ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hi All,
I have a 2014 Sony Bravia TV, Beosound Essence and a Beoplay S8 and are wanting to hook them all up optimally. The goal is to hear the TV through the S8s when it's on and sometimes when it's off to play music through the S8s via the Essence.
For over an hour now I've been engaged in troubleshooting, but still have problems, so thought I'd seek help.
At the moment, my setup is:
I haven't really played around with speakers for years so I can't remember what acceptable noise is, but there's a fair amount of it.
When an iPad or nothing is connected to the Beosound Essence line in there is not much noise (acceptable) even though there is certainly enough not to have true silence.
When I plug the line in into the Sony TV headphone out though, quite noticeable noise/hum starts - whether or not the TV is on and outputting a signal.
I assume the problem is with the TV's headphone out then, but still this doesn't get me much closer to solving it. The headphone out doesn't seem to have any settings to change, although has volume controllable from the TV.
Short of having another TV, what is my best bet to try to change this? I know this isn't a forum for Sony TV owners but... should I try using the optical digital out of the TV and buy a DAC to connect it to the Essence? Do I need a receiver or another piece of equipment to play with the signal before it goes into the Essence?
Sorry for the rather ignorant question!
BeoNut since '75
Thanks. I am doing that already, so it must be something else.
I plugged an iPad into the 3.5mm to RCA and the hum isn't there - only when it's connected to the TV. But the sound from the TV is fine out the same headphone out when connected through headphones.
I'll try a 3.5mm to RCA connector attached to a cable I know works and see if that solves it - may just be that somehow the cable doesn't connect properly to the TV.
The headphone out is probably not the best output : try to find if there is a line out, or use the digital output with a digital to analog converter...
diisign.com
I ordered a DAC and will try that. I still find it a bit mysterious - noise/hum is present on all the cables I tried from 3.5 to RCA and into the Essence. No noise/hum if I plug headphones straight into the same port though with a 3.5mm jack.
I presume there's something basic that I just don't understand - like the headphone out being somehow different to a line out in a significant way - but for now am stumped.
If you use a digital to analog converter you will not be able to adjust volume with the TV. I don't know anything about the S8 so I don't know if it's like my Beolab 5s where it has its own independent volume control, but this is a consideration if not. Most new TVs in the US at least are doing away with line level audio outputs these days, and even less of them have them variable line level audio outputs so the headphone jack, when present, is typically the best way to get a volume adjustable audio signal out of the television.
I suspect you are getting some sort of ground loop electrically between all the equipment you're trying to connect, not necessarily that your headphone jack on the TV is of poor quality. You need to isolate what is causing this interference with some sort of ground loop isolator or other method. In other words, I believe you can fight it, but without knowing your particular setup, your house wiring and other factors I have no idea how. Make sure to begin with that the cable coming out of the TV is not close to ANY power wires anywhere along its route. If it is, move them apart. The better the shielding on your cabling, the less of an issue this is. Most of these adaptor cables are not heavily shielded and I've had hum appear just from being close to a power cord.
Thanks.
TV, speakers and essence were all plugged into the same surge-protected AV power board. If I unplugged 3.5mm jack from the TV, buzz immediately went. If I plugged 3.5mm jack into iPhone, buzz wasn't there. It does seem likely that the noise is somehow a combo of headphone out and Essence line in, because both headphone out and line in work okay with other products.
I will try with DAC next week when it arrives.
Hi,
would you post the exact type and model of your TV? This would help to see which outpouts are availabe.The easiest way to get rid of the ground-loop noise is an isolator (I don't know the correct english word for this) which looks like this:http://www.amazon.de/Hama-NF-Entst%C3%B6rfilter-Cinch-KHz-vergoldet/dp/B00006JAYQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438930442&sr=8-1&keywords=mantelstromfilter+cinchyou can just put it between the TV headphone output and the essence and it should eliminate the hum. And it's much cheaper than a DAC. ;-)If you use the Essence for Volume control of the Essence and your TV I would use a fixe line output of the TV - if available. As far as I know the Essence MK1 allows connecting an IR receiver, too. This way you could control the volume comfortably with a B&O remote and with the Essence wheel remote.
Thanks, TWG!
TV model is KDL50W700B. It has a headphone/audio out and a digital optical out.
I've played around with all the settings for the headphone out, but that hasn't changed anything. I will definitely try a suppression filter (?) like the one you linked to though.
Sony tv's are know for their bad isolation in audio paths. Any antenna cable connected directly or trough hdmi and a cable box makes a ground loop. Nothing you can do about this, imve tried in a similar setup.
Try to use optical and a dac/converter so the audio is isolated. There is volume control on the essence with the bluetooth know, an ir receiver is also available but this requires a beo4 of beo1.
See this thread: http://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/t/13950.aspx
A DAC will also work, the hum/noise is electrical. Using an optical which uses light as a signal will not let this hum through but you will lose volume control because the TV's preamp is bypassed.
According to the user manual of your Sony TV you can switch the headphone out to audio out with a fixed output level:AUDIO OUT/
Connect your headphones or stereo system to listen to the TV’s sound through the connected equipment.
To listen to the TV’s sound through the connected equipment, press the HOME button, then select [Settings] → [Sound] → [Headphone/Audio Out] → [Headphone] or [Audio Out].
This wouldn't eliminate the noise but you have a fixed volume level you could use for the input of your Essence.
What the AUD cost of the MKII box will be?If I would have any chance to 'upgrade' short of just buying a completely new box?
Thanks for the thorough answers. It's somehow very relieving to know that I'm not alone with the problem and haven't been going about things entirely the wrong way either.
TWG - thanks. I'll try the ground loop isolator AND also see what a DAC does and report back results, eventually. I played around with the headphone vs. audio out and fixed vs variable volume on the TV, but as you say it has no effect on the noise.
elephant - I picked up the MKI with wall remote for under 1000AUD shipped, so am happy enough with this, since I don't have any desire for multiroom or a good excuse for picking up an A9 any time soon. My store is King St, since I'm in Sydney. Thanks for the info though!
MaximL:elephant - I picked up the MKI with wall remote for under 1000AUD shipped, so am happy enough with this, since I don't have any desire for multiroom or a good excuse for picking up an A9 any time soon. My store is King St, since I'm in Sydney. Thanks for the info though!
MaximL: Hi All, Thanks for the thorough answers. It's somehow very relieving to know that I'm not alone with the problem and haven't been going about things entirely the wrong way either. TWG - thanks. I'll try the ground loop isolator AND also see what a DAC does and report back results, eventually. I played around with the headphone vs. audio out and fixed vs variable volume on the TV, but as you say it has no effect on the noise. elephant - I picked up the MKI with wall remote for under 1000AUD shipped, so am happy enough with this, since I don't have any desire for multiroom or a good excuse for picking up an A9 any time soon. My store is King St, since I'm in Sydney. Thanks for the info though!
Since you don't need the volume control, or at least you don't seem to be concerned about that, then an analog to digital converter will be fine if the ground loop isolator doesn't do the trick.
I question if a beovision in a same setup would have the same grounsloop issue? The ground loop in this form is made from tv to speaker. Not tv, esence and the speakers.
Playdrv4me:Since you don't need the volume control, or at least you don't seem to be concerned about that, then an analog to digital converter will be fine if the ground loop isolator doesn't do the trick.
Well, I'd love the volume control, since using the TV remote for everything except volume will be rather annoying. But if it's a choice between not using the speakers for the TV at all because of the buzz or putting up with using the Essence remote for volume, I'll choose the latter.
I have ordered in both the ground loop isolator and a DAC though. The DAC will arrive first, so I'll try it to hope at least there's a second-best solution. Then I'll wait anxiously to see if the GLI on its own will do the trick.
MaximL: Playdrv4me:Since you don't need the volume control, or at least you don't seem to be concerned about that, then an analog to digital converter will be fine if the ground loop isolator doesn't do the trick. Well, I'd love the volume control, since using the TV remote for everything except volume will be rather annoying. But if it's a choice between not using the speakers for the TV at all because of the buzz or putting up with using the Essence remote for volume, I'll choose the latter. I have ordered in both the ground loop isolator and a DAC though. The DAC will arrive first, so I'll try it to hope at least there's a second-best solution. Then I'll wait anxiously to see if the GLI on its own will do the trick.
Smart move. Because the other thing this will allow you to do independently of the noise issue, is to see how much audio quality difference there will be between the two options. You may find that the DAC still provides a preferred measure of audio quality that you didn't expect, too. But hopefully the GLI will solve the problem AND the audio will be just as good through the headphone jack you want to use.
Well, there is zero extra noise/buzz using the TV's digital optical out, through an Audioengine D1 as DAC and into the Essence. So, that is good news.
I can still pick up noise/hiss from the speakers when they're on but not playing music (e.g. in between tracks and the subwoofer is still on) from about 1m away, but this might be something to live with. As I said, I don't really know what an acceptable amount of hiss like this is - ideally silence would be dead quiet, but I don't notice any hiss when listening to TV or music though the speakers normally and the S8 will shut off automatically after a few minutes anyhow.
As I might have said, I'm just testing at this stage and planning to install the whole setup in a new build in a couple of months, so I'll pull all stops out then in terms of plugging things into different power points and making sure cables aren't crossed in the hope of eliminating/minimising noise.
In a week's time, I'll try just the GLI on its own and hope for the best. If I have to change TV volume through the Essence, then I might just have an excuse to buy a table-top remote for it...
Anything simple I can try to do about it?
Should I experiment with plugging the S8 subwoofer into a different power point? Should I try a different RJ45 patch cable to connect to the Essence? I might try connecting iPad straight to S8s again to confirm that it's an issue completely with the speakers, rather than the Essence.
On an unrelated note, do you have the AUD cost of an Essence tabletop remote handy, elephant?
MaximL:On an unrelated note, do you have the AUD cost of an Essence tabletop remote handy, elephant?
Thanks, elephant!
Problem for now is 90% solved.
Just now I got out the subwoofer. First step was unscrewing the base from the case. There was a slight rattling in it which irked me, but didn't seem to affect the speaker - just noticeable sometimes when I had it rolled on its side. Turns out it was a bit of plastic - there is a screw thread on part of it, so it probably was supposed to be part of a screw housing somewhere not screwed in right. I have a picture, but it's less than 1cm in any direction and isn't that interesting.
Returning the cover to the subwoofer, I plugged it in on its own. No hiss. Then attached an iPad via 3.5mm > RCA > RJ45 cables that came with the S8. No hiss. Added one of the L/R speakers. Still no hiss. One can hear the speaker is on with an ear up to it, but certainly no hiss like before. This narrows things down considerably - either to the ethernet cables I was using for the Essence or maybe the powerpoint (used different socket) or even the Essence itself. At least now I know the problem is 'solvable' and I can get the speakers working if I find the ultimate source of it. Here's hoping it isn't the Essence in general. Will test again with the noise isolator when it arrives and try substituting in some different ethernet cables.
Dave Farr:Sounds like you're getting there! My Essence is completely silent through my BL6000's. The Ethernet cable may be worth a look at though. Dave.
HardCopy: BS Essence and Transmitter 1 just connects using an ethernet cable from PL out on Essence to PL in on Transmitter 1 (use an ethernet with shielding, typically recognizable with metal male connector caps). Connect to the Essence with RCA or optical/toslink inputs from your source.
That is quite possible. As in most things, there are different qualities/grades which make them suitable or unsuitable for use. I suppose you could liken this to the use of the 'correct' Powerlink cables. It makes on heck of a difference and using the incorrect PL cable can cause all sorts of issues.
Ethernet cables in my experience can be prone to failure and seem to be one of the weak links in a system. I'd try a shielded Ethernet cable in this instance and see if that helps. They aren't expensive and will be worth the investment. Why have an expensive sound system and risk quality/sound with inferior cabling?
Dave.
Thanks! I did buy Ethernet cables especially (Cat6, White) to match the speaker cables, but I'm not sure they're shielded. Will get some that claim specifically to be shielded just to tick all boxes.
MaximL: Thanks! I did buy Ethernet cables especially (Cat6, White) to match the speaker cables, but I'm not sure they're shielded. Will get some that claim specifically to be shielded just to tick all boxes.
It's worth a try as the investment is relatively small compared to the overall total. Please feedback when you get them.
What I find interesting is the kind of noise, he describes it as a hiss. In about every case I've encountered where shielding or ground loops are the cause it's always been a hum, same freq as whatever your AC power operates, 60 Hz for the US, I guess 50 Hz for most of Europe.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Well, the louder noise is a 'hum' and the softer version without the headphone out connected is a 'hiss'. I suspect it's a combination of noise from the TV headphone out and noise through the unshielded ethernet cables from the Essence.
Here to report some results. Unfortunately, the shielded ethernet cables I ordered a week ago haven't arrived yet, so I might look in the shops for some just to get this thing done and dusted. Used an iPad app to test dB levels of speakers that were on and connected, but with TV at mute...
Connecting Sony TV via headphone out > Essence > S8 via standard ethernet cable = 57dB from 50cm away from L speaker. Large hum.
Connecting Sony TV via headphone out in the same way, but using Hama ground loop isolator before connecting to Essence = 36dB. Acceptable, if not perfect.
Connecting Sony TV via digital optical out without GLI = 33 dB.
Connecting Sony TV via digital optical out with GLI = 32 dB. (This might be nothing, but just the equipment not being accurate enough)
Connecting Sony TV WITHOUT Essence via digital optical out = 26 dB (very faint white noise with ear right to L speaker, but basically no noise at all - ambient noise).
Based on the above, my conclusions at this stage are: GLI makes a BIG difference, takes things from a large hum to a small hum. BUT it looks like the Essence or connection from it is responsible for a small hum. So I'm hopeful that the shielded FTP Cat 6-7 cable from the Essence will solve things completely. It looks like there is a very small quality gain in routing things from digital optical rather than headphone jack, but I'll wait until I've got everything sorted to work out if it's worth sacrificing volume control through the TV for the sake of a few extra dB of noise.
Just received shielded Cat 6 cables in the mail. Plugged them in. No noise from the TV.
IT WAS ME NOT USING SHIELDED ETHERNET CABLES FROM THE ESSENCE!
Thanks to whomever it was that pointed me in that direction. I hasten to add that B&O use a shielded ethernet to RCA cable in the S8 box, but just don't point out how important it is to use when connecting to a B&O sound source.
Hoorah! Apart from the fact I now have a spare DAC that I no longer need, it seems like problem solved 100%. Thanks all.
Congratulations! It's always such a satisfying feeling when you finally solve a vexing problem isn't it? I always also seem to smack myself up side the head because it's usually something simple I should have done to start...like checking the thing is plugged in or such!
MaximL: Just received shielded Cat 6 cables in the mail. Plugged them in. No noise from the TV. IT WAS ME NOT USING SHIELDED ETHERNET CABLES FROM THE ESSENCE! Thanks to whomever it was that pointed me in that direction. I hasten to add that B&O use a shielded ethernet to RCA cable in the S8 box, but just don't point out how important it is to use when connecting to a B&O sound source. Hoorah! Apart from the fact I now have a spare DAC that I no longer need, it seems like problem solved 100%. Thanks all.
Congrats mate - happy its all working for you
So now effectively, if i wanted to use my other Sony TV with some other B&O speakers, i would just need to use an essence and not a Transmitter 1 i'm guessing.