type the costs are £60 with UPS and £65 with FedEx Express. Maybe less if you search around, and no grief from customs. Is the same service not available US - Canada and return??
Hi Graham,
Trust me on this, with shipping I have become expert.
After that last fiasco with my BM 4500 going in the wrong direction and then spending 10 days or so in Miami, I promised Benny and myself that I would never, but NEVER use Canada Post/USPS ever again.
When my BM 2400 was ready to go I checked UPS and FedEx whose rates were quite similar BUT about $110 more, EACH way!
It ain’t rocket science, you fill in the fields for box dimensions, weight, and delivery address with ZIP Code and you have the rate quote, I tried them all.
But there is more, UPS and UPS alone requires a “brokerage service” which is an additional chuck of change which escalates dramatically as the insurance number rises. And if that were not enough, with UPS especially there is ALWAYS Customs Duty, whereas with Canada Post/USPS almost never has duty charged.
I did the math, $220 more for shipping, brokerage fee which is like 20% of insured value AND Customs Duty….. so I swallowed my pride and shipped Canada Post.
I trust that answers your question. Thanks for asking.
It seams like all the big carriers has different prices for different countries, surprisingly all has the same prices, more or less, in the same countries.
Prices for international shipping from Mexico or Canada are nearly the same, but international from the US is cheaper, in Europe there are big differences in shipping from DK and UK/Germany, DK very expensive, UK/Germany cheaper, From DK its a money saver, to cross the border to Germany and ship with DHL from there.
Whenever possible I ship from the US using USPS, cheaper than the UPS and Fedex, last one was a letter with documents to Thailand, USD 8.00.
Small package 0.5 Kg to DK USD 11.00, arrived on day 3. The documents to Thailand are still under way, now 2 weeks.
Hi Søren,
You are 100% correct and these price differences can be maddening.
Martin used to be so considerate that when shipping my equipment back to me following repair, he would ship from Germany saving a huge amount of money.
I don’t know why Denmark is so expensive, but it is. Probably taxes.
I don’t like Canada Post/USPS but they are by far the cheapest. Plus their tracking can either be über efficient or worthless: package actually physically delivered BEFORE it even shows it in the country.
I am just resigned that shipping will be painful with damage likely, high cost, and SLOW service.
So I pack my treasures insanely, to the point you could drive a truck over the box sans damage. But that doesn’t stop Customs from opening the box up to inspect it and then cavalierly tossing everything back in sans the slightest thought for the item’s safety.
The way I look at it, it the item arrives undamaged, it is a blessing, not an expectation!
There are horror stories I've heard about using UPS to send something as benign as a board game to Canada from the US. A used game sold for $30 with $20 for shipping may command a "brokerage fee" of $55 to $100. That's ridiculous.
On the other hand, I shipped a cartridge to Jacques via USPS from Florida to France. He had it in less than 2 weeks. Cost: $6.
Hi Rich,
The horror stories about UPS are real.
My Beocord 8004 was “lost” in their own warehouse for an entire month and when it arrived the glass was broken. I heard the broken glass at delivery and insisted the UPS driver watch me open the box. Yes, I got paid for that one.
However the brokerage fee is a UPS feature, supposedly it is to guarantee that we pay the duty, which IS ridiculous, as if we don’t paid the UPS driver at the door, they won’t leave the package.
USPS and Canada Post have their own annoying traits. Specifically when Benny sends me my Beomaster 2400 it will have to go to Miami and they send it by truck.
Then it sits in US Customs for “storage,” but it is hard to get around a government agency.
And Canada Post, there is an outfit for you. They check the package in at Richmond, that takes a day or so. Then off to Customs Canada for another day.
THEN they send the package to Victoria, which in my most recent case arrived at 7:05AM this morning, BUT they won’t deliver it until Monday. Why? Who knows?
I also watched the postal clerk at the Canada Post office fully drop my Beogram 4002 (the suspected bomb) on the floor, a drop of 4’. After which she grunted and complained bitterly about the weight and slammed the box on the counter, hitting her own hand and she SCREAMED at me as if it were ALL my fault.
The idiot seller left the platter in place and let me tell you after the “bomb” incident coupled with the careless clerk; it didn’t do my formally perfect 4002 any good.
I got the scratches on the dustcover off, but it took an entire day of wet sanding.
Shipping, another word for torturous nightmare!
Piaf: joeyboygolf: Why use USPS if the service is so bad????? I can send a Beomaster or a Beogram, UK to US or Canada, door to door in 3-4 days, sometimes less! This is with FedEx or UPS economy services. I have just checked prices and for, say, Beomaster 7000 type the costs are £60 with UPS and £65 with FedEx Express. Maybe less if you search around, and no grief from customs. Is the same service not available US - Canada and return?? Hi Graham, Trust me on this, with shipping I have become expert. After that last fiasco with my BM 4500 going in the wrong direction and then spending 10 days or so in Miami, I promised Benny and myself that I would never, but NEVER use Canada Post/USPS ever again. When my BM 2400 was ready to go I checked UPS and FedEx whose rates were quite similar BUT about $110 more, EACH way! It ain’t rocket science, you fill in the fields for box dimensions, weight, and delivery address with ZIP Code and you have the rate quote, I tried them all. But there is more, UPS and UPS alone requires a “brokerage service” which is an additional chuck of change which escalates dramatically as the insurance number rises. And if that were not enough, with UPS especially there is ALWAYS Customs Duty, whereas with Canada Post/USPS almost never has duty charged. I did the math, $220 more for shipping, brokerage fee which is like 20% of insured value AND Customs Duty….. so I swallowed my pride and shipped Canada Post. I trust that answers your question. Thanks for asking. Jeff
If I booked directly with UPS or FedEx their prices would be exorbitant. In the UK we use one of several booking agents such as www.interparcel.com or www.parcel2go.com. These companies use UPS, FedEx, ParcelForce and others to collect and deliver the service and negotiate preferential rates which are 25-50% or more lower than the courier companies themselves charge.
Do such booking agents not exist in Canada or the US?
Hey guys I have NEWS! Finally!!!
My Beomaster 2400 was delivered today and looks gorgeous! No damage (other than to my wallet as Customs Canada charged me $60 to import my OWN amplifier back into Canada) but the Beomaster is fine.
I let it sit an hour to “warm up” before attempting to hook things up, but when I did zero problems.
Benny said I had a lamp out which confused me as everything was lit. Well apparently not, now there is a STEREO lamp and a nice touch at that. Seven years and I didn’t know it had a STEREO indicator.
I am breaking it in slowly, so I can’t really say how it sounds. Although at minimum volume it sounds just fine.
The FM section seems to have much better reception, but that may have more to do with the extra care I exercised laying out the crappy FM ribbon antenna. One station drifted to a great pop station that turns out is in Seattle and none of my other receivers has brought in that station. (Organized soul that I am I keep a list.)
It does “appear” that the FM radio plays at a higher volume as compared to either the PHONO or TAPE sources. It may have always been this way, or perhaps there is an adjustment, what whatever, I am DELIGHTED to have my “workhorse” back AND undamaged! Praise the Gods!
Once broken in I will report how it sounds all rebuilt. This will take a couple of days.
Piaf:Once broken in I will report how it sounds all rebuilt. This will take a couple of days.
Congrats. Best of luck.
My own experience with BM2400 and BG3404 (MMC20EN) and BC2400: Tuner 3 to 6 dB louder than Tape and 6 to 9 dB louder than Phono.
Thanks Bo and Rich,
Rich; I was particularly interested in the difference in volume, which is noticeable, but glad to hear it is to be expected.
I also noticed considerable improvement in the FM reception, in that I am picking up stations in Seattle I didn’t know existed. The Beomaster 2400 had previously been my poorest in the reception area, not even a close race with the BeoCenter 9000 and Beomaster 4400. Not any longer, now with crystal clear music reproduction. Thank you Benny!
I received the following message from Benny and was a bit surprised that with an amplifier the age of the Beomaster 2400 that NO transistors were replaced, only capacitors.
Does anyone else find this odd, especially from an amplifier that badly overheated from (I believe) an errant refractor in the power supply?
Even though I pose this question, I have zero doubt that Benny knows what he is doing and if a transistor didn’t test to spec, he would have replaced it.
“Jeff, The lamps were weak. During repair I got more than one bad. When they get
old, a small vibration causes the tungsten to break. Radio should sound
better because of circuit adjustments.
I think 20 hours should be enough for break-in time, since only caps were
replaced, no transistors were changed.”
Benny
With the reduction in break-in time, I will be able to really listen to my 2400 mid-day tomorrow. It has been on since 8:00AM this morning giving off the usual light burning electronic aroma, which is, I have learned, also to be expected.
Piaf: giving off the usual light burning electronic aroma, which is, I have learned, also to be expected.
giving off the usual light burning electronic aroma, which is, I have learned, also to be expected.
I think I'm coining a new term: Beosmell.
Rich: Piaf: giving off the usual light burning electronic aroma, which is, I have learned, also to be expected. I think I'm coining a new term: Beosmell.
OMG, I about fell off my chair laughing!
Well the burning smell of new solder and capacitors is not unique to Bang & Olufsen, but you have indeed coined a new word: Beosmell. Good job!
I wonder if McIntosh will have McSmell….. or would McDonald's object do you think? Possibly not.
Actually when I had my McIntosh 2255 rebuilt it didn’t give off any burning odor, but the pre-amp sure did with the on/off switch burnt up.
Humor aside, if I was rating this “aroma” (if such a thing were even remotely desirable) the Beomaster 2400 is at a .5, the Beomaster 4500 a 1, and the gold medal winner, the Beomaster 4400 a FULL 10.
Thankfully this electronic barbeque doesn’t last.
Beosmell huh? Damn clever!
Piaf:Humor aside, if I was rating this “aroma” (if such a thing were even remotely desirable) the Beomaster 2400 is at a .5, the Beomaster 4500 a 1, and the gold medal winner, the Beomaster 4400 a FULL 10.
So the official "Beosmell" rating goes from 0-10. Good to know for the future.
BO: Piaf:Humor aside, if I was rating this “aroma” (if such a thing were even remotely desirable) the Beomaster 2400 is at a .5, the Beomaster 4500 a 1, and the gold medal winner, the Beomaster 4400 a FULL 10. So the official "Beosmell" rating goes from 0-10. Good to know for the future.
Beosmell, being a highly technical science required a metric-based numeric value grading scale. Rich coined the name while I ever so modestly provided the intricate and exact grading scale, and I am delighted to be of such service. [Please note this is merely an attempt at humour!]
Piaf: BO: Piaf:Humor aside, if I was rating this “aroma” (if such a thing were even remotely desirable) the Beomaster 2400 is at a .5, the Beomaster 4500 a 1, and the gold medal winner, the Beomaster 4400 a FULL 10. So the official "Beosmell" rating goes from 0-10. Good to know for the future. Beosmell, being a highly technical science required a metric-based numeric value grading scale. Rich coined the name while I ever so modestly provided the intricate and exact grading scale, and I am delighted to be of such service. [Please note this is merely an attempt at humour!] Jeff
I was thinking it was binary: either there or not there. But a scale from 0 to 10 works for me.
Oh Rich,
I fear beating this non-issue to death, but binary? There or not there? That don’t work.
The Beosmell my Beomaster 2400 currently makes is subtle, mild, and inoffensive. The Beosmell my Beomaster 4400 was like setting an auto tire on fire IN THE HOUSE!
Am I exaggerating? Maybe a little, but NOT by much!
Jeff less talking about smells and more reviews, I've been hanging out for months for this :)
FYI the volume of my BM1900 tuner is significantly louder than the tape and phono inputs. I always worried about it but apparently in some countries the FM transmission is just at a very loud volume.
Drew