ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I had an interesting experience with a B&O dealer this week. I won a Beovision 6-22 on a motorised table stand on eBay. Ideal for my office. The eBay advert described it as little used and in excellent condition, but in need of a Freeview or Skybox. (A manufacturer's stock photo was used rather than the actual TV). I paid in advance, and through messages and by telephone it was agreed that the PUC would be updated to suit the STB's I had available. We agreed on a collection date. I felt reassured that as I was dealing with an official B&O showroom, nothing could go wrong.
Wednesday, mid-day my wife and I arrive outside the store after a two hour drive. On entering there are three staff all intently busy on ignoring their only customers. I introduce myself, and after a scramble in the basement the television appears and is placed in the centre of the showroom floor. I ask about the Beo4. There isn't one, it has been sold. OK, I'm not going to make a fuss, although I think the description should have made that clear. I happen to have Beo4's, but anyone else winning the TV might not have been in a position to turn it on!
I present my PayPal receipt, and I am then left to carry the TV unassisted to my car where we manage to secure it on cushions, on its back, on its stand. I then realise we do not have the PIN, so return to the shop to find that our salesperson has gone out. He'll be back soon says the man with the laptop sitting on the Rota Sofa. Can anyone else give us the PIN? I don't actually work here says Mr Rota Sofa. The other person in the shop continues with his computer and telephone work. We are studiously ignored for 15 minutes.
Eventually our man returns. “Can't you ring up for the PIN when you get home? I'll need the serial number”. “Can't we have it now" I ask? He comes out to the car, removes the speaker grille, photographs the serial number and we eventually get our PIN. I ask about the origin of the TV and the fact that the PayPal payment seems to have gone to another company and try to have clarified just who is selling the TV. We are selling on behalf of a customer I am told. So have I bought it from B&O I ask? Well, yes you have comes the reply. It's on behalf of a customer and that's why it's on eBay. At this point I wonder about the status of the other B&O products on eBay from this particular showroom.
On arriving home and unloading the car, we realise that the back panel covering the connections is missing. It's now after 5pm, so I decide to telephone the next day, in the hope that the panel was removed for the software update and has just been mislaid in the shop. After all, the TV was described as being in excellent condition, which to my mind implied that it was complete!
Thursday I telephone and have to leave an answerphone message. I get no returned call, and attempt another three times to telephone (without leaving more messages). I then decide to telephone the company to whom the PayPal payment went: a company who appear to provide software services to a number of B&O showrooms. They say they know nothing, but within 5 minutes I get a call back from the B&O showroom where I've bought the television. He's been on his own but was aware of my calls. My salesperson will be in tomorrow and will call back about the missing cover. The PayPal thing is apparently just a convenient arrangement to save this particular B&O showroom from setting up a separate PayPal business account. We have a pleasant enough chat about B&O.
Friday. No one has called. I ring at 11am. Mr Salesperson answers the phone. He hasn't had the message about the missing cover or needing to call me. He'll have a look around and calll me back. 12 noon, no call back so I ring again. He says it hasn't turned up yet. I ask about whether the TV was checked when it was described as being in excellent condition. He replies that it is in excellent condition, but apparently without its connections cover. It was in the shop for some time. He says I got the TV for a good price, - our software man also thinks it was a good price. I say that if he had described the defects there would have been even fewer bids. I say that I've never had any dealings with a B&O dealer like this before. “You are not dealing with B&O” he says. “I'm looking at the advert now and we do not mention B&O of XX.” (He's wrong, the seller information makes it crystal clear that it is B&O of XX, a registered business seller, not to mention the telephone number. Didn't I collect from a B&O store?)
“Ebay is where we sell our rubbish: that's what eBay is for. Anything else is sold in the showroom.”
At this point I have to put the phone down!
So there you have it.
Some seem to have a view that if you get anything for a good price on eBay then you shouldn't complain if it is incomplete or defective. Some reputable businesses suddenly pretend not to be involved if a post-sales problem arises. Others, like Lifestyle and several other second life businesses, photograph every tiny mark and highlight whether anything is missing or not included, whether on eBay or their own websites.
Graham
Shocking! What a terrible experience! Do screenshots etc and contact B&O UK asap.
This wouldn't be a showroom in Yorkshire by any chance?
If it's the one I think it is I was in there recently and found the salesman to be argumentative and condescending and told me I didn't want to buy a Beovision V1 as it 'wasn't a Bang and olufsen product' and that I should be looking at a Beovision 10 despite the fact i had come in to specifically look at the V1. We had a rather tetchy demo of the V1 and I left rather than spend more time there. Wouldn't go back there. Bought my new telly from Lifestyle.
My B&O showroom loved me when I spent 5K on a new TV, DVD player, lighting etc. I paid cash and didn't get a cent off.
18 months later, I moved to Ibiza to launch a radio station for two sunny years. I needed to sell up quickly etc. Despite numerous calls to the showroom and voice mail messages asking if they'd be interested in buying the TV back, I never heard from them!!! I gave up after a week of persistance and made a huge financial loss. Funny how these B&O sales guys love the sight of your credit card and only remember you when a new over priced product is about to be launched!!! Not a very pleasant experience!
Graham, your experience is somewhere between astounding and atrocious -- or a mixture of both !
I think there is enough evidence to make a case for deceptive and misleading retail practices.
In Australia I would be taking "them" to a Consumer Affairs Tribunal, and reporting the employees to the owner of the dealership and the dealer network manager for B&O UK.
Imagine the bad reputation that B&O would be getting from the experiences of less knowledgeable people than your good self.
So bad.
And "caveat emptor" be damned -- it is just not right.
BeoNut since '75
Initiate a Significantly Not As Described dispute through Paypal.That'll put their money on hold until they solve the situation. Should get them going.
Alternatively, an Item Not Received case.Since they cannot provide proof of shipping, there's nothing they can do other than watch theirmoney being channeled back to you.
Paypal is very dangerous to sellers. I've been "got at" a few times myself, learning to navigate the Paypal rules.
Martin
I think an item not received case is a bit harsh - and dishonest !!
I can't speak for all dealers, of course - but even when i'm buying items from (an admittedly very small number of them), i feel they treat used / pre-owned items as kind of sub-standard.
I was a prestige car dealer before B&O for 15 years as many people on here know, and when I used to go to Porsche/BMW/Mercedes garages the salesmen used to actually wince when they had to sit in a 'dirty' used car in their lovely new suits. They seemed to treat every used car as something which they had to get into to move and/or test drive as an occupational hazard, and very reluctantly - rather like someone who always flies First Class having to do a flight in Economy..
I feel this may be the case with used equipment in a new dealership. It's just not what they deal in, it's dusty, it's dirty, it has bits missing - so they just throw it on eBay, cheap - and let the great unwashed scramble amongst it and be grateful for what they have received. Once the poor person who cannot afford new has come into their store and left, rather like Gollum with his 'precious', then they immediately wash their hands of it.
As i said, these dealers are few and far between - but clearly this is the case, with this particular dealership, in this particular instance.
It's different when 'used' is your specialist subject. You kind of make a point of treating a used item with the care and attention of a brand new item, plus you try and treat the customer as if they were indeed buying a new item. That's the buzz of buying used - you save a fortune, and if the service is good it makes it twice as pleasurable.
There are many arguments and counter-arguments you could have here, of course - but I do think that the service Graham (the OP) has received is very poor, especially as the TV was collected from an official dealership. An Official Dealership is the 'flag carrier' for the brand, and is indeed the face of it. Wether the customer is buying a pair of screws to attach a TV to a wall bracket, or a 103" Plasma, the service should be the same.. gracious, courteous, friendly and with attention to detail.
As a final comment though... Graham, what were you doing buying an item without photographs?! That's the "industry standard" these days - and anyone who buys something without photographs, or with a stock image, is playing Russian Roulette.
Lee
9 LEE:As a final comment though... Graham, what were you doing buying an item without photographs?! That's the "industry standard" these days - and anyone who buys something without photographs, or with a stock image, is playing Russian Roulette.
I think I would easily have slipped into that trap myself ... the sale appeared to be coming from the B&O dealer (hence my concern about the "false flag" aspects of this incident), and I would have had an assumption (yes, I know, assumptions make an ass of me and u) that the dealership would have checked them out.
Having heard the story, my suspicions are that the management may not even have know what was happening -- that the sale was simple one of the lads doing a bit on the side. Yes, another assumption .......
The other side, is that of this side dealing gets out of hand then it is going to damage reputable resellers such as yourself -- something I would not want to see.
elephant: 9 LEE:As a final comment though... Graham, what were you doing buying an item without photographs?! That's the "industry standard" these days - and anyone who buys something without photographs, or with a stock image, is playing Russian Roulette. I think I would easily have slipped into that trap myself ... the sale appeared to be coming from the B&O dealer (hence my concern about the "false flag" aspects of this incident), and I would have had an assumption (yes, I know, assumptions make an ass of me and u) that the dealership would have checked them out. Having heard the story, my suspicions are that the management may not even have know what was happening -- that the sale was simple one of the lads doing a bit on the side. Yes, another assumption ....... The other side, is that of this side dealing gets out of hand then it is going to damage reputable resellers such as yourself -- something I would not want to see.
In reply to Lee and Elephant, yes I shouldn't have relied on a stock photo, but I did assume that a B&O dealer would be honest. If the television had been photographed then it would still have looked fine from the front, and I have no way of knowing whether the connections panel loss was recent or whether it wasn't there in the first place. Same with the Beo4. Was it removed because they didn't get the price they expected, or was it something that a previous owner retained? The fact that they said it had been sold makes me suspect that it wasn't the latter.
As for one of the lads doing a bit of trading on the side, well the eBay ad gave a personal contact, which happens to coincide with the name on the business card on which the PIN was written. He is described as the 'Store Manager & Project Specialist'.
As Martin suggests, there are possible remedies through eBay and PayPal, although the risk here is that the seller ultimately offers a refund if the goods are returned. Do I really want to drive that 4 hour round trip again just to reward the seller with another opportunity to sell again at a higher price? (He had been silly enough to end the auction at a time when most people would have been at work which would account for fewer final minute bids than one would have expected). Ebay is failrly useless when it comes to problems. I once won a very rare B&O book on eBay for a low price. The book did not turn-up. The seller said he'd been ill and would therefore cancel the sale and offer the book for sale again. Ebay were satisfied that a refund had been made..... they were not interested in the fact that this was a breach of contract and that they were actually helping a fraudulent seller.
When you use Paypal, you are operating under their regulations exclusively.No other rules or regulations, not even Ebays buyer/seller protection programme, plays a role anylonger.Neither does eventual seller disclaimers put in the item description on the Ebay listing.Likewise, you as the buyer can also ignore the feeling of being dishonest and just play along.
Play by paypals rules and you are in the clear.If the seller doesn't find the missing part, initiate a Significantly Not A Described dispute.This will put the sellers money in quarantine and you will have the sellers attention.All legal.
PS. Note to sellers;NEVER EVER accept Paypal for items being picked up. Without a tracking number you WILL lose against a Paypal Item Not Received dispute.
Thanks for the advice Martin!
I'll give them a couple of days to find the part and then consider further action. I might even think about the Beo4! (The manufacturer's spec for this TV specifically says that it comes with a Beo4 and IR blaster when new.)
Dillen: I've been "got at" a few times myself, learning to navigate the Paypal rules.
I've been "got at" a few times myself, learning to navigate the Paypal rules.
Martin, you are probably the most trustworthy person with whom I have ever had the pleasure to do business. I'm not sure whether to be angered or saddened by your comment.
I for one have had so many bad experiences selling on Ebay that I very rarely do it any more.
Graham,
I too have been on the receiving end of a B&O employee who did the wrong thing by me on eBay. I bought a dealer display item from him on eBay, yet he never shipped it to me. I repeatedly sent messages to him through eBay and later Facebook, but he wouldn't respond (I couldn't raise a dispute over eBay as the time period lapsed).
I ended up getting my money back and an apology from the employee. How? I sent an email to Bang & Olufsen Head Office and told them that one of their employees was doing dodgy things on eBay and misleading customers.
B&O weren't the fastest to respond, but when they realised I wasn't going away the followed it up. I promptly received a refund from the B&O employee and an apology email. All I can assume is that B&O stepped in not wanting to tarnish their image. I know if it was my company, I'd have very strict policies on non-retail sales.
Give it a try Graham, you should get your desired outcome if B&O still has a customer focus :)
x:________________________
Update.
B&O Liverpool provided me with a rear connections cover at no charge.
I picked-up a Beo4 in mint condition from a private seller on eBay.
I may yet write to B&O head office and/or take the PayPal route for an incomplete item.
I am not naming the particular store on the forum because I do not have a recording of that last telephone conversation ("Ebay is where we sell our rubbish....."), although my wife can bear witness to the actions of the staff at the store. I will go so far as to say that there is a great world of difference between that store's customer service and B&O Liverpool.
B&O perhaps need to clarify their policy on the resale of used B&O equipment. Most stores seem to list demonstration or traded-in equipment on the official B&O website. Why is this particular store using eBay and routeing the payments to one of their suppliers? Just a ruse to get around B&O's official policy and to keep the income off the stores books???????
Having questionable sales or accounting procedures and being discourteous to customers is not a recipe for business success.
That is horrendous. I wouldn't let them get away with it. If they're selling things privately from a B&O store, they're representing the company very poorly. Who knows, they could be selling customer trade ins and keeping the money ??
That said, I bought our BV4-50 with Lab10 from a dealer in Switzerland, on the Swiss version of Ebay (much better, less dishonesty)
We were treated respectfully, the TV came with warranty. It was the floor model for literally a 3rd of the new price. They came and installed it for us and still send us brochures and store invites for events till this day. That was 2 years ago. I guess it's a bit hit and miss.
...and that's how it should be! A sale is a sale, and a customer is a customer no matter what they buy. The Swiss store did the right thing, using the ebay sale as an opportunity to gain a new customer.
I see from other posts that B&O Harrogate, the store that some guessed was behind this story, is now under new management.