ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I have been looking for suitable speakers for my Beomaster 4400 in order to “retire” my MC120.2 speakers permanently along with and in conjunction with Fisher XP66 speakers.
I recently found a pair of MS150 speakers here in Canada, re-foamed and very pristine; and should the seller decide to reduce the asking price from the Stratosphere I am thinking of considering this pair.
However it occurs to me that my Beomaster 4400 with its less than stellar rebuild might not be up to the demands of the MC150 speakers.
What I am looking for is BASS which my MC120.2 lack in abundance but with just a hint of the crisp higher ends offered by the 120.2’s.
One of my favorite speakers is the S75’s but with the “potential” of the Beomaster 4400 I was hoping to do better.
In truth I have been actively looking for MS100 speakers, but I just found these MS150’s.
So what do you think?
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Dear Jeff,
You already asked this question a couple of times:
http://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/t/9134.aspxhttp://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/t/2010.aspx
Did you try any of the speakers, we suggested?
Martin
Hello Martin,
My mother died of Alzheimer’s January 31st. The fruit does not fall far from the tree.
I read carefully my two previous posts that you submitted and am truly appalled.
Please accept my apologizes.
What I believe happened was the find of MS150’s right here in my neighborhood erased (in my mind) the considerable responses to my previous inquires. However that does not explain my repeated questions.
As such there comes a point in all of our lives when we must accept that we are done; in my case over stayed my welcome.
I know I have been more than redundant in my concern for my BM 4400 and my contempt for my MC120.2 speakers.
As I do not know how to prevent myself from asking redundant questions in the future, as moderator, I am sure you have the ability to disconnect all my connections with threads of interests. Just do it.
P.S. In answer to your question, no, none of the speakers you suggested were either available or of real interest, other than the MS100's and I didn't find any of them available.
Jeff,
Don't get me wrong, you are most welcome to ask.If you are looking to add bass to your setup and don't want to go the "disco-scene"-way, which often puts music power before looks,maybe you should think about adding a subwoofer to your existing setup instead.
Hi Jeff,
I have never listened to the MS150, but they should really be beefed up MC120s, so if you enjoy everything about the MC120s but bass, you should be content.
I remember that AdamS swore by them, he even demoed them at the Wigwam show a few years back.
My choice with the 4400 are the M70s which deliver plenty of bass. They are more laid-back than the MC120s as you might remember, but they really make my large lounge (40 square metres, high oak ceiling) shake on the right notes. The heart pound at the beginning of The Dark Side of The Moon is impossible to listen at full level because everything rattles in the whole house (linear switch on) and the BM4400 has plenty of power to cope!
The M100s are mighty. There are several pairs for sale here in France, but the sellers are too greedy, asking for silly prices.
About your memory... Do not worry, it's just that dear old Martin has a prodigious one!
Jacques
Having heard some MS150s I can assure you there do have a decent amount of bass! They are obviously extremely large however so do bear this in mind when choosing! Also, your Beomaster 4400 will be fine with them. Tim Jarman uses some with his Beolab 5000 system and it really does sound impressive indeed.
Like Jacques said M100s are excellent, the prices in the UK are no better really (when they do come up at all).
Hope this helps somewhat,
Ben
Hi
I must agree having a pair of M100s myself and MS150s the M100s give out the most bass if thats what your after, there is a very nice pair of M100s on ebay France, maybe another option would be beovox 3800 a lot cheaper to get hold of but not to sure if they will take full power of 4400.
marc
marc: Hi I must agree having a pair of M100s myself and MS150s the M100s give out the most bass if thats what your after, there is a very nice pair of M100s on ebay France, maybe another option would be beovox 3800 a lot cheaper to get hold of but not to sure if they will take full power of 4400. marc
Can you put a link for those as I've looked and can't find any M100's anywhere in Europe!
Dave.
Hi Dave!
Here... The ones on ePay have disappeared again, they come and go...
Jacques,
No matter how good they are, that price is pretty ridiculous!
Ben: Jacques, No matter how good they are, that price is pretty ridiculous!
You mean ludicrous, preposterous.
chartz: Hi Dave! Here... The ones on ePay have disappeared again, they come and go...
Ah yes, they are the ones on Leboncoin I posted on the 'ebay the right way' section a while ago. I couldn't find any on eBay as previously mentioned.
And there too... More like it, but still rather dear!
I think I paid £180 for mine - but it was a while ago.My MS150s were free but I had to have them repaired substantially!
Peter
Wow, if all I ever wanted was a response to a speaker question, then with this posting, I have hit the jack pot. Thanks to all!
Martin: I know I am free to ask, it is just that this has happened previously and indeed IS embarrassing….. although you, as always, were ever so perfectly polite. And I thank you for your civility and patience.
Jacques, I appreciate your input….. all of it. With my less than stellar memory it seems to me that it has been established that the M70 speakers are quite similar to the S75 speakers, and if that is true the latter are readily available on eBay and cheaply, whereas the M series is seldom seen.
And Jacques, totally off the subject, it appears that you studied English in the UK. In reading your post, it is the first thing in the morning, even before having a cup of coffee and I about fell out of my chair with your reference to your “large lounge.”
Certainly there is nothing wrong with your word choice, but it is so very, very British. In either the US or Canada your 40 square meter lounge would be called a living room. In North America the word “lounge” would more commonly apply to the seating area in a bar where drinks are served.
Mark, Ben, and Dave the price is definitely the problem for me. The pair currently on eBay is located in Quebec and the seller wants CN$1,500 for them and CN$500 for shipping. That is an outlandish CN$2,000 for a pair of re-foamed, but not rebuilt speakers that belong to the seller’s father. This shop features Pioneer, Sanyo, and Marantz equipment, not B&O.
My present set-up “works” for me, after a fashion. I must assume that my particular pair of MC120.2 speakers are defective, whereas they product nice, bright treble notes, the bass, which DOES exist, is muted, hollow sounding, shallow, and generally lacking depth. This is where the second pair of Fisher XP66 makes up for what the MC120.2 speakers lack.
The ideal situation would be to find a pair of M-series speakers locally and listen to them prior to purchase, plus saving big bucks on shipping.
Thanks to everyone for your input. I am extra slow to learn (apparently) but the information appears to have finally gotten through to me that my BM 4400 can handle any of the M-series speakers, which in all likelihood; any M-series speaker would produce sufficient bass for my personal taste.
Now all I gotta do is find a pair not priced in the Stratosphere.
I am surprised to hear that your MC120.2 pair of speaker are not adequate. I have a pretty good collection of Beovox speakers that include the MC120.2, M100.2 and MS150 (plus MS150.2) speakers. I also restored a pair of MC120.2 speakers for a friend. Both sets of MC120.2 speakers sound good. Of course they can't directly compete, side-by-side, with the larger speakers but they definitely hold their own. I'm wondering if your MC120.2 set don't have some polarities swapped internally (where the drivers connect to the cross-over circuit). They definitely shouldn't sound tinny and lack any bass. Sometime, when you get a chance, you should open them up and post some detailed pictures of the internals so we can compare them to our working sets.By the way, in my opinion, I think the M70, M75 or M100 series would go best with the Beomaster 4400 (visually and sound-wise). I have connected a pair of S75 + S45.2 sets to my BM4400 before and that combination produced a nice balance of sound. The MS150 and MC120 series looks better with the BM6000 and BM8000.
Jeff, in the aforementioned lounge of mine, my MC120-2s actually do produce lots of bass. Upstairs, in my "large study" bass is as you describe, almost non-existent. Funny thing, treble is also recessed upstairs, and I have lots of it (a bit too much even) downstairs.
So yes, they are very room-dependent and that explains your dissatisfaction (I guess).
Go for the M (aka Monitor) series if you can with the BM4400, they were made to work together - as seen in period catalogues. In his recent thread, Søren admitted to liking the M70s so much that they had become his favourite boxes.
My MC120.2 speakers have had something of a troubled history. When they first arrived eons ago, they sounded terrible, just God-awful. I asked about that here on BeoWorld and had all sorts of good suggestions.
Just on a whim, I pressed in the overload buttons which were sticking out and like magic these speakers were transformed. But it didn’t last.
I was happy enough with the MC120.2 speakers in our former home’s dining room powered by my BM 4500. But then we moved and I initially used the MC120.2 speakers with my just arrived BM 4400. That was an unmitigated disaster as the BM 4400 had a collage of issues/problems so I switched back to my BM 4500 and it died.
Things weren’t looking too good.
I had the speakers re-foamed and re-capped, but neither made a significant difference. It was then suggested that I seal the fret shell to the speaker box and that made the main improvement. At least then there was some air movement from the woofers.
Polarity…. Good suggestion, checked this twice upon previous BeoWorld suggestions.
Jacques made a fine suggestion that these speakers are sensitive to placement and indeed they may be, but they sounded lousy in my “lounge” and not good in our dining room. The MC120.2 speakers sound best in the bedroom which they currently reside, but as Jacques describes them vibrating and rocking his room, well that is NOT happening here.
If I listen to the MC120.2 speakers alone, they sound OK, a bit hollow and in a word BORING, but not too bad, and as I have repeatedly said, I do appreciate the crisp highs. However when I engage the ancient Fishers in addition to the MC102.2 speakers OMG the bass that is missing is glaring.
I will just keep looking for a M70, M75, or M100….. I think we all enjoy the challenge of the search.
I will bring up my MC120.2 to my main system (BM8000) and compare them to my fully refurbished M100's.
Report will follow.
//Bo.A long list...
Hi Bo,
That will be very helpful AND appreciated! I look forward to your report.
The big speaker test!
Speakers:Beovox M100: Re-foamed & re-capped (kit from Dillen)Beovox S45 (first type from 1976): In original condition. Beovox MC 120.2: In original condition.Beovox Penta: Re-foamed mid-ranges and re-capped with audio-grade caps.
Receivers:Beomaster 4000 in original conditionBeomaster 8000. Re-capped with film caps in signal path & upgraded OP-amps.
Sources:RadioLogitech squeezebox classic (playing FLAC)BG 8000 with MMC 20CL playing Bob Dylan Tempest (180gr vinyl)
Started to with MC120.2 and the sounded OK. Nothing special. Then switched over to the M100's, Wow!, muck clearer an detailed, much deeper & contolled bass, much smother treble.
Then I connected a pair of S45. Much more like the M100 in sound stage. More open and and airy than the MC120. Also with stronger bass.
Then the Pentas, which I normally use in another room and I regard to be among the best B&O speakers. Compared to the S45 and M100 they sounded muffled, but the Pentas have a very narrow sweet-spot so once you are there they sound very nice. The sound stage more like the MC120 than the s45 or M100
So the MC120.2 did sound OK, but definitely need some tweaking with the tone controls to sound to my taste. The S45 Impress as always, really amazing for its size. The Pentas is a really good speaker but needs to be positioned well regarding you listening position.
The M100....its when you do a test like this you really understand what magnificent speakers they are. So detailed, so dee and controlled bass, so sweet and smooth treble, how untrained they can play at any level. My current favorite.
I have to agree with you. The S45s and M100s do sound very similar except the S45s have more limited ultimate bass. What they do have however is very accurate and the roll off does not detract from the listening experience. I would say that for the vast majority of listening and room sizes, the S45 must be the speaker of choice.
I did have S120s (out on long term loan). They (in MC120.2 guise) were rated by the curator of the B&O museum as the best balanced of the passive B&O speaker range. I always found them bass light and also found they became harsh at high volumes but put part of this down to replacing the bass drive units rather than refoaming them.
I love my M100s though I do get the feeling that they are not performing quite as well as they used to - they get little exercise! As you say, the real difference is the quality of the bass which gives real detail, certainly compared to Pentas. The Pentas are extremely pleasant to listen to though, with no real vices and go very loud without becoming harsh.
I get similar results with the M70s. Now, what would the M100s sound like at home is something I would most definitely like to fathom!
I'm now listening to Extreme Ways and the amount of bass is prodigious.
And listen to that Modest Mussorgsky – Pictures at an Exhibition (arr. J.V.A. Guillou): I. Gnomus
My next purchase?
Bo,
Excellent presentation, well organized, and made for clear understanding of the speakers you tested.
Over the years I have posted questions, on occasion redundant questions in regard to the speakers I have and those I am thinking of acquiring. And I wish to compliment you as you have absolutely answered ALL my questions in this regard.
It was especially useful for me (personally) to have the S45 speakers included as a reference point for your speaker comparison. Only last night I stopped in my tracks to admire my S45.2 speakers, thinking WOW what impressive and accurate speakers these are.
It is not that I had not noticed this many times previously, but it was just the moment and the selection of Desi Arnaz and his Orchestra that caught my attention. (It is no secret that the S45.2 speaker is Peter’s favourite.)
I think virtually everyone, definitely including me, loves the S45.2 speakers for the gem that they are.
Your comments in addition to Peter’s only confirm what I have long suspected the MC120.2 speakers are at best a mediocre speaker.
I agree they sound OK and add that they would be delightful in an elevator providing soft background music.
The highs are, in my opinion, rather good, but there the kudos end. The mid-range is muffled, really disorganized, and in a word: sad.
The bass, well I have beaten that area to death, it is just hinted at. On top of all the above, I apparently have a poor version of this less than stellar series.
The M100’s definitely sound like what I am looking for. May I assume you prefer the M100’s over the M100.2 speakers? Or are both good?
Thank you Bo for your helpful dissertation….. really started the week off right!
Mine are the M100.2s. The drivers also changed slightly apparently. Mine are the ones on Beocentral.
In my long search for a pair of speakers for my Beomaster4400 I have become SOLD (by you guys) on a pair of M100 speakers, which sound like exactly what I have been looking for, on so many levels.
OK, that said, I have searched for ages and find no M100’s up for sale in North America. So patience is a virtue, yes?
That brings me back to the pristine pair of MS150 speakers available right here in Canada.
This is the third time the seller has put these speakers up for sale on eBay at CN$1,500 and with the “market speaking” might be “open” to a more reasonable price.
Personally, reading his long lists of copy, I don’t see this as likely, but IF he were open to suggestion what would be a reasonable price for unrestored MS150 speakers?
No doubt the crossover network with need recapping, but they have been re-foamed.
I ask, JUST in case the seller decides he has asked too much and then I would like to be in a position to offered and educated number.
I doubt this will ever come to fruition, but if it did, I like to be prepared.
Failing any reasonable offer, I will be back to my search for a nice pair of M100’s!
MS150s are probably better speakers than the M100s. Their frequency response is remarkably flat. However they were built for the BM8000 and B&O at that time did seem to design speakers for amplifiers. The M100 was specifically designed for the BM4400 and I think suits it well. I still have M100s but sold my MS150s.
Why thank you Peter. I doubt that either a MS150 or M100 would be a “bad” choice.
Right now all this is, is idle talk as with no one commenting on a reasonable price (for both parties) for MS150 speakers I have more or less determined that they are worth about CN$500 to me. Somehow I don’t see the seller reacting favorably to such an offer.
As such I will most likely just continue my search for the more reasonable match for my Beomaster 4400 in M100 speakers.
As always, your commentary is most appreciated.
CN$1500 sounds pretty hefty even though they maybe aren't that common on the other side of the pond?
I usually see refurbished pairs be put up for sale for what is equal to CN$400 to CN$600 here in Denmark - that goes for both MS150 and M100. So to me, CN$500 sounds like a reasonable offer taking into consideration that they probably still need a new set of caps.
I sold a refurbished (caps not included) pair of MS150s for what is equal to CN$400 back in 2010, and I could probably have sold them for even more based on the amount of interest.
In 2012 I bought a pair of unrefurbished MS150.2 in pretty good condition for 500 DKK (CN$100), which I think was a very reasonable price.
/Dennis
Hi Dennis,
B&O products are indeed much more common in Denmark/Europe in general than they are in North America.
The asking price of CN$1,500 shows a complete lack of knowledge on the part of the seller, who owns a used electronics business.
The seller communicated with me briefly saying these speakers were his father’s and his dad say they are “the best quality in the world.” He thus based his pricing on his father’s glowing testimonial.
This utterly “unrealistic” basis for pricing is why I have little hope of negotiating a more reasonable sale price.
I attempted to explain that while these speakers may indeed sound “great” now, that they will need recapping some time in the near future, but this information only seemed to annoy the seller.
I don’t want to “build” this into a bigger story than it is, but I for one, have considerable concern about a seller who owns a retail shop specializing in used electronics: amplifiers, pre-amplifiers, speakers, turntables, cassette players, etc. and who has NO idea that any of these items ever needs recapping.
Thank you for your input which is most appreciated.
I do remember after having mine repaired that the repair shop was very impressed with them. He had listened to them and had tested them following this to see just how good they were. He reckoned that to get something similar new would cost over £2000 - that was some years ago!
It is difficult to put a value on vintage items (things no longer produced). Especially when an item, like the MS150 speakers, is not something that comes up for sale very often in North America. Uncommon items like that can sometimes fetch high prices or go for very low prices. I lucked into getting three sets of the MS150 series speakers over the last couple of years. I won't say what I paid but they were very inexpensive as the owners were anxious to dump them. Speakers of that size are very expensive to pack and ship so that plays into the equation when finding them. I saw that seller's pictures of his MS150's. They look really good. They are also the first series of MS150's which have rosewood on the back. I have three different models of the MS150's including that first model. The later ones don't have rosewood on the back. His speakers also have all of the grills and the stands so that is a big plus.As far as recapping, I recapped mine but in checking the old caps, none of them were out of tolerance. I prefer recapping them when I restore them but I wouldn't say it is a must thing to do on the speakers.Bottom line on those speakers is that they look like an excellent set of the first Beovox MS150 series and eventually they will find their price in the market there. It appears the seller has already lowered his asking price a bit.
I have one of my MS150's side by side with my M100.2 speakers and listen to them almost every night. The speakers sound noticeably different but both sound good. I agree with Peter that the MS150's are very balanced. The M100.2 speakers have a little more punch in the face with the bass. That is using a Sansui AU9500 amplifier with the tone controls defeated. I mentioned before but I'll say it again - I would pair the Beomaster 4400 with the M100, M75 or M70 speakers.
-sonavor
Hi Sonavor,
This is all beyond interesting and most enlightening. Thank you.
I too appreciate the look of those speakers on eBay, hence my continued interest. Love the veneer on the backs, nice touch.
In addition as the speakers are in Canada there will be no duty and shipping is slightly less obnoxious.
As I have been “working” on my system problems for a couple of years it is no secret that I just loath my MS120.2 speakers which only have a hint of bass, confused mid-range, but bright upper end and I am anything but confident in the long-term prospects of my ill-restored Beomaster 4400.
Still, the BM 4400 has been consistently behaving for over a year or so and if I could ever find a suitable pair of speakers, I would happily retire the MS120.2 permanently. (For someone living in an apartment with sound insulations issues and who enjoys the flute, they’d be wonderful.)
I also agree the smaller M-series speakers would be a better match for the BM4400.
There is a bit of confusion in regard to the M75 speakers as I have it on trusted authority that they are indistinguishable from the S75 speakers (which I love) but then, if correct, why paid a premium? Plus S75 speakers come up regularly on eBay and I was hoping for something perhaps even better.
In regard to the MS150 speaker pricing, I have been watching these speakers for a couple of months and they are currently listed for CN$1,732.66 or US$1,500.00. How much more could they have possibly been asking for them?
Sigh, I can see the handwriting on the wall, this seller has a grossly exaggerated evaluation of these speakers and we are unlikely to ever come to an acceptable compromise. Some things are not meant to be. Maybe I’ll get lucky and find the more suitable M100 or M100.2 speakers somewhere down the road.
Thanks for the really informative comparisons!
As an “update” on the MS150 speakers with the eBay auction running out for the third time I decided to contact the seller and attempt to reason with him vis-à-vis his outlandish pricing.
Instant response to “call me” with his phone number. However what he had in mind was circumventing eBay saving him money that he’d split with me.
Well I have no interest in such an unethical arrangement, plus he was “hinting” that he really wanted more than the US$1,500 for the speakers.
I didn’t have the heart to tell him that my offer to him was CN$400. As he said he really wasn’t sure he wanted to sell these speakers (at $1,500 he needn’t worry) I suggested that he might just want to hold on to them.
That ended the discussion.
Back to the search for M100 or M100.2 speakers.