ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
And on a side note, DPL and Ethernet isn't even separated from each other on Beolab 90 (and 50 I guess) so even if a cable is pulled directly between master and slave speaker, there still is talk between them and the units connected to the ethernet-cable plugged in to one of them - Meaning that there probably will be switched and routed traffic bouncing around no matter what.
Why are you making this so complicated? The speakers come with a connection Master to Slave. I was asked what I wanted to connect and they gave me a PL to RJ lead. All of that was perfectly fine. I was listening to music within 5 minutes. That is not the issue. Getting the speakers to do what you want afterwards is the issue!
Here is an example....
Last night I was using them via WPL from a BV11.
Before shutdown they were returned to "automatic" recognition of input.
But today.....yet again.....nothing!
Unplug, wait 10 minutes, start again.
It's a recurring theme!!!!
Beofile7: Why are you making this so complicated? The speakers come with a connection Master to Slave. I was asked what I wanted to connect and they gave me a PL to RJ lead. All of that was perfectly fine. I was listening to music within 5 minutes. That is not the issue. Getting the speakers to do what you want afterwards is the issue!
I am sorry if you feel I make this complicated. That is not my intention. My intention is to learn more about how the new technology works, how the cabling works and how this technology and routing/cables can be used in different scenarios. It is an interest of mine and I like getting a deeper understanding of stuff, not just plugging it in and then forgetting about it. I simply am curious.One of the key factors for the purchase is the fun of learning and adopting new technologies. Hence my questions - and since B&O does not reveal much of this themselves its not easy to get that information, but people who already have sets installed can see what kind of cables was installed and so on and from there I can gain more knowledge about it.The cable you got was not a PL to RJ lead, it was probably a Powerlink cable with a DIN to a RJ45 connector. What I mean is that it is easy to get lost in terminology. It is important to be precise and take into account everything. By the way, B&O used to and maybe still do call the new cable network BeoNet.
By the way I was wrong about how CAT-cables are usually wired. They are most often "straight" meaning having the same colors on the same pins in both ends (but not always). However, they can be wired in different schemes depending on what kind of goal you have with the transmissions. Commonly T568B or T568A. This means that Powerlink should work without issue over them as it is also a straight cable but sound quality and transmission quality may differ depending on the cables specifications. But, short story is I already have the cabling necessary for my primary setup so I as I said above, I am interested in how, why and the expansion possibilities for example of the new DPL system and how RJ45-design analog powerlink is made in the best way.
Beofile7: Here is an example.... Last night I was using them via WPL from a BV11. Before shutdown they were returned to "automatic" recognition of input. But today.....yet again.....nothing! Unplug, wait 10 minutes, start again. It's a recurring theme!!!!
Am I missing something here? I Don't know the back story but you mention WPL (which is the wireless powerlink using WISA protocol) and it uses 5 GHz wifi signals to communicate. If you also have a router and/or wireless access points (or neighbours) that is using 5 GHz for wifi then it might mean that the radio space is cluttered and that data can not be received properly in the right time space. That makes the speakers super unstable as they fail to be able to deliver a clear and fluid signal. The problem is not the hardware then but the limited radio signal space. Usually the recommendation is to disable 5 GHz in other wifi radios so that the WPL enabled devices gets more freedom (see it as one person speaking instead of the whole class). But, the best recommendation is to just not use WPL and instead use wired connection. However, when using analog PL then noise might be introduced as the cables are easily to interfere with by electric noise. WPL however when interfered with just stops working in choppy steps whereas the analog cable will just introduce sound artifacts. This is why DPL is interesting as it is cabled but digital and therefore better att producing flawless transmissions (especially if it can resend dropped or erroneous databits). And, whereas WPL is the B&O name of WISA, DPL is the B&O name of AVB. A bit strange naming as both is Digital but whatever :). More fun I guess that WISA.And here is a nice video presentation on how AVB is beneficial (DPL). In the video it shows how everything can be centrally connected and I think that is the long term goal of B&Os introduction of it in their lineup. It means that we might not in the future have to pull cables between speakers, simply just connect every item to the central network in your home.
New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0
Mikipedia on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Mikipedia
Mikipedi4 on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mikipedi4
Mikipedia on Intagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikipedi4/
Old: Beosound 9000 mk3, Beolab 3's, Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.
Michael: And here is a nice video presentation on how AVB is beneficial (DPL). In the video it shows how everything can be centrally connected and I think that is the long term goal of B&Os introduction of it in their lineup. It means that we might not in the future have to pull cables between speakers, simply just connect every item to the central network in your home.
And here is a nice video presentation on how AVB is beneficial (DPL). In the video it shows how everything can be centrally connected and I think that is the long term goal of B&Os introduction of it in their lineup. It means that we might not in the future have to pull cables between speakers, simply just connect every item to the central network in your home.
That however, would require a brand new speaker generation (maybe the 50/90 - and the Core - could be sw-updated for this?) and a new SoundCenter gen.
I don’t see that coming soon....if ever - although I would wish for that too.
DPL is not AVB, but it is based on the AVB technology - for time being only for communication between the Master and a Slave speaker and (of course) the digital sound transport.
This might very well be something, that was planned, but postponed due to focussing on other tasks.
It seems thatt B&O is focussing/have to focus on things like multiroom and all-in-one speaker devices for quite some time ahead.
That is what people wish for (read buy) - two channel or multichannel listening is not a biv thing anymore....unfortunately.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Mikipidia:DPL does nothing as of yet. The switches are labelled as such but operate as pl switches. Cat 7 (double shielded) is recommended, but do what ever you please at your own risk. All i can say is that i get artifacts or grounding issues with anything less than cat 7. And don’t put them on other switches or stuff in between. New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beolab 3's, Beosound 9000 mk3, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0 Mikipedia on YouTube (finally ) https://www.youtube.com/c/Mikipedia Old: Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.
Millemissen:That however, would require a brand new speaker generation (maybe the 50/90 - and the Core - could be sw-updated for this?) and a new SoundCenter gen. I don’t see that coming soon....if ever - although I would wish for that too. DPL is not AVB, but it is based on the AVB technology - for time being only for communication between the Master and a Slave speaker and (of course) the digital sound transport. This might very well be something, that was planned, but postponed due to focussing on other tasks. It seems thatt B&O is focussing/have to focus on things like multiroom and all-in-one speaker devices for quite some time ahead. That is what people wish for (read buy) - two channel or multichannel listening is not a biv thing anymore....unfortunately. MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Maybe I can help here with a couple of points by compiling some already-public information into a small set of bullet points to suit the discussion....
However, the statement that "wired audio is better than wireless audio" is a good rule of thumb that is almost always true; all other things being equal, and NOT the "performance bottleneck" (whatever that might mean.... E.G.: f you're playing a 78 RPM acetate over a Bluetooth audio transmission using the SBC codec, why does it sound bad?). However, this is generally a weird statement to make, since the errors that are inherent to a wireless audio system are different from the errors that are inherent in a cabled audio system (whether digital or analogue). It's like asking "would you prefer coffee that's too sweet, or coffee that's too cold?" So, you have to start weighing your personal preference regarding dis-similar problems, which is non-trivial...
Regarding the choice of wires: it is recommended that you use CAT6 to be certain that the WPL connection will work as tested. However, when I'm, doing a setup (which is often...) I typically just grab the first cable I can find, which is a CAT5 or CAT6, depending on what's on the top of the pile - and I don't lose any sleep over this...
* If the two antennae are too far apart then you get too low a signal-to-noise ratio on the RF transmission, so you increase the error rate. I think that we recommend something like ≤9 m between the two - although I've tested it to work at up to 25 m in a no-RF noise environment, with no one walking between the Tx and Rx antennae. If the two antennae are too close together, then you overload the receiver, and you get errors caused by "distortion" of the RF signal. "Too close" is on the order of centimetres. So, if I remember correctly (it was a long time ago), my Tx and RX antennae were about 1 m apart for the test. The two were on opposite ends of a test bench - so that should give you an idea of scale...
If you have more questions, I'd be happy to answer them, assuming that I can and that I'm allowed to do so (meaning that I'd be allowed to make the answer to the question public - meaning, don't ask me about anything that doesn't already exist in the product portfolio - I'm not allowed to help predict the future.... )
Cheers-geoff
We are so lucky to have Geoff here!
A nit to pick on cabling... Geoff is recommending CAT6 and says sometimes he even uses CAT5. Can we infer that CAT7, which is what I thought was the appropriate type of cable, is at least equally acceptable for use as CAT6 or perhaps even “better?”
I notice Steve at Sounds Heavenly is using CAT6 but I swear, I picked up from credible sources that CAT7 was the way to go. I admit some ignorance around network patch cables and specifically around the concept of ”twisted pairs”, which I think is the difference between the two cables in question.
Currently: BeoLab 17, BeoLab 18, BeoSound Core, Beosound Level, Beosound A1 2nd Gen, BeoPlay S8 Connection Hub, Halo, Essence Remote
Previously: BeoSound 1 non-GVA
I said CAT6 is recommended for the connection from the Primary to the Secondary loudspeaker.
I said Wires are better than Wireless for the audio signal to the Primary loudspeaker (I use Power Link from the TV, and then S/PDIF and XLR to the Oppo (S/PDIF For PCM, XLR for DSD), Optical and USB Audio for experimentation, and RCA to a turntable (via a RIAA preamp).
It’s pretty amazing that someone of Geoff’s stature would,be willing to spend his time on a forum with us commoners. Every time I see him post, I think of what a generous guy he is and how lucky we are to have a source direct to HQ. I don’t think this would be common at another brand of B&O’s size. Just endlessly grateful. And also grateful to you forum folks who know more than I, always willing to share your knowledge. Cheers and health to all!
Beolab 28s Beolab 9s Beolab 12-3s Beolab 1s Beolab 6000s 2 pairs Beolab 4000s Beovision 7-55 Beovision 10-40 Beoplay V1 32 inch Beovision Avant 32 inch Beosound 1 (CD player) Beosound 3000 Beosound 5 Core Essence MKII Beoplay M5
Should be fine so.
However, I’d move the left one a bit away from the corner....if possible.
Millemissen:Should be fine so. However, I’d move the left one a bit away from the corner....if possible. If you hang the painting a bit higher, the same placement as the former 20 also would be fine. Even if - as you know - the 50’s can compensate for much, one should seek to find the best placement in regards to the main listening position in the first place. Have fun with your new speakers....you won’t regret buying them. MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Geoff Martin: Maybe I can help here with a couple of points by compiling some already-public information into a small set of bullet points to suit the discussion.... Wireless Power Link like any wireless audio system, will have errors caused by signal interference in the RF domain. Since it's a very low-latency system, there's no possibility of a re-transmission of data, so it uses an error concealment system. This works very well - but it does mean that the system is not perfect (nothing is perfect...). However, those errors are at the bit level - not at the audio level - which is an important distinction. The probability of errors in this system (like any digital audio system) is counted in the number of errors per bit transmitted. Therefore, if you transmit fewer bits per second, you get a lower probability of errors per second. This is why the WPL system is limited to a sampling rate of 48 kHz. However, the last test that I did (before we publicly announced the system) was of a "perfect" WPL setup where the Tx and Rx devices were separated by an optimal distance*, in a "clean" RF environment, and nothing came physically between the Tx and Rx antennae. Running at 8-channel, 48 kHz, 24 bit, I was measuring bit errors, and I got 0 errors in 11 days of continuous testing. That's 0 errors in 8.759 x 10^12 bits (give or take...) So, in an optimal installation, the system works very well. Power Link, like any analogue audio transmission system, will have errors caused by noise, either from the analogue output of the audio source or induced in the transmission over the wire from outside noise sources. In the particular case of Power Link, you have a system that is spec'ed to a source noise floor of 10 µV RMS and a maximum input level of 6.5 V RMS. This gives you a dynamic range of 116.26 dB. BeoLab 50/90 have an analogue dynamic range of more than 120 dB (I've measured this myself, so I'm confident in stating that), where the maximum output is aligned with the maximum signal of the Power Link input - so the noise that you hear is coming from the source, not the loudspeaker. The DPL system used to transmit the signal from the primary Beolab 90/50 to the secondary loudspeaker is based on the AVB protocol (running at a 192 kHz / 24 bit LPCM, with extra proprietary metadata ("data about the data" - things like volume setting and Preset number, for example) along for the ride. Note that the AVB transmission incurs some latency, which is accounted for in the system. Therefore, if you put something (like an AVB-compatible router, as someone mentioned in this thread) between the two loudspeakers, there is no guarantee that the metadata will get through, and the latency matching will likely be "broken" - so this is probably a bad idea - or at least "not recommended". The Active Room Compensation in the Beolab 50/90 is a multichannel processing system. This means that the ARC signal that is emitted by each loudspeaker is derived from both input channels. In other words, you might get John & Paul in one loudspeaker and George & Ringo in the other - but the room compensation signal for John & Paul AND George & Ringo is coming out of each loudspeaker - and those two signals (the Left ARC signal and the Right ARC signal) are different. When the loudspeakers are connected via analogue or cabled digital, then both input channels are sent to both loudspeaker (meaning, for example, that the Left and Right input channels are sent to the "Left" loudspeaker). HOWEVER, the WPL receivers are one-channel - which means that the Left loudspeaker only gets the Left input channel (for example). This, in turn, means that a portion of the ARC is not working (since the Right input channel doesn't get to the Left loudspeaker). SO: If you want "maximum performance" (whatever that means) from your Beolab 50/90s then it is recommended that you use a cabled audio signal. However, the statement that "wired audio is better than wireless audio" is a good rule of thumb that is almost always true; all other things being equal, and NOT the "performance bottleneck" (whatever that might mean.... E.G.: f you're playing a 78 RPM acetate over a Bluetooth audio transmission using the SBC codec, why does it sound bad?). However, this is generally a weird statement to make, since the errors that are inherent to a wireless audio system are different from the errors that are inherent in a cabled audio system (whether digital or analogue). It's like asking "would you prefer coffee that's too sweet, or coffee that's too cold?" So, you have to start weighing your personal preference regarding dis-similar problems, which is non-trivial... Regarding the choice of wires: it is recommended that you use CAT6 to be certain that the WPL connection will work as tested. However, when I'm, doing a setup (which is often...) I typically just grab the first cable I can find, which is a CAT5 or CAT6, depending on what's on the top of the pile - and I don't lose any sleep over this... * If the two antennae are too far apart then you get too low a signal-to-noise ratio on the RF transmission, so you increase the error rate. I think that we recommend something like ≤9 m between the two - although I've tested it to work at up to 25 m in a no-RF noise environment, with no one walking between the Tx and Rx antennae. If the two antennae are too close together, then you overload the receiver, and you get errors caused by "distortion" of the RF signal. "Too close" is on the order of centimetres. So, if I remember correctly (it was a long time ago), my Tx and RX antennae were about 1 m apart for the test. The two were on opposite ends of a test bench - so that should give you an idea of scale... If you have more questions, I'd be happy to answer them, assuming that I can and that I'm allowed to do so (meaning that I'd be allowed to make the answer to the question public - meaning, don't ask me about anything that doesn't already exist in the product portfolio - I'm not allowed to help predict the future.... ) Cheers-geoff
Thank you Geoff for these great and explanatory answers to my questions! I am very curious about DPL and the future of this in B&O as I can see a DPL port also on the BeoSound Core. On my avant 55 I see for future use-ports and kind of wish one of them is also a DPL but I also realize that development of that platform is stopped and that even that it might technically be possible it isnt in practicality. As the Beolab 50/90 seemingly also share the exact same motherboard or input board at least, except for XLR inputs I can see that both the master and slave has three DPL ports each and that is at least one more than necessary (on the master) as one is used for internet/app/web connectivity - by the way is it possible to use a DPL port on any of the speakers for this? I noticed that both speakers appear as DHCP clients on my network so I suppose this is possible. I also wonder if it is OK to use a ethernet cable to the "regular" network that is not shielded. In my home, all the CAT-cables in the walls are the non shielded Cat6 or Cat5 kind. The cable between the both speakers is a Cat 7 shielded cable and seems to work fine although a bit thick. I also use the same kind of cable between the Avant and the master speaker for Powerlink and it seems to work fine. I can only hear slight noise from the tweeter but suppose this is just the amplifiers own noise. It is lower than it was on Beolab 20 with the thin MK3 cable. At least for my ear. Another question is regarding microphone. My dealer, and even the flagship store in CPH did not want to sell me or lend me or rent out a microphone. I find that odd. It is not hard to calibrate. I did use my avant microphone to calibrate the avant with the speakers. Easy. Can I use that microphone? I actually have two so if i can patch one to the RF45 then that would be perfect. Or make an adapter cable. A friend suggested using UMIK-1 microphone (genelec geek from finland). It says in one of the introduction videos you talk in that the microphone is included but for me it was not, although I bought second hand BL50 the first owner said it did not come with them. So a bit confused. As a tech guy I do not even want anyone else to do the installation, it is an experience and fun to do myself. And good to be able to do as I might move speakers slightly. And, what is the difference by calibrating in the TV and the speakers? Should I even do both? I suppose the speakers use more DSP for cancelling sound and acoustical issues and that the TV more or less only tries to define level and distance. But I dont know if the TV actually do some more DSP processing itself. I have many more questions but don't want to ask too much at once, but I also did realize a few things i mentioned on a thread for the software:- can the tweeter be dimmed so its not always on? Its a bit distracting.- can the time before tweeter is turned off/speaker turned off be specified so that switching between speaker groups by mistake does not incur having to wait a long while while the speaker makes its dance and clickes? I think it is unnecessary wear on the speakers and could be a better user experience if possible to set a delay.- can the wifi module be disabled so its not powered for no reason? wired speakers dont need wifi on. So many questions and long texts. Sorry about it. Just curious and looking forward to trying them for more time. Although the speakers sound so much more dominant (and stonehenge-dominantly so visually in my small living room) I might have to let them go sooner than later if I dont want my neighbors to complain. It feels like at any volume, they make more noise that might interfere with them than my old beolab 20 did, even though they also pack a punch it is a completely different thing. Somewhat it feels like all the frequencies are more elevated or pronounced in the 50s than in the 20s that would flex their muscles much less and just punch when really necessary, like in an explosion. Just watching sons of anarchy is so different as the motorcycles really sound like ten motorcycles is passing in my room compared to before where it was more like just a "recording". I need a vine connoisseur to help me find words..
Cheers, Michael
Razlaw:The Technical Sound Guide mentions on page 40 that the source should be set to fixed level out and that the 50s volume control should be used. Set up this way the Halo will not control the volume. Is it OK to set up the 50s using the variable level out on the Core? Or will that cause a lower level of sound quality? Possibility of damaging the 50s? Just wishing I could use the Halo with my Core and 50s. Thanks! Beolab 50s Beolab 9s Beolab 12-3s Beolab 1s Beolab 6000s 2 pairs Beolab 4000s Beovision 7-55 Beovision 10-40 Beoplay V1 32 inch Beovision Avant 32 inch Beosound 1 (CD player) Beosound 3000 Beosound 5 Core Essence MKII Beoplay M5
Hi,
> I am very curious about DPL and the future of this in B&O
Sorry, but I can't make any public statements about anything that is not in the current portfolio of products.
Also, please note that all other questions that do not apply to acoustics (e.g. timeout on lights) are outside my purview, so I can't address them.
> I also wonder if it is OK to use a ethernet cable to the "regular" network that is not shielded.
As I already said above in this thread, B&O recommends that you use a CAT6. I just use a CAT5 or 6 - whatever I find first.
> I did use my avant microphone to calibrate the avant with the speakers. Easy. Can I use that microphone?
The microphone for the Avant cannot be used for the Beolab 50s or 90s. Neither can a third-party microphone with a custom adapter cable, since the loudspeakers "know" the response of the correct microphone, and this is part of the compensation calculations.
> And, what is the difference by calibrating in the TV and the speakers?
The automatic configuration for the television is just that - a configuration tool. It automatically detects distance and level.
The calibration in the Beolab 50s and 90s is for the ARC filters, and does not calibrate for distance nor level.
> The Technical Sound Guide mentions on page 40 that the source should be set to fixed level out and that the 50s volume control should be used.
> Is it OK to set up the 50s using the variable level out on the Core? Or will that cause a lower level of sound quality?
This recommendation is to maximise signal-to-noise ratio (SNR). "Sound Quality" is a multidimensional issue that also includes preference. So, if you set up your system with the loudspeakers at max volume, and you vary the input signal level instead AND you do not have a problem with the noise floor (which is dependent on lots of things - including the background noise level in your listening room) then you do not have a problem.
> The main input, Powerlink, is a variable input and is set to 90 in the speakers always, so it’s always using the worse solution for B&O connected devices except for the core and Beosound cd stereos over spdif. Weird huh?
It's not weird if you're thinking on a portfolio scale. If Power Link did not work that way, then someone using Beolab 50s or 90s in a multichannel setup would have to use two volume controls to ensure that the system maintained the same level in all loudspeakers.
Cheers
-geoff
Geoff Martin:> The Technical Sound Guide mentions on page 40 that the source should be set to fixed level out and that the 50s volume control should be used.> Is it OK to set up the 50s using the variable level out on the Core? Or will that cause a lower level of sound quality? This recommendation is to maximise signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) . "Sound Quality" is a multidimensional issue that also includes preference. So, if you set up your system with the loudspeakers at max volume, and you vary the input signal level instead AND you do not have a problem with the noise floor (which is dependent on lots of things - including the background noise level in your listening room) then you do not have a problem.Cheers-geoff
Raz, does this mean you’ll buy a Halo now? :)