ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Dave Farr: Have you got a centre speaker set-up with the stereo width box yet?
Have you got a centre speaker set-up with the stereo width box yet?
No, I haven't found that yet. And Frede's re-manufacture is out of my financial league I'm afraid. I'll keep looking, but I'm not holding my breath!
I'm ordering those electrolytics, quite bulky - 25X49 mm for the 47μF - so they will fit nicely with the existing brackets. I'll fit an SCR polypro for the tweeters.
Jacques
Dave Farr: Hi again Jacques, I've just had a play around with my cubes and Beovox 5000's. The effect of the cubes is actually much more noticable than I first remembered. I adjusted the midrange selector on the back of the BV5000's from 1 through to 5. When you're close to the cubes, there appears to be a slight increase in midrange at each step up, which is much more noticable at distance from the main speakers. I also unplugged the cubes and the effect then immediately becomes apparent. Without them, the sound from the BV5000's is great but quite flat, then once the cubes ar eon, the midrange comes alive. The midrange becomes much more clear and listening to music or voices becomes easier on the ear and less difficult to differentiate as the lower frequencies don't dominate. I always found voices got a bit 'lost' on FM radio but with the cubes it's crystal clear and less difficult to make out what people are actually saying! I think you'll be pleased. Have you got a centre speaker set-up with the stereo width box yet? Dave.
Hi again Jacques,
I've just had a play around with my cubes and Beovox 5000's. The effect of the cubes is actually much more noticable than I first remembered.
I adjusted the midrange selector on the back of the BV5000's from 1 through to 5. When you're close to the cubes, there appears to be a slight increase in midrange at each step up, which is much more noticable at distance from the main speakers.
I also unplugged the cubes and the effect then immediately becomes apparent. Without them, the sound from the BV5000's is great but quite flat, then once the cubes ar eon, the midrange comes alive. The midrange becomes much more clear and listening to music or voices becomes easier on the ear and less difficult to differentiate as the lower frequencies don't dominate. I always found voices got a bit 'lost' on FM radio but with the cubes it's crystal clear and less difficult to make out what people are actually saying!
I think you'll be pleased. Have you got a centre speaker set-up with the stereo width box yet?
Dave.
My experience exactly - play the cubes by themselves and you can hear just a little fizzing really. But add them to the 5000s, and a world of difference. Also tried them with RL60s and they make a difference there as well!!
Peter
I'll keep the topic dormant until new caps are fitted and the Cubes are in place.
Thanks for your comments, any further information is of course welcome here!
I just can't keep quiet, can I?
I had an email from Tim about the sound of Beovox 5000 speakers. According to him, what I hear is indeed the speakers as they should sound. I will discard a possible capacitor issue nonetheless and install the Cubes before a final judgement is pronounced.
Anyway, they look really great in my listening room!
The new capacitors are here!Quite bulky as expected, in all 250 gr. Those Mundorf electrolytic caps are certainly not a joke.
As a matter of comparison, here's the SCR 8µF and the electrolytic.
Woofer removed, you can see the odd plastic bags around the glasswool pads. I had never seen that before.
You can see internal bracing and the midrange driver's box.
Old components. Only the 50µF were about right. The 4.7µF measured 6µF and 7µF with high ESR values (about 4-5 Ω). No wonder treble was odd.
The two 8µF measured 14 and 17,7µ with a 6 ohms ESR.
With new caps, a bit of steel twisting to adapt the clamps to the new cans. The 47µF were actually a bit bigger, but the 68µF were the same size as the old ones. There:
I'm now listening to them again for the first time.
They sound very different! I can now hear the Beolab 5000's character again.
Gone is the veil I had before, and treble is back. I'm not going to say they are bright speakers, no, but they now sound correct.
I had to lower midrange level one notch too.
There is no placebo effect here, because what I measured (bad cap values and high ESR values of ALL caps bare the 50µF) is really objective, and listening only confirms that.
The other piece of good news is that they are now almost able to image, but the cubes will tell more about that.
An interesting link in the old forum - there you can see Frede's setup that Peter mentioned earlier.
Can anyone tell me the value of the cap inside the Cube please?
chartz: Can anyone tell me the value of the cap inside the Cube please?
At least in my Cubes, the cap says: "Wicon - For cross over - 8uF 25V Peak - Type ECI Bipolar".
Prepare to remove each grille before you find where the cap is!
Hi, it's been a while!
Thanks for the photo, it's almost very useful . Come on, tell me which it is!
The good news, I've got the caps already!
Funny thing, I've just thrown a pair of those away! They measured 17µF!
Update: after a few hours running-in listening, I can confirm that everything is in order, they sound good. Voices are particularly beautiful.
They are meant to work against a wall, or bass lacks extention. It reminds me of classic AR speakers which had the same characteristic.
I'm rather impressed by the Peerless alnico tweeters (MMT-225) which produce a lot of energy (once the 7 ohms series resistor has been suppressed ), with perhaps a slightly curtailed upper bandwidth. But the caps are made of very thin aluminium, and I suspect that the sheen comes from them, which in effect makes these tweeters cone/dome units!
Interestingly, Visaton produces such tweeters nowadays; however, sensitivity is lower because they use a ferrite magnet. The dimensions are oddly the same as the old one. They are 8 ohms, so they theoretically are no replacement in Cubes. However, I doubt it would make a huge difference. Let Frede talk about that!
Perhaps our friend Rich could give his impressions on this tweeter, because he has classic McIntosh speakers which also use it - a lot!
The sound is especially gorgeous with the Beomaster 5000 tuner and a good uncompressed public radio station.
I suggests you cote the trebble and the midtone drivers and replace the capacitors in the filter. You should also replace the cable. The internal cable from the filter to the bass driver and the external cable. Use at least 1 mm2.
These few changes will change the sound a lot.
/ Frede
classic: I suggests you coat the treble and the midtone drivers and replace the capacitors in the filter. You should also replace the cable. The internal cable from the filter to the bass driver and the external cable. Use at least 1 mm2. These few changes will change the sound a lot. / Frede
I suggests you coat the treble and the midtone drivers and replace the capacitors in the filter. You should also replace the cable. The internal cable from the filter to the bass driver and the external cable. Use at least 1 mm2.
I'm happy and honoured to have you here Frede!
I already replaced the capacitors, to great effect!
What coating agent do you use then?
No, I haven't yet replaced the cables which are in mint condition with zero ohmic resistance.
But I agree that replacing caps improves sensitivity.
I can't find the LS50 product.
chartz: Perhaps our friend Rich could give his impressions on this tweeter, because he has classic McIntosh speakers which also use it - a lot!
Perhaps you meant Jeff?
Rich: chartz: Perhaps our friend Rich could give his impressions on this tweeter, because he has classic McIntosh speakers which also use it - a lot! Perhaps you meant Jeff?
Oh dear. Another friend then.
chartz: What coating agent do you use then?
I've done the Mod Podge tweak to untreated paper cone drivers to good effect. I was really pleased with what the tweak did to some S40s.
(I don't talk about it much here because I'm sure some people think it's sacrilege.)
Anyway, Mod Podge is just PVA (white, Elmer's) glue that dries clear.
Don't know the LS50 coating, but didn't Martin mention the same material in a different thread?
Hi Rich,
I'm listening to Beethoven's trio n°7 right now - wondrous music that is - and here these old speakers really shine. No dome or plastic cone gives this impression of rendering the true woody sound of acoustic instruments. Perhaps what I hear is coloured speaker units, I don't know, but that is the kind of sounds I remember from childhood speakers with elliptical woofers and cone tweeters on which I enjoyed listening to FM radio.
But then, voices are just beautiful as well.
Or perhaps we are just used to more modern, clinical hifi and it's fun listening to a characterful speaker like this one.
Anyway, it is fun!
Returning to other speakers is weird. Are they more accurate?
Really, I didn't expect such a change after new caps (which proved to be defective).
I'm ready to believe coating makes a difference. Why didn't they do it in the first place?
chartz: But then, voices are just beautiful as well. Or perhaps we are just used to more modern, clinical hifi and it's fun listening to a characterful speaker like this one. Anyway, it is fun!
I have heard the sound difference you describe, wife loved it.
It largely is a case of what you are used to. My brother gave me some Germany muesli he insisted was the best ever - it hardly resembled the muesli I know and I struggled to eat it.
Picking my 5000s up in October.
Enjoy the fun
Along with a pair of Beovox 2500?
Have you ordered new capacitors?
I've just opened some of the defective ones, and it was not entirely dry in there, but it didn't look right.
Only the bottom one was still okay - only just - there was some electrolyte left (the brown liquid) inside the can. The other ones, whilst not being completely dry, had no liquid left inside. The worst was the one at the top. It measured 17μF and 6Ω.
Unrolling the foils showed exactly that: the worst cap had its paper completely dry, and the "good" one was still wet all along - only just. I suppose smaller caps, just because they are smaller, are more prone to dessiccation than the big ones.
I am sorry - wrong name.
The coating I am using is LTS 50.
(See below)
/Frede
Available here:
http://www.visaton.com/en/chassis_zubehoer/zubehoer/lts50.html
and here:
http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/p/V-5209-LTS50-Varnish/Cone+Damping+Liquid+LTS-50
and also on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coating-liquid-cones-VS-LTS50-Visaton/dp/B00CI65HQQ
Unfortunately for me, the product doesn't appear to be available in the US. I tried ordering it anyway from that amazon.co.uk seller but they said they can't ship the product due to international shipping restrictions. Bummer.
I wonder if there is an equivalent product sold in the US.
-Sonavor
This guy ships Worldwide:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Visaton-LTS-50-Beschichtungsmittel-fur-Lautsprecher-/130818996420#shpCntId
It's mainly PVA /water soluble so I think the UK seller just couldn't be bothered. It shouldn't be a problem shipping this.
It is readily available here at specialist retailers'. So I will get it from a shop, which nowadays is not that frequent.
I've forgotten what real 'shops' are! Mostly I buy via the internet and save money too - even after shipping in most cases. I need to get out more!
Here's a diagram (by Frede) showing what's inside the Cubes. Very little!
In all fairness, there isn't a lot of room in a cube once the 6 speakers are installed. It's a neat little package.
Dave, hi, can you send a photo of your system?
Hi Jacques,
it's in my avatar but I will send to the forum a new picture when my restored Beogram 3000 Thorens TD124 MkII arrives in the next week or two (hopefully). I know it's ready, I just need to pay for it now!
This is how it currently is:
If you imagine the BG4000 being replaced with this - then that's my system. This is my restored BG3000 awaiting shipment to me from Frede.
Very nice!
You have a Transcriptor!
I envy you, I have always craved a TD124, so a Beogram 3000...
I don't have that sort of outlay unfortunately. One day... The Beogram 4000 will do for some time
As Jacques I envy you, As a technician I love the design of the Transcriptor, beautiful TT, The BG 3000 is the perfect addition to your setup. The BG 4000 you can then pack carefully in a wood crate and ship to Mexico you wont need it anymore.
@ Dave: Which RtoR BC model is it we can see in the pic, and is it working ??
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Dave Farr: This guy ships Worldwide: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Visaton-LTS-50-Beschichtungsmittel-fur-Lautsprecher-/130818996420#shpCntId It's mainly PVA /water soluble so I think the UK seller just couldn't be bothered. It shouldn't be a problem shipping this. Dave.
Still unfortunate for me. I contacted two of the ebay.co.uk sellers that carry it and advertise worldwide shipping. It turns out, that is for other products they carry, not this one. Because it is a liquid chemical, they can't ship it to the USA. Oh well. I ran into the same thing trying to order some furniture polish that Leslie recommended. You wouldn't think it would be a problem but apparently things are pretty strict now.
Soren, what's your address? Ha ha. Nice try. I've got 2 BG4000's at the moment. 1 needs the tonearm assembly re-lubed to fix and the one in the picture has a strange problem I need to look at. It was working perfectly then one day it started to turn but then switches itself off again once the tonearm has started to move.
Anyway - yes, I also have the Transcriptor Saturn - an eBay whim that was a great price and a fantastic seller in the UK. It does work but I still haven't set up the vestigal tonearm as it's quite tricky and could take all day! I don't know if you've ever looked at a Transcriptor in the flesh Soren? It's actually not that great as far as build and component quality. It looks like it's been knocked up in someones garage - not like the quality finish of B&O or Michel engineering - I couldn't afford or find a Michel deck to make the system look like the set-up in 'A Clockwork Orange' so made do with the Transcriptor instead.
The RtoR's are a Beocord 1600 and a Beocord 2000. They do work but haven't been serviced like the one you did recently. That thread of yours will help me a great deal.
I can't wait to get the BG3000. It's coming with an Axel re-tipped (nude line diamond) cartridge and I have the correct Gold covered SP stylus too (another eBay bargain that nobody seemed to spot.).
Bizarre. I know people who have said they use it in the US so it must be available from somewhere! I didn't think it would be a problem as it's only 50ml. Are the rules really that strict? How do the US import anything then? Funny how the US are happy to export all sorts of chemicals Worldwide - I've bought all sorts of strange things from there (my wife is from New Jersey) - not that I bought her. I didn't put that very well, though the cost of a wife and family is crippling.
Dave Farr: I've bought all sorts of strange things from there (my wife is from New Jersey) - not that I bought her. I didn't put that very well, though the cost of a wife and family is crippling.
I've bought all sorts of strange things from there (my wife is from New Jersey) - not that I bought her. I didn't put that very well, though the cost of a wife and family is crippling.
You seem to use the "loudness" filter, Dave. Do you?
sonavor:Still unfortunate for me. I contacted two of the ebay.co.uk sellers that carry it and advertise worldwide shipping. It turns out, that is for other products they carry, not this one. Because it is a liquid chemical, they can't ship it to the USA. Oh well. I ran into the same thing trying to order some furniture polish that Leslie recommended. You wouldn't think it would be a problem but apparently things are pretty strict now.
John if you can wait for the LTS 50 until after Xmas, I can try to get it from Germany, ship to DK, then my son or another mule, will bring it to Mexico, I will then bring it up to McAllen TX, and from there ship it to you. I want some myself, and have been surfing for some hours for a US site but no such luck.
Søren Mexico: John if you can wait for the LTS 50 until after Xmas, I can try to get it from Germany, ship to DK, then my son or another mule, will bring it to Mexico, I will then bring it up to McAllen TX, and from there ship it to you. I want some myself, and have been surfing for some hours for a US site but no such luck.
That works for me Søren. I'm not in a rush but would like to get some. I'll send you an email or private message to work out the details.Thanks!
Double post due to internet hackers or somethibg - very strange things happening with the internet today!
Yes, I use the 'Loudness' but not the high and low filters. In my room, I prefer the sound. It's quite an open room with tiled floors and for my ears, this works best.
Hello!
So does anyone know how to apply the coating agent? I was thinking circular motion, but how many coats? Where do I stop?
I have found this video:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8YZxj9w0G-c
Also, how do I dust the top tweeters of the cubes without damaging them?