Downsizing from Beoalb 5 to Beolab 20 - Questions regarding Digital connection (Toslink) of Beolab 20

Fellow B&O enthusiasts

 

I’m currently running my Beolab 5 in Beo4 mode with SPDIF input directly from a macmini. All my music is stored in Apple Lossless (ALAC) format. As I’m living in a appartment in the city without a huge livingroom I’m having the idea to downsize my speakers to Beolab 20. The goal is to have the best solution regarding sound quality. The speakers are not connected to a TV, therefore I will sell my Beovision 6 (final edition with HDMI inputs) as I’m not watching TV anymore (currently only a Beocenter 2 and an AppleTV are connected).

 

Questions: Is someone of you already having Beolab 20 connected via Toslink? Does it make sense to connect the Beolab 20 via Toslink or is Powerlink enough?

 

Happy to discuss

I believe Toslink would be the best option as the digital signal will enter the BL20 DSP unaltered. But unlike BL5, BL20 have no volume control and you need a much better digital volume control than the one of iTunes/Mac (as it may degrade the signal quality and in my experience it does not have enough steps). So you would need to install an add-on to iTunes or to change your player (options include e.g. Audirvana+, JRiver).

You will not be able to connect your Mac directly to your BL20 with PowerLink or RCA (except if you use the low quality headphone out from the Mac, something you don't want to do with BL20). So you would need a DAC with volume control. But then your DAC will convert the digital signal into analogue, then the BL20 will reconvert into digital before the DSP and then again to analogue thereafter, whereby the signal may be somewhat altered (similarly and probably for the same reason, some people have indeed experienced a lower sound quality using PowerLink compared to SPDIF with their BL5). But with an excellent DAC with volume control (options include e.g. Naim DAC V1) it may be just fine.

Just my opinion, others may disagree. But I hope this helps.

Perhaps consider waiting for the BeoSound Moment? It might have toslink outputs or WISA (not sure how or if it affects sound quality).

Very good point indeed, BS Moment seems to have Wisa (but no Toslink/SPDIF).

However note that although navigation through your music library with BS Moment opens exciting new possibilities, it is very different from iTunes (or other players for Mac), so it depends on your needs/preferences.

Maybe i have to add some additional content - i'm running Audirvana+ on the Mac (with buffering for jitter correction) and Cambridge DacMagic Plus is the "digital preamp" (from USB to SPDIF) for the Beolab 5. The Cambridge DacMagic Plus is also feeding the Beocenter 2 with analog audio for Masterlink distribution. The Cambridge is able to control the volume, but not with a remote control.

Can I connect the Beolab 20 with Powerlink for volume control and feeding the audio files via Toslink?

 

AFAK the digital out of the DacMagic Plus is passthrough only, so it can serve as USB-Toslink converter but it is unaffected by the volume control which only works on the analogue out.

And AFAK contrary to BL5, BL20 do not include any volume control, so having a double Toslink + PowerLink connection will not help.

With your current setup, you can do one the following:

- Mac -> USB -> DacMagic Plus -> Toslink -> BL20 and control the volume with Audirvana+

- Mac -> USB -> DacMagic Plus -> analogue RCA -> BL20 and control the volume with the DacMagic Plus

- Mac -> USB -> DacMagic Plus -> analogue RCA -> BC2 -> PowerLink -> BL20 and remote control the volume through the BC2, but I fear that this path will not help enhancing the signal...

 

carlito:

Questions: Is someone of you already having Beolab 20 connected via Toslink? Does it make sense to connect the Beolab 20 via Toslink

 

Hi,

When I did the sound design of the BeoLab 20, I connected my MacBook Pro's Toslink output directly to the 20's.

The only thing I would warn you of is to be aware/wary of is the relative level management of your music vs. the signal sounds (i.e. beeps and "you've got mail"). It's a bit disconcerting to be listening to quiet background music, and then get a full-scale BEEP when an email comes in. 

Chers

-geof

Geof,

Very interesting comment, thanks.

But how did you control the volume in the digital domain (in my experience the iTune or Mac volume control does not have enough steps and may tend to somewhat degrade the digital signal at low levels)? Which player were you using?

Many thanks for the advice!

Sebastian

PS: you can setup the Mac in order to only get music on the external speakers and the system sounds remain with the internal Mac speakers (at least it works in my setup with an USD DAC, but maybe not with Toslink)

js:

But how did you control the volume in the digital domain (in my experience the iTune or Mac volume control does not have enough steps and may tend to somewhat degrade the digital signal at low levels)? Which player were you using?

js:

PS: you can setup the Mac in order to only get music on the external speakers and the system sounds remain with the internal Mac speakers (at least it works in my setup with an USD DAC, but maybe not with Toslink)

There is an plugin call soundflower which enables the normal keyboard sound control for toslink devices.

Geoff,

Many thanks for the insight, much appreciated.

By the way, would you by chance have any comments/recommendations/warnings as far as using solely Audirvana+ (or similar like JRiver, Amarra and the likes, but neither iTunes nor the Master Volume of the Mac) for digital volume control when using USB or Toslink?

Thanks again,

Sebastian

Dear all,

Thanks for your input and sharing your experience. As i realised that the Beolab 20 is not that easy to drive independently i will keep the Beolab 5 and will move again with these two 61kg beasts. Maybe my new neighbors will not agree on this...

Cheers

Carlo

Just invite them over - first thing when you have moved in

MM

 

I understand your decision. In addition to being an outstanding speaker, the BL5 is also very convenient to be connected digitally, with (i) an SPDIF connection which in my limited experience seems to be more widespread than Toslink and (ii) more importantly, an integrated remote controlled volume control.

Actually I can reformulate the question in my previous post above as follows. Which setup did B&O have in mind (and now recommend to the customers) when designing the BL20 as a digital speaker but without volume control?

AFAK no B&O audio player has a Toslink output and not many (if any) third party digital players/servers/streamers/renderers (whatever the name, be it from a HiFi brand or a Mac) with digital output include a convenient, very high quality digital volume control/dithering. To me convenient means: (i) remote controlled and (ii) easy and intuitive for any tech-averse member of the family.

I believe B&O would attract more customers willing a pair of digital speakers if they would provide guidance on this.

Don't misunderstand me: I believe B&O has done an incredible job, I love the BL20 and I would really, really love to own a pair. But I have not found a way to connect it digitally and to conveniently control the volume.

Thanks,

Sebastian

This question needs an answer, please!

Why the general change from coax to optical digital input???

Was it because it was easier for Geoff to connect his MacBook, when he did the sound design

Maybe we aren't supposed to use the digital-in at all???

MM

Geoff Martin:

Hi,

When I did the sound design of the BeoLab 20, I connected my MacBook Pro's Toslink output directly to the 20's.

The only thing I would warn you of is to be aware/wary of is the relative level management of your music vs. the signal sounds (i.e. beeps and "you've got mail"). It's a bit disconcerting to be listening to quiet background music, and then get a full-scale BEEP when an email comes in.

Chers

-geof

Geof,

That probably means you had volume control in the digital domain on the Macbook. What SW were you using on the MacBook?

Oops. Already answered.

Adding to my previous post discussing integrated digital volume control. Actually I think the same applies to analogue connections.

Beolab speakers are wonderful and B&O should help more customers to integrate these in non-B&O set-ups including e.g. a third party player and DAC with fixed line out. I firmly believe that it would help so many more customers to buy Beolab speakers if we had either:

- more Beolab speakers with integrated remote controlled volume control, both for digital (when applicable) and analogue inputs, or

- a B&O pre-amp with RCA analogue input, remote controlled volume control, and PowerLink output with the on/standby trigger.

(I am not even mentioning that such pre-amp could include a DAC or, more importantly, the same Speaker Groups function as the Beovisions in order to accommodate for different listening position with several speakers).

Beolab speakers are wonderful, why does B&O not help more customers to buy more of these?

(Again, don't misunderstand me: in my different locations I have 5 full B&O audio set-ups all purchased new, so I love the brand and the products. But my needs are changing, I am becoming more a Beolab customer than a B&O customer, and I am facing complex issues to integrate Beolab speakers with my changing needs).

Geoff, could you relay these questions within B&O? Please...

Thanks,

Sebastian

Geoff,

If you are still reading this thread. I would understand that you may not answer all these questions on behalf of B&O. Nevertheless may I ask whether you could answer these two ones:

- what is the volume-controlled set-up that B&O had in mind (and now expect customers to set-up) to use BL20 digital?

- would it be feasible to have the abovementioned pre-amp built by someone to use BL20 analog (I have a couple of spare Beomaster 7000 and 4500 but I doubt their pre-amp sections are transparent enough to link a high quality DAC and BL20)?

Many thanks,

Sebastian

Millemissen:

This question needs an answer, please!

Why the general change from coax to optical digital input???

Was it because it was easier for Geoff to connect his MacBook, when he did the sound design

Maybe we aren't supposed to use the digital-in at all???

MM

Optical isn't bad. You won't get signal distorsion from other cables and you can buy longer cables without signal degradation. And since it´s optical it can be made thinner and lighter. 

js:

By the way, would you by chance have any comments/recommendations/warnings as far as using solely Audirvana+ (or similar like JRiver, Amarra and the likes, but neither iTunes nor the Master Volume of the Mac) for digital volume control when using USB or Toslink?

 

Hi,

Sorry for the late reply.

I have quickly tried all of the of the players you mention there, but I have not measured any of them to find out how they're implementing their volume controls. Two immediate questions that come to mind are

- do they have 16 bit or 24 bit (or something else) output (regardless of the file's bit depth - a gain control is a re-quantisation, so you need more bits to accommodate the processing

- are they dithering the signal correctly when they re-quantize?

 

However, your question is interesting - I'll stick a volume-control-behaviour-measurement-party it on my list of rainy-day-things-to-do (that sounded sarcastic - but it's not... I'm serious.)

Cheers

-geoff

 

 

js:

I understand your decision. In addition to being an outstanding speaker, the BL5 is also very convenient to be connected digitally, with (i) an SPDIF connection which in my limited experience seems to be more widespread than Toslink and (ii) more importantly, an integrated remote controlled volume control.

js:

Actually I can reformulate the question in my previous post above as follows. Which setup did B&O have in mind (and now recommend to the customers) when designing the BL20 as a digital speaker but without volume control?

js:

AFAK no B&O audio player has a Toslink output and not many (if any) third party digital players/servers/streamers/renderers (whatever the name, be it from a HiFi brand or a Mac) with digital output include a convenient, very high quality digital volume control/dithering. To me convenient means: (i) remote controlled and (ii) easy and intuitive for any tech-averse member of the family.

 

It's interesting to me that this is an issue for the digital input, but not the line input. Perhaps it's because, typically, the gain control of a line-level signal is typically implemented better in a hardware device (like a stereo preamp, for example) than what we would typically see in free software like iTunes. Another good reason why I should dig into the behaviour of the "high end" SW players like the ones listed in your posting.

 

Cheers

-geoff

 

 

 

Millemissen:

Was it because it was easier for Geoff to connect his MacBook, when he did the sound design

 

I can absolutely guarantee that this was not the case - I have Toslink, S/P-DIF, AES/EBU, HDMI, XLR, and RCA line output from my Mac (via a choice of FireWire and USB sound cards, of course...).

Cheers

-geoff

js:

Geoff, could you relay these questions within B&O? Please...

Already done. :-)

Cheers

-g

Michael:

Optical isn't bad. You won't get signal distorsion from other cables and you can buy longer cables without signal degradation. And since it´s optical it can be made thinner and lighter.

Toslink (we have to be specific - "optical" can mean different things) used to have a bad reputation because it was more prone to jitter than copper connections such as S/P-DIF and AES/EBU. However, that isn't true any more. In addition, jitter can be dealt with using a PLL at the receiver.

One problem with Toslink is that, if you buy cheaper "cables", you get a plastic that is not as transparent as you would like. The result is an attenuation of the light over the length of the cable which could, in a worst-case, start approaching the detection threshold of the Toslink receiver. An S/P-DIF cable can run for about 1 km before you need to start worrying (assuming that you've paid attention to impedances).

In other words, anything can be made poorly. And almost anything can be made well... But you can't make blanket statements like "optical good, S/P-DIF coax bad" or vice versa.

Cheers

-geoff

Geoff Martin:

js:

By the way, would you by chance have any comments/recommendations/warnings as far as using solely Audirvana+ (or similar like JRiver, Amarra and the likes, but neither iTunes nor the Master Volume of the Mac) for digital volume control when using USB or Toslink?

 

Hi,

Sorry for the late reply.

I have quickly tried all of the of the players you mention there, but I have not measured any of them to find out how they're implementing their volume controls. Two immediate questions that come to mind are

- do they have 16 bit or 24 bit (or something else) output (regardless of the file's bit depth - a gain control is a re-quantisation, so you need more bits to accommodate the processing

- are they dithering the signal correctly when they re-quantize?

 

However, your question is interesting - I'll stick a volume-control-behaviour-measurement-party it on my list of rainy-day-things-to-do (that sounded sarcastic - but it's not... I'm serious.)

Cheers

-geoff

Here is something about how the JRiver works.

Please notice the link at the bottom for a corresponding thread about the subject.

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Volume

I guess we will see a 'statement' on volumen controlling from Geoff soon - in Denmark and in Struer there are

quite a few 'rainy days' at the moment

For those, who have been in Struer, and know Venø (the small island with the steak restaurant):

There is so much water there, that they had to cancel the small ferry, which brings you there.

 

MM

 

Millemissen:

I guess we will see a 'statement' from Geoff soon - in Denmark and in Struer there are quite a few 'rainy days' at the moment

You take too long to type MM!

Graham

Sorry - I am not the brightest guy in town

MM

Geoff Martin:

Michael:

Optical isn't bad. You won't get signal distorsion from other cables and you can buy longer cables without signal degradation. And since it´s optical it can be made thinner and lighter.

Toslink (we have to be specific - "optical" can mean different things) used to have a bad reputation because it was more prone to jitter than copper connections such as S/P-DIF and AES/EBU. However, that isn't true any more. In addition, jitter can be dealt with using a PLL at the receiver.

One problem with Toslink is that, if you buy cheaper "cables", you get a plastic that is not as transparent as you would like. The result is an attenuation of the light over the length of the cable which could, in a worst-case, start approaching the detection threshold of the Toslink receiver. An S/P-DIF cable can run for about 1 km before you need to start worrying (assuming that you've paid attention to impedances).

In other words, anything can be made poorly. And almost anything can be made well... But you can't make blanket statements like "optical good, S/P-DIF coax bad" or vice versa.

Cheers

-geoff

Interesting facts Geoff! Just a fun thing to mention, 15 years ago when I was.. 15 I got a Sony MZ-R90 mini disc player for my birthday. It came with a Toslink cable. I did not have any use for it but I found it funny to chew on it (don't ask me why, I don't even know) but I did that and could hear the cable crackling. Skip ahead about seven years. I found the same cable while I was looking for a Toslink-cable to connect between my set top box and my a/v receiver. Surprisingly it worked perfectly. I guess it was good quality :). 

Michael:

15 years ago when I was.. 15 I got a Sony MZ-R90 mini disc player for my birthday. It came with a Toslink cable. I did not have any use for it but I found it funny to chew on it (don't ask me why, I don't even know) but I did that and could hear the cable crackling. Skip ahead about seven years. I found the same cable while I was looking for a Toslink-cable to connect between my set top box and my a/v receiver. Surprisingly it worked perfectly. I guess it was good quality :)

 

You obviously didn't chew on it enough. ;-)

Cheers

-geoff

Geoff Martin:

You obviously didn't chew on it enough. ;-)

Cheers

-geoff

Haha true!  

Geoff Martin:

js:

Geoff, could you relay these questions within B&O? Please...

Already done. :-)

Many thanks, very much appreciated

Geoff Martin:

I don't know if there is a big "winner" in the market between the Toslink vs. S/P-DIF Coax. I see both roughly equally on various levels of equipment. [...] Many (but by no means all) devices have a Toslink output. Many (but by no means all) of those are volume controlled. [...] Currently, I believe you are correct in saying that no B&O Player has a Toslink output. I would disagree with you regarding the third-party devices. I have one on my desk right now that has a disable-able volume control that works quite well.

Fair comments and I am happy to have been corrected. I suppose I have not got a broad enough view on the market and I will do more research.

Geoff Martin:

It's interesting to me that this is an issue for the digital input, but not the line input. Perhaps it's because, typically, the gain control of a line-level signal is typically implemented better in a hardware device (like a stereo preamp, for example) than what we would typically see in free software like iTunes. Another good reason why I should dig into the behaviour of the "high end" SW players like the ones listed in your posting.

It is indeed more an issue for the digital input for the reason you mention (and I am happy that you are interested in testing the abovementioned SW players, thanks for this). In my case there is also another reason: I believe analog solutions are still more widespread and straightforward (but again I should probably do more research): I know I can add a monitor attenuator or a stereo pre-amp between a DAC with fixed line and the BL20 analog input. But except for a Mac with a high end SW player, I still don't know what to do between a HiFi player with a digital output without volume control and the BL20 Toslink input.

All in all I agree with you that there are always solutions both for analog and digital. Bottom line the only thing that I mean here is that a Beolab with integrated volume control is a much more elegant and convenient solution (in other words: a more B&O solution). This would facilitate the integration of Beolab speakers into a wider variety of setups (which some reviews also mentioned is currently cumbersome except for BL5). For customers like me this (or a B&O pre-amp) would add very much value to the new Beolab speakers and this would potentially result in higher sales for B&O.

Again, many thanks for having taken the time to listen and for having provided extensive replies in this thread.

Sebastian

Same here. I really hoped that I could connect an Auralic Aries with Beolab 20 through Toslink without having to use an extra DAC (with an extra control, and so on..). I assumed the sound to be wonderful, coming from Tidal for example. Unfortunately, it does not appear to be that easy. 

Hi Geoff and forum

I have a pair of BeoLab 18s connected in daisy chain fashion to an Autonomics Mirage MMS2A media server and they do sound brilliant.

However every 3 days like clockwork they start making a crackling noise then I reboot the speakers and all is fine again for another 3 days. It is not the cabling or autonomics for sure must be a software thing as the tosh link always remains active.

Any clues, because the lab 20s if their software is similar, may behave in a similar fashion when connected in this way?

Thanks for reactivating this thread.

These questions now come up again, when 'the new big' speaker is mentioned.

Of course people - used to the digital connection of the BL5 - want to know if the connections can be done the same with an improved new speaker.

Which connections this coming speaker will feature, is still unknown - surely there will be PL (analog) WiSA (digital). And we don't know, if the 'big one' will have the built-in volumen control like the BL5.

Some people will certainly want to use it without a B&O setup.

So the question remains:

Will there be a (official) recommendation on how to use the digital (S/PDIF) input (supposedly there will be one) with 3rd party hard- or software-players?

I guess this then would be similar for the BL20 and the other new speakers.

MM

I know a little to much how the structure looks like at B&O.

B&O have designed and developed the Wisa 160watt module together with Wisa Association, and Toslink where included in the "bundled package" from Wisa, like a feature that just where included on the patent Wisa module, and now they struggle with what to say are the meaning with the Toslink without volume control.

(Wisa are a association that consist of many different companies including B&O)

It always like this..

B&O buy off the shelf preconfigured components from third part in many cases, and then they decide what to save or what to let go.

Many times they are to conservative and throwing features or inputs in the garbage can to fast, and realise it to late. -Oh we need a AUX input on the BeoSound 5 after four years of thinking, or we implement Spotify after 5 years. And many other things, like converter boxes for everything.

Or BeoSound 6 , DVD2 (Philips) its another case.. You cant just strip out features and take High-End price on a repacked Alu product with poor SW.

Its old costly conservative thinking sadly, and always have a backup answer for all weird solutions. And after a while a Mk II model see the light with the feature that everyone asking for from the beginning.

B&O are not and will newer be Apple , so do not go in to the gladiator arena and try to wrestle with the big boys, do what you are god on doing. The core is picture and sound, in a designed package, not any fancy Software OS that are programmed and outsourced to a company in India.

So step out from the old basement and see the light, and don't come up with some bad transparent answers in the future, itś better for the company reputation!

I understand Geoff, that you are like a top chef at a middle class restaurant with limited budget. In your dreams you wish to only work with premium meet/fish/beverages, but the owner just say; this is what you will have to work with, and do the best you can with it, so no shadow on you.

My tip for the month to B&O board members and development section.

at least a studio quality desktop solution exists from TC Electronic:

BMC-2

 

http://www.tcelectronic.com/bmc-2/

 

 

StUrrock:

I have a pair of BeoLab 18s connected in daisy chain fashion to an Autonomics Mirage MMS2A media server and they do sound brilliant.

However every 3 days like clockwork they start making a crackling noise

 

Hi,

Of course, it's impossible to say for sure, but I have experienced some audio errors that you might describe as "crackling" as a result of too much attenuation of the light level on the Toslink cable.

In my case, the problem was some combination of:

• a cheap Toslink cable (I've learned that low-quality plastic in the fibre optics attenuates the light over distance)
• a long Toslink cable (see above...)
• a poorly-made termination (I just cut the end of the cable with a pair of wire cutters and didn't flatten/polish it - my fault)

This caused the Toslink receiver hardware on the BeoLab 18 to get enough light to think it had a signal (so it played something...) - but not enough light to actually get a clean signal.

So, I would say that one possible thing to try to fix your problem would be to swap your toslink cable. If you have the problem on both speakers, then swap the one feeding from the source. If you have the problem on the "downstream" speaker only, then swap the one connecting the two loudspeakers.

Then again, this might not be your problem - but it's the first thing I would check.

Cheers

-geoff

I have a pair of bola 20's for sale

They proved too small for my application, is anyone interested?

JR8080:

I have a pair of bola 20's for sale

They proved too small for my application, is anyone interested?

Where are you located?