ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Submitted without comment, for now:
B&O Report
“The results we have delivered in the third quarter are clearly not satisfactory. We have overestimated the speed at which we have been able to drive the change towards a more retail-led and demand driven sales and distribution network. Combined with the unexpected decline in TV revenue in the quarter, this has led us to reassess our outlook for the year,” says CEO Henrik Clausen.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
“Demand led” means less stock?
obviously less demand , especially for TVs.
A replacement for the V1 would have been good perhaps?
Beo Century ,Beoplay V1, Beocenter 6, Ex-Beolit 12, Beotime , A8. Beolit 15 , Form 2i , Beolab 2000, Beoplay A3.Beosound 1
Imagine our collective shock.....
Sandyb: Imagine our collective shock.....
The following quote from Reuters article:
"Bang & Olufsen Chief Executive Officer Henrik Clausen is adamant that the demand is there. Consumers bought 6 percent more B&O TV sets in the three months through February, he said. But rather than restocking to replace those sales, retailers have instead used the opportunity to pare their inventory, and cut purchases by 25 percent.
Clausen attributed the drop-off to concerns about price competition from retailers who don’t have B&O’s stamp of approval but nonetheless offer its products, often at a discount. This unauthorized selling ultimately happens either when an approved retailer sells its inventory to a third party (which can then sell it on to consumers), or if B&O withholds approval because of discounting. Neither would be possible if the shops felt consumers wanted to buy the goods at the full price."
Simonbeo: “Demand led” means less stock? obviously less demand , especially for TVs. A replacement for the V1 would have been good perhaps?
Might be that the dealer are less interested in having the recent tv in stock, because they expect something new to come....
.....of which noone - of course - is able (or willing) to talk about.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
poodleboy: Sandyb: Imagine our collective shock..... The following quote from Reuters article: "Bang & Olufsen Chief Executive Officer Henrik Clausen is adamant that the demand is there. Consumers bought 6 percent more B&O TV sets in the three months through February, he said. But rather than restocking to replace those sales, retailers have instead used the opportunity to pare their inventory, and cut purchases by 25 percent. Clausen attributed the drop-off to concerns about price competition from retailers who don’t have B&O’s stamp of approval but nonetheless offer its products, often at a discount. This unauthorized selling ultimately happens either when an approved retailer sells its inventory to a third party (which can then sell it on to consumers), or if B&O withholds approval because of discounting. Neither would be possible if the shops felt consumers wanted to buy the goods at the full price."
Gee, dealers don't want to stock up on products because, just perhaps, they don't trust B&O corporate or the marketability of products. Hey guys, let's go in debt and load up on stock because...help me out here I'm getting nothing.
Clausen's opinion could be charitably called delusional, the problem is endemic issues with B&O, but let's blame it on the dealers, again.
I'm reminded of Lee's comment about it'd be better to be a naked beekeeper than a B&O dealer now.
Duels:This is an extremely poor set of quarterly results on top of the disappointing second quarter. Things have got worse not better. B&O needs to tell the world what it is doing about the TV market going forwards. And it needs some new activity in high end audio. Not good at all.
B&O needs to tell the world what it is doing about the TV market going forwards. And it needs some new activity in high end audio.
Not good at all.
I think B&O should never have tried to be a player in the high end market. The traditional high enders will never accept B&O as truly high end, the BL5 was amazing and it had about zero market penetration into the "high end" world. Meanwhile, working on things like the BL90 and BL50 have consumed resources and money that could and should have been allocated elsewhere. Like on fixing software issues, or coming up with a good media server/hub. Or wifi that actually works.
B&O was never, ever about "high end" audio. What it always represented was good to very good sound, somewhat expensive, that provided the user good sound, stunning styling, and a simple, integrated system where interconnectivity and ease of use were emphasized. Ultra high end aspirations, poor reliability, buggy software, and nose bleeding prices are not helping the problems.
Don't worry, everything is fine and the future nought but shining - I've read it here loads of times!
Ban boring signatures!
Duels:Sorry Jeff. By high-end I meant main brand Bang and Olufsen audio ie beolabs etc, as opposed to beoplay audio.
Ah, understand Duels! There is a differentiation between B&O and the Play kind of products, but the words "high end" immediately call to mind a completely different, and usually insane, kind of market...where obsession over cables and such rules. B&O IMO still has no business in that market, it's not even the philosophy they used to espouse.
From what my local dealer told me recently it would appear that B&O sound capability will be built into the TVs from their Eclipse partner. Whether this is an admission that they want to sell B&O speakers for buyers these cheaperTVs I’m not sure. Seems quite defeatist to me.
Simonbeo:From what my local dealer told me recently it would appear that B&O sound capability will be built into the TVs from their Eclipse partner. Whether this is an admission that they want to sell B&O speakers for buyers these cheaperTVs I’m not sure. Seems quite defeatist to me.
I thought LG had selected Meridian as their Audio Partner
New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0
Mikipedia on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Mikipedia
Mikipedi4 on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mikipedi4
Mikipedia on Intagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikipedi4/
Old: Beosound 9000 mk3, Beolab 3's, Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.
Some months ago I read an interesting article explaining Bose's market positining. I felt that it pretty much summarizes B&O too: decent sound, but not premium, although prices are ultra premium...
https://www.audioholics.com/editorials/bose-conundrum
Dante:Some months ago I read an interesting article explaining Bose's market positining. I felt that it pretty much summarizes B&O too: decent sound, but not premium, although prices are ultra premium... https://www.audioholics.com/editorials/bose-conundrum
Puncher: Don't worry, everything is fine and the future nought but shining - I've read it here loads of times!
Indeed.
I don't understand the reason to bring BeoPlay in to Bang & Olufsen and have a single website. BeoPlay was doing fine, the website was simple, effective and easy-to-understand and now they've gone and combined the lot. Isn't as effective. Confusing if anything.
I also notice that the latest SS19 range only covers 3 products/colours. There was a time where the entire BeoPlay range had a lick of paint each season. ie. the H9i has some love, whilst the H8i is neglected, leaving only two primary colour choices.
All is for the best, in this, the best of all possible worlds!
Jeff: Puncher: Don't worry, everything is fine and the future nought but shining - I've read it here loads of times! All is for the best, in this, the best of all possible worlds!
I bought my stocks in 2009 for the current price they have now.
I sold them when they were twice the price, which I tough was way to much.
I have now bought again, but not because a succes is the only option, I would call it a gamble.
I like their products and defend them often, but the way they have knowledge about their own numbers, surprise me time after time.
They know nothing, just like Jon Snow.
I hope for the best, but it is not looking good, start releasing some new product NOW!
Beovision Harmony 77" 2nd Gen, Beolab 5, Beolab 17, Beosound 1, Beoplay M3, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay Earset, Beoliving Intelligence
Emil Jensen: I like their products and defend them often,
I like their products and defend them often,
Erm, we all like the products (as a whole). That's why we're here. I often think some people have the impression we're just trolls on this board to wind up owners who 'love' the brand, irrespective of the fact we own more B&O products than most - nearly every room has a B&O product in my home.
Just because someone is critical, doesn't mean they dislike the brand and/or products. Some of the decision-making and pricing is very questionable, but I'd have an Eclipse if I could justify the cost. I just can't. However much I try.
moxxey: Some of the decision-making and pricing is very questionable, but I'd have an Eclipse if I could justify the cost. I just can't. However much I try.
Agreed. The number of times I was totally willing to spend money on a B&O TV but could not justify the costs are countless. There are simply not many people around that are able let alone willing to pay 10k+ for a TV. There are however many that are willing to pay 2 and maybe 3 times the price of a "normal" tv.
I really wonder why it is so difficult to built a good (all in one) tv with good sound, that looks good, and has one thing apart from the design that stands out (think: motorized stand) and is reasonably priced (of course this is ignorance on my end).
For me the Beovision Horizon comes close but it should be around 2500 maybe 3000 for the 48inch (3500 - 4000 with a motorized stand if it was available). I would consider a 55 inch eclipse for 6k including stand but not more.
Imo if they are not able to lower prices, regardless of how great their products are, sales will decline as will B&O (except maybe Beoplay).
To a certain extend this also goes for audio. One high end show case model, fine; but 2 (BL90 & BL50)?? I would focus more on a combination of usability (integration / great software (including recommendations) / design / integrations with voice assistance and Ok (Beosound 1-2, M5) to good (BL17, BL18) to great sound (BL18, BL20). For these models the price points are already better than with TVs, should be about 30% lower and they have still not cracked the software side of things imo.
Anyway all probably easier said then done from where I am sitting ;-).
mawheele:Nothing wrong with products or pricing as they are seeing growth. They have a problem with their channel who are unable and/or unwilling to invest. They need to solve this otherwise growth will stall.
this could be a factor, but they have also adjusted their 3 year targets...(that were lowered already recently). Not sure this is all about uncertainty about the TV business commitment. The problems seem to be more fundamental; there is no one in the "(very) well off middle class" that are spending any money on B&O that I know (and I know a few ;-) ) younger than 50. They like it (and do spend money on luxury / well designed items) but they all think the price gap between B&O and the next viable offering is way too large. There is lots of potential there and hopefully the smart people in Struer can find a way to make use of it.
PeterBOBP:Agreed. The number of times I was totally willing to spend money on a B&O TV but could not justify the costs are countless. There are simply not many people around that are able let alone willing to pay 10k+ for a TV. There are however many that are willing to pay 2 and maybe 3 times the price of a "normal" tv. I really wonder why it is so difficult to built a good (all in one) tv with good sound, that looks good, and has one thing apart from the design that stands out (think: motorized stand) and is reasonably priced (of course this is ignorance on my end). For me the Beovision Horizon comes close but it should be around 2500 maybe 3000 for the 48inch (3500 - 4000 with a motorized stand if it was available). I would consider a 55 inch eclipse for 6k including stand but not more. Imo if they are not able to lower prices, regardless of how great their products are, sales will decline as will B&O (except maybe Beoplay). To a certain extend this also goes for audio. One high end show case model, fine; but 2 (BL90 & BL50)?? I would focus more on a combination of usability (integration / great software (including recommendations) / design / integrations with voice assistance and Ok (Beosound 1-2, M5) to good (BL17, BL18) to great sound (BL18, BL20). For these models the price points are already better than with TVs, should be about 30% lower and they have still not cracked the software side of things imo. Anyway all probably easier said then done from where I am sitting ;-).
BV Harmony 65 / Eclipse 55 / BL 50 / 19 / 18 / BS 2 all brass
BV Horizon 48 / V1 40 / BL 17 / Beoplay S3 all black
V1 / BL 3 / BS Essence MKII / Beoplay A3 all white
BS Moment / BS 3000 / BS 3200 / BL 400 all silver
Headphones / bluetooth speakers / BLC NL-ML / BLGateway
I know…B&O virus has grown on me !
I bet the CEO and many board members even are wondering how such bad results could happen.
And what did they do? The typcial pattern that proved to be of no help in about 5000 other cases of tried and failed company turnarounds:
- lay off people
- close down facilites
- cut down costs
with the result of products and service quality getting even worse... So sad to see them constantly damaging our beloved brand!A few dealers did their best to keep me to the brand even when I was more than unsatisfied with the product quality and reliability. So don't blame the dealers. They have a tough time with their customers due to some bad products. Dealers like Lee are diamonds and should be treated like that.As a customer I want to be proud again of Bang & Olufsen products. Products that provide the magic aha effect when touching and using it. And not the "Oh, it doesn't work anymore AGAIN!" effect. And yes, I'm a B&O fan since more than 20 years. :-)
Hi,
If we talk about reliability of the products, I can confirm that Beovision Eclipse is 99,9% reliable today.
I am very satisfied with this TV and I think the soundcenter is very good integrated with the LG-screen both regarding "the look" of it and also software-integration between the two units. I had before a Beovision 7-55 mark II and thought that this TV was the "best" TV B&O ever had made. Now I think that Beovision Eclipse really is the best Beovision they ever have made.
Unfortunately I agree that the pricing of the Eclipse is too high. I think that if the pricing was 30% less, then they should sell alot more of this television. Paying over 125.000 SEK for a television is really crazy. But I have done it and I am a great B&O-fan. But B&O can not just rely on the fan-club.
Best RegardsMartin
NEW! Beovision Eclipse 65 2nd generation (G1) with floorstand (from STB Brackets), Beolab 50 front, Beolab 3 rear, 2 x Beoplay A6 linkrooms, 2xBeoremote one BT, Beosound 9000 Mark III (sw 3.4), Beosound 5 (for DLNA only), Philips Hue (all lights in the home), Oppo UDP-203, Apple TV 4K (2021 model). Beoremote HALO, 3xBeoplay Charging pad, Beoplay M5
TWG:I bet the CEO and many board members even are wondering how such bad results could happen. And what did they do? The typcial pattern that proved to be of no help in about 5000 other cases of tried and failed company turnarounds: - lay off people - close down facilites - cut down costs
The more I think about it,
They have a bad result because the dealers dont stock up, but they are selling to end user.
Okay that may be the case of one quarter but the three year plan?
Either are they lying, or they dont no what is wrong.
I dont know what of these cases I would prefer.
Bad management in my opinion.
Thank you Duels,
I will have a listen :)
Duels: The full webcast is worth a listen if you have a spare thirty minutes.
The full webcast is worth a listen if you have a spare thirty minutes.
IMO that is what anyone, who wants to comment, ought to do.....but - I fear - haven’t done (yet).
Millemissen: Duels: The full webcast is worth a listen if you have a spare thirty minutes. IMO that is what anyone, who wants to comment, ought to do.....but - I fear - haven’t done (yet). MM
So unless one has heard the unplanned but scripted webcast, one should not comment? OK.
B&O has experienced nearly 60% loss of book value in 3 months, in 2 huge lots. No need to comment on THAT.
You can comment on anything - noone can hold you back.....we all know.
Please notice my phrasing ‘ought to’ - in my poor english that means ‘I’d strongly recommend someone to do it’.
You don’t have to, if you don’t feel that you need these explanations from the CEO.
As for the loss - this is not the first time......these guys don’t give up that easy, which should be common knowledge for anyone with some ‘beo insight ’.
However, feel free to plead for negativity, if that suits you best.
So, this is actually good news in disguise and we are all fools for not seeing it! - apart from MM obviously.
Puncher: So, this is actually good news in disguise and we are all fools for not seeing it! - apart from MM obviously.
You mean B&O's secret PR machine?
Millemissen: Please notice my phrasing ‘ought to’ - in my poor english that means ‘I’d strongly recommend someone to do it’.
I would swap "ought to" fo "suggest you ...." if I were you (= suggestion)
Anyway I took your advice and here is what stood out for me:
We can expect lots of new products in all categories (staged, on the go, flexible). looking forward to it and please make them affordable
The CEO said their core capabilities are: sound, design and craft. Video was not mentioned, so no longer a core capability which is true if you insource the video capability. This does imo not mean they will not sell TVs anymore, they just won't do any development on them.
On the lack of TV revenue. What I understand is that they sell less TVs to retailers ("sell in"), partly because of less "sell out" retailers had expected. Yet there was an increase of sell out compared to last year. My reading of this is: the eclipse was launched, it did relatively well in terms of revenue (no doubt because of the good margin). The clients that will buy anything of B&O and or are so rich they could not care about the price by now have bought this awesome TV with awesome sound. But the rest? They think it is not worth the money and show less interest than everyone expected. Above and beyond dealers cannot point them to the next model down as the Horizon despite its good look is an old TV in terms of technology (mainly: black levels and smart tv functions). So nothing to sell there either.
On the retailer side. Nothing to add to what was said (partly because I did not understand everything what was said). I would consider even more radical changes and reduce the number of resellers even further (sorry for any retailers here ...) and opt for a limited number of "Experience centers" (think Tesla / Apple). Not that current resellers are not doing their job (somedo some do not) , but more and more people know what they want read everything what they need to know online and are happy to order online as well. Of course I did not do the numbers, but maybe this reduces costs as well and with self owned stores you can most likely give a more consistent experience and service.
Finally I am always a bit surprised that with these type of sessions the business side of things (money, marketing, retail, cash flow etc) are discussed and questioned, but hardly anything on the product side of things / product strategy (there was one questions that was not answered). I do not think the business side of things is unimportant, but it starts with the products. Hopefully their new CTO can change that and put more emphasis on software at the same time as well.
PeterBOBP: The clients that will buy anything of B&O and or are so rich they could not care about the price by now have bought this awesome TV with awesome sound. But the rest? They think it is not worth the money and show less interest than everyone expected. Above and beyond dealers cannot point them to the next model down as the Horizon despite its good look is an old TV in terms of technology (mainly: black levels and smart tv functions). So nothing to sell there either. s is unimportant, but it starts with the products. Hopefully their new CTO can change that and put more emphasis on software at the same time as well.
The clients that will buy anything of B&O and or are so rich they could not care about the price by now have bought this awesome TV with awesome sound. But the rest? They think it is not worth the money and show less interest than everyone expected. Above and beyond dealers cannot point them to the next model down as the Horizon despite its good look is an old TV in terms of technology (mainly: black levels and smart tv functions). So nothing to sell there either. s is unimportant, but it starts with the products. Hopefully their new CTO can change that and put more emphasis on software at the same time as well.
Not forgetting that people just do not need to upgrade as frequently. There are people here in Bath with a tonne of cash. One still uses a BV9 and is happy and another has a 11-55, again happy. They don't care about 4K. And that's the irony. B&O's target audience can live with a HD from a few years ago as they don't need the latest technologies - therefore an Eclipse offers them very little over their tried-and-tested 11-55.
For them it's less about the additional £10K bill to upgrade, just more to do with satisfaction and a fully-working TV. The desire to upgrade is minimal for this clientele.
beolion: Sitting 3.5 metres away, 1080p still looks amazing. And Apple TV is doing the smart thing I need.
Sitting 3.5 metres away, 1080p still looks amazing. And Apple TV is doing the smart thing I need.
Definitely true. I am as avid a movie watcher as anyone, and very serious about video performance. 4K really doesn't offer any improvement that I care about or can get excited about. I have a 65 inch Panasonic VT series plasma, supposedly the same panel as the BV12. It's performance is stunning, outstanding black level and shadow detail, which matters far more than 4K.
Heck, I still have my 12 year old 42 inch Panasonic EDTV, 480p, and it's contrast and black levels are better than about any LCD based panels, and from 10 feet away you can't tell how many pixels there are, the picture is still outstanding.
Like you I use an Apple TV to consolidate the smart TV functions, easier and cheaper to upgrade it if needed than buy another panel, and since they finally made peace with Amazon enough to offer Amazon Prime Video as an app, it does everything I need.
This is where the Horizon falls down to me, the design is very attractive, simple, minimalist, but the performance of the panel on blacks and shadow detail is insufficient for something in that price range. I think the video performance of the BV11 is far superior.
Time will tell if B&O can get it's act together or not, so far their ideas are not encouraging to me. The problem is not, I think, that they need one or two stunning products, it's that their whole line lacks the cohesiveness and quality/reliability they used to offer. It's a collection of bits and pieces, not an integrated design language.
Guess I'll go put on my slippers and get my pipe ready now...
Jeff: beolion: Sitting 3.5 metres away, 1080p still looks amazing. And Apple TV is doing the smart thing I need. Definitely true. I am as avid a movie watcher as anyone, and very serious about video performance. 4K really doesn't offer any improvement that I care about or can get excited about. I have a 65 inch Panasonic VT series plasma, supposedly the same panel as the BV12. It's performance is stunning, outstanding black level and shadow detail, which matters far more than 4K. Heck, I still have my 12 year old 42 inch Panasonic EDTV, 480p, and it's contrast and black levels are better than about any LCD based panels, and from 10 feet away you can't tell how many pixels there are, the picture is still outstanding. Like you I use an Apple TV to consolidate the smart TV functions, easier and cheaper to upgrade it if needed than buy another panel, and since they finally made peace with Amazon enough to offer Amazon Prime Video as an app, it does everything I need. This is where the Horizon falls down to me, the design is very attractive, simple, minimalist, but the performance of the panel on blacks and shadow detail is insufficient for something in that price range. I think the video performance of the BV11 is far superior. Time will tell if B&O can get it's act together or not, so far their ideas are not encouraging to me. The problem is not, I think, that they need one or two stunning products, it's that their whole line lacks the cohesiveness and quality/reliability they used to offer. It's a collection of bits and pieces, not an integrated design language. Guess I'll go put on my slippers and get my pipe ready now...
Yep - I have a BV 12 as my main screen, and its way better than the Avant MK 1 in my second room.
Any proper film is watched on the 12, no competition.
As for the Horizon, I had one of these newer panels in the BV14 (prior to the Avant Mk1) - and it was an atrocity for watching movies, simply incompetent at shadow detail.
With respect to viewing distance, I think if you (general you) look at the studies of what the eye can determine, 10 feet is at the very outer edge (or maybe a touch beyond) where 4K is noticeably better than 1080P.
HDR is the main reason for upgrading - but again, coming from the rich and naturalistic colours of a top end plasma, I don't see any great hurry.