ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Beolab 28s Beolab 9s Beolab 12-3s Beolab 1s Beolab 6000s 2 pairs Beolab 4000s Beovision 7-55 Beovision 10-40 Beoplay V1 32 inch Beovision Avant 32 inch Beosound 1 (CD player) Beosound 3000 Beosound 5 Core Essence MKII Beoplay M5
Razlaw:Following up on the original question of this thread, and expanding it to include the Beolab 5,...... I have read online that the frequency response of the Beolab 5 is 20-20,000khz while the Beolab 20 is 19.5-23,600 khz. Does the 20 really have a wider frequency range than the 5?
I have read online that the frequency response of the Beolab 5 is 20-20,000khz while the Beolab 20 is 19.5-23,600 khz. Does the 20 really have a wider frequency range than the 5?
It is many years newer so it is not impossible. But there is not only Hz to think about but also dB. It might play 19.5 Hz but not at volumes as high as the BeoLab 5 can, at least that is what I would believe.
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
Michael:But there is not only Hz to think about but also dB. It might play 19.5 Hz but not at volumes as high as the BeoLab 5 can, at least that is what I would believe.
This is correct.
If you ignore sound pressure level, a 1" tweeter can be EQ'ed to have a wider frequency range than a BeoLab 5. However, it would only be able to have that response at a VERY low sound pressure level. As soon as you start turning up the volume, you'd have to start pulling back the bass in order to keep the driver within its excursion limits.
So, at a lower listening level, we tuned the BL20 to have a measurably wider frequency range than the BL5. However, if you turn up the volume, the BL5 can play much louder.
For a more thorough explanation of this, see this article.
On the other hand, a difference of 19.5 Hz and 20 Hz is not much (a third of a semitone, give or take...). Neither is 23.6 kHz vs. 20 kHz (2 semitones - assuming we can talk about semitones at that frequency...) No point in getting into a serious debate over excruciating minutiae...
For more info on how we measure frequency range, see this article.
Cheers
-geoff
Thanks Geoff! I so very much appreciate all of the information you provide. I hope you do not mind if I ask another question. My BV7-55 has not had a software update for a few years. I live three hours away from the nearest dealer so the cost of an update can be quite high. Due to no recent updates, I am not able to select 12-3s in the menu. I have my rear 12-3s set as 9s in the menu. I did this as I thought perhaps setting to an ALT speaker would be appropriate and thought the 3s seemed to small. Also, if I replace my front 9s with 20s, I assume the best setting would be to set the 20s as 9s.
How important is it to have the exact speakers in the menu? Would there be much difference in sound if I had the software updated?
Thanks!
That's a good question - especially for all those with 'old' BV's 👍
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Michael: Razlaw:Following up on the original question of this thread, and expanding it to include the Beolab 5,...... I have read online that the frequency response of the Beolab 5 is 20-20,000khz while the Beolab 20 is 19.5-23,600 khz. Does the 20 really have a wider frequency range than the 5? It is many years newer so it is not impossible. But there is not only Hz to think about but also dB. It might play 19.5 Hz but not at volumes as high as the BeoLab 5 can, at least that is what I would believe.
Don't forget about cabinet construction, distortion, damping and all the whistles that go along making hi fidelity. Those definitely play a huge role.
elephant: wonderfulelectric: Rose Gold... I expected at least real gold plating... What !!! You want a watch ?
wonderfulelectric: Rose Gold... I expected at least real gold plating...
Rose Gold... I expected at least real gold plating...
What !!!
You want a watch ?
Watch is solid gold.
Gold-plating is not that expensive except perhaps B&O will need to create a huge electroplating facility to accommodate like what they did for aluminum.
Check out Goldmund. A little too sky high but you get the idea. B&O should at least be moving up. People are spending increasingly more on electronics and luxury electronics are earning money whereas fashion is losing. So why isn't B&O jumping in on that? Perhaps B&O need someone who understand luxury to come do a style editing.
Geoff Martin: Michael:But there is not only Hz to think about but also dB. It might play 19.5 Hz but not at volumes as high as the BeoLab 5 can, at least that is what I would believe. This is correct. If you ignore sound pressure level, a 1" tweeter can be EQ'ed to have a wider frequency range than a BeoLab 5. However, it would only be able to have that response at a VERY low sound pressure level. As soon as you start turning up the volume, you'd have to start pulling back the bass in order to keep the driver within its excursion limits. So, at a lower listening level, we tuned the BL20 to have a measurably wider frequency range than the BL5. However, if you turn up the volume, the BL5 can play much louder. For a more thorough explanation of this, see this article. On the other hand, a difference of 19.5 Hz and 20 Hz is not much (a third of a semitone, give or take...). Neither is 23.6 kHz vs. 20 kHz (2 semitones - assuming we can talk about semitones at that frequency...) No point in getting into a serious debate over excruciating minutiae... For more info on how we measure frequency range, see this article. Cheers -geoff
I am still waiting for the ALT lens to be fully exploited by have an oversized mid-tweeter to go down to below 800HZ. When will that day come? Complete coherence and 180 degrees sound dispersion in the ears most critical listening frequency range. Beyond coaxial.
Jeff: butch1: I am not talking about television speakers and I will stand by my statement,the lab 20s and 5s are the only ones on the list capable of competing with meridian. Let me say, I've not heard the new B&O yet, and haven't heard meridian in a while, but I can believe that you're right. When you get to the B&O products below the 9/20 and 5, there are more compromises made to function to conform to form, although I think for what each is size wise and design they do exceptionally well. But in comparison with a company that puts the function part of the form/function relation as much more important, yeah, I can see where some lower range Beolabs won't be as good sonically. I will also say that, put in a room with the same care and attention to placement and room acoustics, which few in general and perhaps more B&O users on average don't do, they can be better than you think. I've had my old BL8000s set up in a smaller room with good acoustics, the room also had a lot of bass lift due to its size which helped the 8000s a lot, but setup well they sounded far better than even I thought they would. Imaging, depth, and midrange were all stunningly good, which is what a lot of mini monitors aim for. They were like very good minimonitors you didn't need stands for. You made another comment about hearing differences, I dont' doubt that you do, I've heard what I would have described as very large differences between different components. I've also had the sobering experience of seeing my ability to tell these differences go away in controlled tests. I don't know for the items you describe if there are differences that would make them sonically different enough to survive a rigorous test, maybe so. However if so I believe it will be measurable and understandable. Different designers have different ideas, say in digital, as to how the sampling and post reconstruction filtering should be done, and different ideas about noise, power supply design, analog output stages, etc. Some play the game, some do what they do because they seriously believe it's a superior technical approach. And it may be, it just seems to seldom make a truly detectable difference in sound, perhaps because the human ear is not nearly as good a test tool as some electronics, they can detect things people can never hear, very small changes in distortion, etc. But it keeps the arguments and discussions constantly ongoing, so everyone gets an opportunity at an Internet social life! The LP vs. CD brouhaha is still ongoing after30 odd years.
butch1: I am not talking about television speakers and I will stand by my statement,the lab 20s and 5s are the only ones on the list capable of competing with meridian.
I am not talking about television speakers and I will stand by my statement,the lab 20s and 5s are the only ones on the list capable of competing with meridian.
Let me say, I've not heard the new B&O yet, and haven't heard meridian in a while, but I can believe that you're right. When you get to the B&O products below the 9/20 and 5, there are more compromises made to function to conform to form, although I think for what each is size wise and design they do exceptionally well. But in comparison with a company that puts the function part of the form/function relation as much more important, yeah, I can see where some lower range Beolabs won't be as good sonically. I will also say that, put in a room with the same care and attention to placement and room acoustics, which few in general and perhaps more B&O users on average don't do, they can be better than you think. I've had my old BL8000s set up in a smaller room with good acoustics, the room also had a lot of bass lift due to its size which helped the 8000s a lot, but setup well they sounded far better than even I thought they would. Imaging, depth, and midrange were all stunningly good, which is what a lot of mini monitors aim for. They were like very good minimonitors you didn't need stands for.
You made another comment about hearing differences, I dont' doubt that you do, I've heard what I would have described as very large differences between different components. I've also had the sobering experience of seeing my ability to tell these differences go away in controlled tests. I don't know for the items you describe if there are differences that would make them sonically different enough to survive a rigorous test, maybe so. However if so I believe it will be measurable and understandable. Different designers have different ideas, say in digital, as to how the sampling and post reconstruction filtering should be done, and different ideas about noise, power supply design, analog output stages, etc. Some play the game, some do what they do because they seriously believe it's a superior technical approach. And it may be, it just seems to seldom make a truly detectable difference in sound, perhaps because the human ear is not nearly as good a test tool as some electronics, they can detect things people can never hear, very small changes in distortion, etc.
But it keeps the arguments and discussions constantly ongoing, so everyone gets an opportunity at an Internet social life! The LP vs. CD brouhaha is still ongoing after30 odd years.
I don't think Meridians are all that. Having owned the F80 which far underperforms the A8 btw and seeing the prices of the 2nd loudspeakers online.... I have come to find it is a very overpriced brand.
Chris Townsend: butch1: Jeff,over the years I have demoed many CD players,and transports and dacs,in a home setting.I am not interested in reviews and lab tests,my ears are my judge. I still think to this day that the linn cd12 was the best sounding CD player I have heard,but was surpassed by my linn klimax ds,so it shows how technology has involved.I follow the linn path of source first,but that's me.I bought my 9000 as its a piece of art along with 8000s, not for the sound quality. My question to Geoff was,if he has been involved in dsp systems for 13 years with B&o,why have they only got beolab 5 and 20 as full digital active dsp models.B&o expertise in dsp lies with automotive systems at this stage,were as meridians is home based,just my opinion. Also like I have said,I am a B&o owner for years and will continue to be,and if they brought out a system that would be better than my linn exakt,I would change in a flash.I like simple well designed matching systems, that's why I love active designs from B&o,meridian and linn only. If you want a B&O speaker that can match Linn or Meridian, you wait is nearly over.........
butch1: Jeff,over the years I have demoed many CD players,and transports and dacs,in a home setting.I am not interested in reviews and lab tests,my ears are my judge. I still think to this day that the linn cd12 was the best sounding CD player I have heard,but was surpassed by my linn klimax ds,so it shows how technology has involved.I follow the linn path of source first,but that's me.I bought my 9000 as its a piece of art along with 8000s, not for the sound quality. My question to Geoff was,if he has been involved in dsp systems for 13 years with B&o,why have they only got beolab 5 and 20 as full digital active dsp models.B&o expertise in dsp lies with automotive systems at this stage,were as meridians is home based,just my opinion. Also like I have said,I am a B&o owner for years and will continue to be,and if they brought out a system that would be better than my linn exakt,I would change in a flash.I like simple well designed matching systems, that's why I love active designs from B&o,meridian and linn only.
Jeff,over the years I have demoed many CD players,and transports and dacs,in a home setting.I am not interested in reviews and lab tests,my ears are my judge.
I still think to this day that the linn cd12 was the best sounding CD player I have heard,but was surpassed by my linn klimax ds,so it shows how technology has involved.I follow the linn path of source first,but that's me.I bought my 9000 as its a piece of art along with 8000s, not for the sound quality.
My question to Geoff was,if he has been involved in dsp systems for 13 years with B&o,why have they only got beolab 5 and 20 as full digital active dsp models.B&o expertise in dsp lies with automotive systems at this stage,were as meridians is home based,just my opinion.
Also like I have said,I am a B&o owner for years and will continue to be,and if they brought out a system that would be better than my linn exakt,I would change in a flash.I like simple well designed matching systems, that's why I love active designs from B&o,meridian and linn only.
If you want a B&O speaker that can match Linn or Meridian, you wait is nearly over.........
Very interesting... Can't wait!
Anyway speaking of Linn they have such a great upgrade scheme/plan that perhaps B&O should look into developing for the core range. It's high profit margin and not to mention good for the environment. B&O has the sales/maintenance network available to deploy that strategy readily.
In regards to CD player.... No... Digital sources do not sound the same. Download music software and you will quickly realize any change in the filtering method immediately changes the sound quality. Source quality matters but now the source is in the streaming.
Razlaw:Thanks Geoff! I so very much appreciate all of the information you provide. I hope you do not mind if I ask another question. My BV7-55 has not had a software update for a few years. I live three hours away from the nearest dealer so the cost of an update can be quite high. Due to no recent updates, I am not able to select 12-3s in the menu. I have my rear 12-3s set as 9s in the menu. I did this as I thought perhaps setting to an ALT speaker would be appropriate and thought the 3s seemed to small. Also, if I replace my front 9s with 20s, I assume the best setting would be to set the 20s as 9s. How important is it to have the exact speakers in the menu? Would there be much difference in sound if I had the software updated? Thanks!
Really? That surprises me but would solve the issue of whether to have the update done or not.
Razlaw:Really? That surprises me but would solve the issue of whether to have the update done or not.
Razlaw:Dealer confirmed to me today to use the setting for 9s for 20s. Very disappointing to me that B and O do not support 20s on BS3 based systems. I am inclined to forget about getting 20s and just stick with my 9s. I realize there is a great deal of similarity between 9s and 20s but they are different speakers. My V1 recognizes the difference so there must be some difference in how the sound is processed for the two speakers.
mawheele: I found a massive difference going from a BS3 system with my speakers going to a BS4 - it took me by complete surprise. The difference is massive.
I found a massive difference going from a BS3 system with my speakers going to a BS4 - it took me by complete surprise. The difference is massive.
That is exactly the reason, why those who claim that B&O should concentrate on making loudspeakers, are talking nonsense.
The 'audioengine' in the BSys4-based products is a very important part of the new B&O speakers philosophy/experience.
I would suggest that you try telling the BS3 that you have BL5's instead of BL9's if you're connecting the 20's.
The principal reasons for this are (1) latency (the BL20 has a latency that is closer to the BL5 than the 9) and (2) the bass management decisions.
However, note that if you have 20's and a BL2 - the BS3 will then decide to not bass manage to the BL2 if you tell it that it's connected to BL5's. This is also what a V1 would do - so it's the "better" decision to make - however, if you have a BL2 and you want it to help the 20's then you should choose the BL9 in the menus and add about 1.51 m to their Speaker Distance to correct for latency.
Regarding the comparison between BS3 and BS4 (including V1, BV11, BV Avant) - these are COMPLETELY different beasts. The entire audio signal path and its various processing blocks were re-designed from scratch for the BS4 series of devices - so, in my opinion, there's no point in trying to compare them directly.
I will agree with MM on this one,Processor/pre amps etc are one of the most importants aspects in the chain.
You can have the best source and speakers, but the processor/pre amp is the one extracting and controlling the information.
Many years ago i was contemplating changing my linn speakers, I kept them, as they sounded loads better when I changed the pre amp to a upgraded model,it gave the speakers a new lease of life.
Also when you connect beolabs directly to a beosound they sound beter than connecting to a older beovision with bs2 or something.
Razlaw:If the BS4 is such an improvement, that raises another question for me....Would I receive more improvement in sound by replacing 9s with 20s and keeping my BV7, or by keeping the 9s and replacing the BV7 with an Avant?
Says Räuber
Millemissen:Says Räuber MM
Did you compare different types of source (SD. HD) ?
I just received and installed an Avant 55 (on table stand) with a pair of 18 and one 19. I cannot compare to previous Beovision's as it is my first B&O but the picture is much better than my 2 years old Sony Bravia KDL-55HX920. On SD sources, the image is a bit soft (but still very nice) but on HD (settop box) and Blu-Ray (Oppo BDP-105D) the image is truly excellent.
At the moment the Avant is not able to handle a 4K upscaled signal coming form the Oppo, I cannot wait for the HDMI 2.0 firmware upgrade (I understood it should be released this month).
I was blown away by the picture quality of the 11-55 in the shop. Is the 7-55 even better?? Wow.
Razlaw:So you think the 7-55 has a better picture than the Avant? What about a BV11?
Both the Avant and 11 use edge lighting which how ever many generations ahead it might be, is not as good as technology as local dimming used in the 7-55.
The Avant 75 and 85 both have local dimming but don't use as many zones I believe, which is less effective at creating a dark image.
I've seen the Avant picture many times, owned an 11-46 and now own a 7-55. The picture is in a different league trust me.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Chris Townsend:Both the Avant and 11 use edge lighting which how ever many generations ahead it might be, is not as good as technology as local dimming used in the 7-55. The Avant 75 and 85 both have local dimming but don't use as many zones I believe, which is less effective at creating a dark image. I've seen the Avant picture many times, owned an 11-46 and now own a 7-55. The picture is in a different league trust me.