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This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
My TV is a BeoVision 4-103 driven by a BeoSystem 3; my front speakers are BeoLab 90s and my rears are BeoLab 5s (which may be upgraded to BeoLab 50s at some point).
My issue is that the BeoSystem 3 won't recognise BeoLab 90s (or indeed 50s), so I've had to assign all four external speakers as BeoLab 5s. This means that the BS3 doesn't recognise the BL90s' 100-millisecond latency, so when I watch films or listen to music in surround sound I get an echo effect between the centre, front and rear speakers. I can correct this by switching the BL90s to low latency, but it seems a pity not to enjoy them to their fullest effect.
A BeoSystem 4 would solve the echo problem, but create other issues, as I believe it cannot control my TV's stand or ACM. Is there a way around this?
Hi politician,
One workaround for this issue is to extend the "Speaker Distance" setting for the Beolab 90s, ie. to tell the Beosystem 3 that these speakers are further away from your listening position than they actually are. This will cause the Beosystem to send sound to these speakers slightly earlier than to the other speakers, hence correcting the delay.
As a rough guide, adding 5 feet or 1.5m to the speaker distance setting equates to approx. 5mS of delay that the system will remove. The Beolab 90s have two operating modes, in "Low Latency", they have a processing delay of approx. 25mS, otherwise they have a processing delay of approx. 100mS.
Hope this helps!
Kind regards, Steve.
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Thanks Steve! I've added ten metres to them in the BeoSystem 3, which slightly reduces the problem, but doesn't eliminate it. Would adding distance in the BL90 app itself help or is there another workaround?
politician:Thanks Steve! I've added ten metres to them in the BeoSystem 3, which slightly reduces the problem, but doesn't eliminate it. Would adding distance in the BL90 app itself help or is there another workaround?
Hi
I believe this issue has been described by B&O (Geoff perhaps?).
The BL90 will have to go low latency if you want to "lip sync"
.
Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
Hi Politician,
A partial answer to your question is here: LINK
In order to use the 90's and the 5's with the BSys 3, you will need to put the 90's into Low Latency mode, and add 7.2 m to their actual distance in the setup menus of the BSys3.
(if you're curious as to how I arrived at the 7.2 m - this is the 25 ms of the BL90 = 8.6 m MINUS the 3.9 ms of the BeoLab 5 = 1.35 m.)
Adding distance in the BL90's app will not help. The latency cannot be less than 25 ms for Low Latency or 100 ms for High Latency.
Of course, if you're listening to stereo music without video, you can use the 90's in high latency mode, since there is no additional source to synchronize...
Cheers-geoff
Thanks Geoff! I don't suppose there's any possibility of B&O doing a final software update for the BeoSystem 3 that recognises the new speakers? Some of us aren't in a position to use the BeoSystem 4 with our TVs of choice.
Forgive me, I need a bit of clarification...
I came across this in Geoffs blog:
"In addition, the BeoVision Eclipse can “tell” the BeoLab 50 and 90 to change latency settings on-the-fly to optimise the configuration to ensure lip sync."
Does that mean the Eclipse cant do the lip sync against the BL90 @ high latency?
What about the Bsys 4, same trick or a different approach altogether?
Another good reason for a BeoSystem 5!
I would love to see a picture of that setup!
BEOVOX141: Forgive me, I need a bit of clarification... I came across this in Geoffs blog: "In addition, the BeoVision Eclipse can “tell” the BeoLab 50 and 90 to change latency settings on-the-fly to optimise the configuration to ensure lip sync." Does that mean the Eclipse cant do the lip sync against the BL90 @ high latency? What about the Bsys 4, same trick or a different approach altogether?
And why would you want to maintain ‘the high latency mode’, when the BL90’s are used with a tv and -probably - other connected speakers?
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Millemissen: BEOVOX141: Forgive me, I need a bit of clarification... I came across this in Geoffs blog: "In addition, the BeoVision Eclipse can “tell” the BeoLab 50 and 90 to change latency settings on-the-fly to optimise the configuration to ensure lip sync." Does that mean the Eclipse cant do the lip sync against the BL90 @ high latency? What about the Bsys 4, same trick or a different approach altogether? And why would you want to maintain ‘the high latency mode’, when the BL90’s are used with a tv and -probably - other connected speakers? MM
Don't the Beolab 90 produce a higher quality sound when in high latency mode?
Beovision 7-55 MK1 red, Beolab 10 red. Beolab 50, all black. Beolab 17 broken ice. Beolab transmitter. Apple tv4 and apple express 2.
Esax:I have not compared the beolab 90 but on beolab 50 it sounds different. Not necessarily worse but different. You can set a high latancy for music and low latancy to watch tv. I drive the music through spdif for best quality. And also narrow mode for music and wide for tv as default. It's relatively easy to set even if the app feels a little messy. Hopefully it will be better soon.
@Esax
That is how it has to be done - and it is also what Geoff Martin wrote in his post on the previous page.
Which tv do you use?
The trouble of the op with his setup (BSys3) there is no option for telling the BL90/50 to switch to low latency mode ‘on the fly’.
This is a feature, that was introduced with the more powerfull BSys4-platform (VE1.x and later).
Millemissen: This is a feature, that was introduced with the more powerfull BSys4-platform (VE1.x and later)
This is a feature, that was introduced with the more powerfull BSys4-platform (VE1.x and later)
One has to admire your tenacity, a shortcoming is now once again.. a feature..
But at least it sort of clarifies the capabilities of the Bsys4.
BEOVOX141: One has to admire your tenacity, a shortcoming is now once again.. a feature.. But at least it sort of clarifies the capabilities of the Bsys4.
A bit of hands on experience with the BSys4 platform (and an open mind),
might tell you what is ‘feature’ and what is ‘shortcoming’ there.
Millemissen: A bit of hands on experience with the BSys4 platform (and an open mind), might tell you what is ‘feature’ and what is ‘shortcoming’ there. MM
Can we at´least agree:
The highly acclaimed sweet spot of the BL90 is beyond reach in AV mode on any B&O platform?
Technically the Eclipse might be able to if the 100ms+ video input lag would be utilized!
@ Geoff . Should you read this please chip in!
I got beovision 7-55 mk1 and beosound/beomaster 5 and from this week beolab 50.
Beovision is connected whit analog powerlink to the beolab 50. And I have masterlink from beosound 5 to the tv and spdif from beosound 5 to beolab 50. The beolab 50 is set as beolab 5 in the tv whit distance +8,6m to deal whit latancy of 25ms. Center is set to 0,1m (lowest setting) and beolab 50 is set to 8,7m.
What you do is to set 2 presets in the the bang & olufsen app.
Presets:
Mine is soffa for tv and sweetspot for music.
Input:
Automatic whit spdif higher then powerlink (just drag them in correct order). Under each source you have time-out. Thats the time it takes to change from one preset to the other. Faktory preset is 900s. I change that to 60s. I think this only apply the beam mode.
Soffa settings:
Beam control = wide
Latancy mode = Low
Sweetspot settings:
Beam control = narrow
Latancy mode = High
Averything is automatic and works like a charm.
BEOVOX141:Can we at´least agree: The highly acclaimed sweet spot of the BL90 is beyond reach in AV mode on any B&O platform? Technically the Eclipse might be able to if the 100ms+ video input lag would be utilized! @ Geoff . Should you read this please chip in!
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BEOVOX141: Can we at´least agree: The highly acclaimed sweet spot of the BL90 is beyond reach in AV mode on any B&O platform?
On that we can agree.
But why - on earth - would you want ‘the sweet spot’ from the 90/50, when in video mode?
In video mode you have at least one more speaker in the mix, the center - and probably also surrounds/rears.
There is no need for a 2-channel (aka stereo) sweetspot, when you watch/listen to tv or movies.
In a 3.0 channel setup you rely on the right settings of the audioengine.
(The TrueImage algorithm creates the center from the right and left channel — In a Bsys3-based tv this is done in a similar way).
In a multichannel setup you (if you are a purist using 1:1 settings) rely on a well-done mix of the source....
....or of the TrueImage processing, e.g used for upmixing 5 channels to 7, or downmixing 7 to 5 channels.
In my case, I'd like to hear my BeoLab 90s with long latency when watching music DVDs with surround sound or listening to DVD-As or SACDs in surround sound, which also go through the BeoSystem 3. As it stands, I can listen to two-channel audio in high latency but five-channel audio has to be in low latency, which is a pity.
politician: ....but five-channel audio has to be in low latency, which is a pity.
....but five-channel audio has to be in low latency, which is a pity.
Why ‘a pity’?
The low latency mode will ensure the syncronisation with the other speakers in the setup.
Not a good idea to have some speakers/the BL90 in high latency mode and the others/BL5 and BL10 in low latency mode - which is how these normally behave.- in the same setup with multi channel sources.
If you follow the suggestions, that Geoff posted in this thread, you have done the best you can with your setup.
The high latency mode will then be used (reserved) for 2 channel/stereo sources, where it is important that the speakers can do all processing in order to have e.g. a narrow mode for more critical listening.
As for your additional question in your op - which has somehow gone under in the thread:
’A BeoSystem 4 would solve the echo problem, but create other issues, as I believe it cannot control my TV's stand or ACM. Is there a way around this?’
perhaps someone would know the answer - would be nice to learn about.
It's a pity because I'd like a BeoSystem that could add 100ms delay to the centre and rear speakers in order to match the BeoLab 90s in long latency mode, allowing me to hear surround sound music in the best fidelity. Even getting BeoLab 50s as rears won't solve the problem, as the BeoLab 10 will still be out of sync.
Millemissen: politician: ....but five-channel audio has to be in low latency, which is a pity. Why ‘a pity’? The low latency mode will ensure the syncronisation with the other speakers in the setup. Not a good idea to have some speakers/the BL90 in high latency mode and the others/BL5 and BL10 in low latency mode - which is how these normally behave.- in the same setup with multi channel sources. If you follow the suggestions, that Geoff posted in this thread, you have done the best you can with your setup. The high latency mode will then be used (reserved) for 2 channel/stereo sources, where it is important that the speakers can do all processing in order to have e.g. a narrow mode for more critical listening. As for your additional question in your op - which has somehow gone under in the thread: ’A BeoSystem 4 would solve the echo problem, but create other issues, as I believe it cannot control my TV's stand or ACM. Is there a way around this?’ perhaps someone would know the answer - would be nice to learn about. MM
It does not matter how long the latencies are theoretically. If there was the option to tell the beosystem the latency of a speaker (which is done by telling the system which speakers are attached), in addition to the distances to the speakers, everything should be in perfect sync. It would be perfectly fine to use speakers of vastly different latencies, and even optimal to have every speaker in their highest latency mode, if the Beosystem was capable of simply syncing up the signals accordingly (e.g. play the sound to the Beolab 5 96,08ms [100ms delay by beolab 90 - 3,92ms delay by beolab 5] later than the sound to the beolab 90). The largest delay (latency + time it takes to reach the listener [= distance * speed of sound]) would dictate (=be) the delay of the picture. However, this is not possible to accomplish with the Beosystem 3, at least to my knowledge, so the person who bought the speaker is stuck with using the low latency mode when watching television. This is, indeed, a pity as you would hope that if you spend that much money on speakers you would always get the most out of them, which you get in the high latency mode.
Beosince98: This is, indeed, a pity as you would hope that if you spend that much money on speakers you would always get the most out of them, which you get in the high latency mode.
This is, indeed, a pity as you would hope that if you spend that much money on speakers you would always get the most out of them, which you get in the high latency mode.
@Beosince98
And how would you hear the difference between low and high latency mode.......when the setup consists of several (different) speakers/is a multi channel setup.
Which difference is it, that you actually hear, then?
From listening to stereo music in both high and low latency modes, I can tell you that there's a notable difference: high latency sounds somewhat more precise and refined. I suspect it would make a large difference to multichannel music too, as a lot of the information is sent to the front speakers, but the echo effect that is created means low latency is the only option.
Millemissen: Beosince98: This is, indeed, a pity as you would hope that if you spend that much money on speakers you would always get the most out of them, which you get in the high latency mode. @Beosince98 And how would you hear the difference between low and high latency mode.......when the setup consists of several (different) speakers/is a multi channel setup. Which difference is it, that you actually hear, then? MM
I can not judge that, as I do not own this configuration (sadly). However, I do think that there is an advantage to the high latency mode, else it would not exist (although I think the low latency mode was the afterthought in this case). Therefore, it would be beneficial to have it in high latency mode. I do not, however, understand what a multi channel setup has to do with this. I just think it is the best to get the most out of the speakers, where possible.
Beosince98: Millemissen: Beosince98: This is, indeed, a pity as you would hope that if you spend that much money on speakers you would always get the most out of them, which you get in the high latency mode. @Beosince98 And how would you hear the difference between low and high latency mode.......when the setup consists of several (different) speakers/is a multi channel setup. Which difference is it, that you actually hear, then? MM I can not judge that, as I do not own this configuration (sadly). However, I do think that there is an advantage to the high latency mode, else it would not exist (although I think the low latency mode was the afterthought in this case). Therefore, it would be beneficial to have it in high latency mode. I do not, however, understand what a multi channel setup has to do with this. I just think it is the best to get the most out of the speakers, where possible.
Why does this argument go around in circles, because it is not a technical one? Many years ago the Beovision 103 was presented with Beolabs 5. People were convinced in the catalog that they were buying the best B&O had to offer.That made some people proud of what they were capable of affordance.
Eclipse is presented with Beolabs 50, not 90. Does that mean that the 90 was not actually designed to go with TVs? That appears to be causing emotions from people who want the best but hear very rationalised arguments as to why they do not need the best instead of the real one. That speaker doesn't perform at its top level with the best TV. Has all of the software feature been completed? If you tell me I am stupid or ignorant for thinking I need its best then you have to agree I would be stupid for buying it, even if I could never notice it in real life. It is sometimes easy to tell on this board when a problem will not get sorted because of how the team of ambassadors will respond or not respond.
There was a case in the past that was the exact same. Top line Beomaster 5 could not be used as a linkroom player with a TV because it created an echo with its own processor. It is strange that development quit on that product because it is still just as good as Moment, and not even more dead.
B&O have never been very polished at humility even when evidence of failure was complete. When customers feelings get emotional, the rational argument no longer has strength, and B&O is bought with my heart. And my heart tells me from this site the last great speakers was the 9, and the last great TV was the 11. And even today for the very old B&O NUVO make € 2000 player that will turn 3 sets of passive speakers into a multiple room network and is powered by ICE amplifiers.
Yeah!!! In other words, it's time for a Beosystem 5!!!