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Quality of components in modern B&O systems

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vikinger
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vikinger Posted: Sun, Jan 6 2013 10:46 AM

I spotted this link in the Workbench section. (I suggest that this pdf is worth reading right through even if you have no knowledge of or interest in electronics!)

Basically, Menahem is suggesting that of modern mainstream electronics only Panasonic products are likely to have high quality capacitors and that most chinese made capacitors will have a very short useful working life.

As modern components are not replaceable other than as complete component boards or modules, does this imply that;

1. Many chinese made B&O systems will have a short life?

2. Replacement boards or modules will have an equally short life?

3. You should only purchase vintage B&O equipment containing replaceable capacitors etc?

4. If modern B&O equipment does not have a potentially long life (and I have no idea about whether B&O source special components from chinese suppliers etc), is there still any real merit in paying a premium price for B&O design?

5. Is this a fairly universal problem? I have even heard of very expensive valve hi-fi systems really using a few valves for show, whilst the bulk of the electronics has been based on low quality non-repairable circuitry.

Graham

bidstonhall
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good link, interesting read, even for someone like me who is not technically minded. bit of a worry

 

if the components are well marked and easily identifiable, surely you can see whats inside and draw your own conclusions

 

surely B and O are aware of this and source components accordingly, good read

Peter
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Peter replied on Sun, Jan 6 2013 11:17 AM

I would suggest that most electronics have Chinese components - quite how poor they are is open to debate - I am sure B&O will set quality thresholds. However there is definite reasons for buying old equipment - especially those before widespread chip use as these will be easier to source bits for. Of course trim parts and mechanical parts will be another matter!

This is not that new a phenomenon as much of the newer ranges are starting to have issues, and this is before the manufacturing of components taking place in China. Being made in China per se would not put me off a product as the quality is determined by the specifications ordered by B&O. I do think that overall quality has dropped over the years but that this is true of all makes.

Peter

Dillen
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Dillen replied on Sun, Jan 6 2013 11:22 AM

(To the OP)
Basically no.
In my opinion it merely means that, for some reason or another, Menahem has a sweet spot for Panasonic.

I've used many different brands of capacitors during many many years and, it's my experience that if you
just avoid the cheapest "no-name" brands, you will be fine and you will sit with components that are
superior to anything that was mounted in the 1960s, 70s and early 80s.

1. Modern B&O things will be outdated long before they will go bad because of bad capacitors.

2. They will have the same lifespan - but won't be needed because your item, if that time comes, won't be
worth repairing and the parts and/or modules needed will be long out of production and stock.

3. Vintage B&O all contains replacable capacitors, though they may look more or less different today.
Luckily modern capacitors will work fine in vintage B&O.

4. Yes, it you want nice things now.

5. I don't know. I don't do high-end (or named-to-be high-end) valve stuff.

All components containing fluids will eventually dry out.

Martin

Orava
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Orava replied on Sun, Jan 6 2013 11:23 AM

What worries me, is those preprogrammed/custom digital parts witch are in mercy of manufacturer... Anyway, usually they are soldered in a way that makes them unrepairable, only board or so swappable.  Dont see capacitor and other discrete components as any problem, they are aviable, tough one has to be carefully when working with multilayer boards...

Well wintage isn't allways magic word, as I have one braindead Beomaster 5000, and where can you now buy a new processor for it?

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Paul W
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Paul W replied on Sun, Jan 6 2013 7:59 PM

Interesting point Vikinger but when B&O PLAY can drop their A3 from £449 to £249 apart from showing how over priced the range is, it also shows how cheaply made they are with a HUGE profit margin.

Two years ago I said the BS8 was no more than a £500 system selling for £900 and I was criticised by a few on this site. A B&O name cheaply made in China with profit being the main key point. Yet again, my argument was 100% accurate and I stand by it!

Interesting about Panasonic. I've ALWAYS had at least 10 years use out of their products. Even their cheapest Blu-ray player at £59 currently on offer at Waitrose is assembled in Europe!!!

Peter
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Peter replied on Sun, Jan 6 2013 8:53 PM

Most electronics has a 100% mark up - B&O is certainly not alone here. The A3 is being sold off as it is not compatible with the latest iPad and there are no plans to make a new version. They are clearing the existing stock as it makes no sense to keep this in the catalogue.

I have a fair amount of Panasonic equipment which is excellent but also have a fair amount of Sony and other makes. I cannot think of any make which I have owned which has fallen apart earlier than I would expect, except a Pure radio which was not very impressive. Interestingly, another different model Pure radio has been perfect and is getting on in age now - one of the first Evoke 2s.

Peter

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Sun, Jan 6 2013 9:43 PM

Paul W:

Interesting point Vikinger but when B&O PLAY can drop their A3 from £449 to £249 apart from showing how over priced the range is, it also shows how cheaply made they are with a HUGE profit margin.

Two years ago I said the BS8 was no more than a £500 system selling for £900 and I was criticised by a few on this site. A B&O name cheaply made in China with profit being the main key point. Yet again, my argument was 100% accurate and I stand by it!

Interesting about Panasonic. I've ALWAYS had at least 10 years use out of their products. Even their cheapest Blu-ray player at £59 currently on offer at Waitrose is assembled in Europe!!!

Most of the critisism was about your views on Chinese manufacture rather than your views on B&O's sales and marketing strategy.

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Puncher
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Puncher replied on Sun, Jan 6 2013 9:50 PM

Re the OP, I agree with Dillen, there are plenty of reputable component manufacturers, including capacitors, and all will do a sterling job as long as the correct part for the particular circuit application is specified. Well manufactured and fully specified parts should be used at all times, give cheap no-name components a width berth (and, at the same time, there is no need to overspend on "boutique" so called audiophile parts).

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Jeff
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Jeff replied on Mon, Jan 7 2013 4:51 AM

Just because it's Chinese made doesn't mean it's junk, although they have a higher percentage of crap companies than some countries. I have a friend who is a chief engineer for Harman, he's spent a fair amount of time sourcing Chinese components, and their speakers range from complete crap, no two of which are even remotely the same or to spec, to units that rival the best drivers out there. The trick is knowing which companies to deal with and how to set up your QC program. 

In my past experience, for example, some of the worst drivers for consistency and coming anywhere near the published specs were the prestigious Dynaudio stuff, particularly their woofers. European made. 

Jeff

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Orava
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Orava replied on Mon, Jan 7 2013 9:03 AM

Peter:

Most electronics has a 100% mark up - B&O is certainly not alone here. The A3 is being sold off as it is not compatible with the latest iPad and there

And here is another issue with those digital products, they are obsolote in no time, and thus useless....

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Flappo
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Flappo replied on Mon, Jan 7 2013 9:39 AM

blame bno for being sloth like in their engineering dept , not apple for pushing the envelope design wise

i thought things had changed , but seems not

Step1
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Step1 replied on Mon, Jan 7 2013 12:22 PM

 I also agree with Martin. For instance, Samwha capacitors get slated by some, but all the research I have seen suggests this is largely unfounded! I have used these before and have never had any issues with them, in fact the seem to work very well. I know B&O have also used them too.

However I use pana and michi caps for recaps because I like the fact they have a large range of values which means they are easy to order and also because they seem to offer some extra reassurance to someone who I might be working for. They are also cheaper to source from America than no brand jobs over here in most cases!!!
I have performed numerous blind tests and have not been able to hear ANY difference between the cheapest and more expensive - BTW I only ever hear differences between different models, or when I have not set up speaker switching unit between two hifis and have to unplug the speakers and move across similar hifis funnily enough. I generally stick to like for like (i.e. electrolytic etc) although I often replace tants for electros especially if it is clear b&o used tants for space saving, which they mostly did!!! even voltage ratings, mostly size considerations but I like to go to the effort to pick original specs even though it might not be absolutely necessary!

Olly

Jeff
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Jeff replied on Tue, Jan 8 2013 2:18 AM

Step1:

I have performed numerous blind tests and have not been able to hear ANY difference between the cheapest and more expensive - BTW I only ever hear differences between different models, or when I have not set up speaker switching unit between two hifis and have to unplug the speakers and move across similar hifis funnily enough. 

Not funny at all, the only way to get a reliable listening test is to use rapid switching. Human aural memory is remarkably error prone and short lived, the longer it takes to present the different source to the ear the more the brain drifts and imagines all sorts of differences that just don't exist. 

Jeff

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Beobuddy
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Fairly agree with Martin, except for his first point.

Many brands suffer with leaking capacitors. The nowadays used modern powersupplies with PWM, like with lots of STB's and eg the Beomedia 1, demands more from the capacitors used today then years ago.

Even if you use the more expensive versions, it doesn't take a long time before they need to be replaced.

The assumption from Meneham that capacitors only stabelizes currents and therefore preventing IC's from damage, is a in my opnion a bit shortshighted/incomplete.

Think for example about amplifiers where there has to be a kind of reserve to give you the "punch" in your music, which the PS can't deliver at that moment. Think of any kind of analog delay..

 

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Tue, Jan 8 2013 8:59 AM

Beobuddy:

Many brands suffer with leaking capacitors. The nowadays used modern powersupplies with PWM, like with lots of STB's and eg the Beomedia 1, demands more from the capacitors used today then years ago.

True enough but then in this application it is critical to select a component which can adquately handle the rms ripple current at the operating ambient temperature and operating frequency of the circuit (the rms paper specification will be derated depending on these factors). As I said earlier, reputable components will give all of this information in it's data sheet, allowing these selections/compromises to be properly made to meet the operational life requirements.

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