3D sound

Anyone read last week's/ 28th Jan issue of The New Yorker? There is a long article on 3D sound. 3D sound is still a work under progress but I must say the effects are quite a huge leap from conventional stereo. If anybody own's a digital edition of the New Yorker, try listening to the samples either through your headphones or speakers. The Chinese investors behind Jambox are supporting this tech big time. Perhaps it's time B&O get ahead of the curve and start getting involved too? Apparently 3D sound is achievable simply by some sophisticated DSP. 

B&O had a stand with Audi at the CES showcasing 3D sound. They had 23 speakers in an Audi A7 concept car, and a listening room - here is a little excerpt:

As well as experiencing the new standards set by the Q7, you can also witness the revolutionary 3D audio technology for yourself at the listening room at the Consumer Electronic Show in Las Vegas, located in the Audi booth 1130 in North Hall. The room will also contain an impressive array of Bang & Olufsen products, including:

• 18 fully active Bang & Olufsen speakers, including seven floor standing BeoLab 5’s and ceiling mounted BeoLab 3’s, all showcasing the patented acoustic lens technology as seen in B&O car audio systems

• More than 20 KW of ICEpower amplification built in the speakers

• A 103” BeoVision 4 plasma TV, the ultimate in home cinema viewing

Meet our partners

Bang & Olufsen and Audi first began to cooperate in 2005 and have since introduced a number of innovations in car audio. We both share a focus on technological innovation as well as pioneering and innovative design. Now, we have teamed up with Fraunhofer IIS, a worldwide authority in the field of advanced audio and acoustic signal processing. Together we present the Audi Q7 Concept Car – a genuine landmark in car audio.

Looks like they ARE ahead of the curve !

Can't see it being applied in most peoples home though - getting 5 speakers in your average room is one thing, 7 is a challenge - above that I guess high end dedicated cinema rooms only.

Oh no 3D sound from stereo. People know about surround sound but..... 

You will get feeling as if the performers are right beside you even with just two speakers or through your headphones. That's major. 

I'm not sure it's as wonderful as it may sound (can't read full article). Binauaral music has been around for ages whereby specially recorded sounds using an artifical head or HRTF can create realistic 3D reproduction into headphones but has had limited success. If your interested search for binaural music/recordings.

The claim here is to reconstruct this from stereo existing recordings - this implies that the recording was made with only a stereo pair. It would also seem that it would only really work if listened to using headphones as listening on speakers will create additional reflections which will ruin the carefully seperated L&R information.

Normal multitrack recorded music with an artificial stereo image and reverbs etc. would see little benefit in even attempting this unless it was recorded specifically with this in mind.

Oh i dunno. Yes it is somewhat based on binaural recordings but basically they are now working on a DSP that can apply 3D on existing music recorded in normal stereo. 

I am sure there is something to it otherwise what's with the investors and continuing work on it?

The point of the article is that focussed attention on music is a concept contrary to the way humans "normally" enjoy music. Being immmersed = being focussed = outmoded and stale concept of music enjoyment

wonderfulelectric:

Oh i dunno. Yes it is somewhat based on binaural recordings but basically they are now working on a DSP that can apply 3D on existing music recorded in normal stereo. 

I am sure there is something to it otherwise what's with the investors and continuing work on it?

People used to invest in alchemy!

Well where do you think diamond deposition techniques comes from? 

I believe every thought/idea exist to serve a purpose. Which reminds me of something.... You know how parents' would discourage their children from spending too much time on mindless computer games? Now plenty of the technologies used to create those very games have been applied to medical science to great effects. So.... It's hard to say what is useless or useful etc.... 

Sorry I am a little buddhist.... But being buddhist is quite a general term since in theory everyone is one. 

Instead of creating 3D sound from stereo speakers I think the future for surround is Dolby Atmos. Instead of carrying a 7.1 or a 5.1 signal it has up to 128 channels and based on your particular configuration and placement of speakers these the sound stage will be configured for your specific configuration. This is only in cinemas yet, but it will come to home cinemas eventually. http://designingsound.org/2012/11/my-impressions-of-dolby-atmos/

 

 

I'm sorry but whoop di do...the old Carver Sonic Hologram generator and Q Sound do the same thing. Both were interesting to uncanny with some music, and both deservedly died as they didn't really provide anything much other than the gee whiz factor. I had a Carver unit, it was a load of fun but long term didn't become a must listen piece of gear. I have DVD-A in my car, it sounds amazing on the one disc I have, the demo disk that came with my car, but seen much, or any, DVD-A lately!

Solution in search of a problem, or even interest. 

CheapB:

Instead of creating 3D sound from stereo speakers I think the future for surround is Dolby Atmos. Instead of carrying a 7.1 or a 5.1 signal it has up to 128 channels and based on your particular configuration and placement of speakers these the sound stage will be configured for your specific configuration. This is only in cinemas yet, but it will come to home cinemas eventually. http://designingsound.org/2012/11/my-impressions-of-dolby-atmos/

 

 

Well 3D sound from stereo is way more affordable than any surround out there.

But 128 speakers for a theatre?! I imagine only the largest cinemas having that kind of installation! Sounds like a major major undertaking. 

so the intent for home use is obviously not to have 128 speakers- even the best movie theaters are deploying 64 speakers. the key to this is in the availability of 128 discrete channels - so the combination of  the number of speakers - 5.1 or 7.1, 9.2 - and the capabilities and position of the speakers will determine what is being sent to each speaker. I agree there has been a number formats that never took off such as DVD-A HD-DVD, SACD etc, but this is actually being rolled out to movie theaters. 

Of course. Movie ticket sales are plummeting and they need to give people the reason to go back to the Cinemas again. The Dolby Atmos is definitely going to help. 

If you look at the history of the cinema business, it's been a constant battle against irrelevance to try and get audience back when technological elements keep letting people entertain themselves at home for less money. First it was moving to a wider rectangular format vs the older 4:3 movie films, to combat the arrival of TVs on the scene. This progressed to the point of Cinemascope and truly wide screen spectaculars on very large screens.

Then when that started to fade during the VCR era, surround sound came in in the mid 70's. Soon surround sound started penetrating the home market, and 16:9 TVs hit, with flat screens getting ever larger. So, 3D was supposed to be the saving tech, but a combination of the fact that to a lot of people it's a gimmick, and the fact that 3D TVs are common has erroded the draw of 3D.

Theaters are suffering these days perhaps more than ever. I recently went to see The Hobbit in 3D, it was and remains the only 3D film I've ever seen in the theater and in 3D. I figured if I was going to go see one I should see the current state of the art in 3D, the 48 fps best available. It was neat, had some interesting moments, but honestly I couldn't care less, to me its a gimmick and didn't really add anything outside of a gee whiz factor.

Theaters are suffering, but then they deserve to for charging 10 bucks for a box of popcorn...

OMG! I personally abhor 3D. Hurts my eyes plus it really detracts me from focusing on the literally content of the movie itself. I can't follow the storyline! 

People rather wait for Hi-def releases now... and with Itunes .... netflix.... hulu... youtube... And the hi-def projectors available for home use.... BTW I am waiting for 4K projector prices to plummet to below 10K before I make the plunge so if any of you know... 

I really think 4K movies will really make a bigger impact than say 3D. We are talking about super sharp and precise pictures here so.... Like retina quality displays... lol. 

I think 3D sound will really make it one day though. I mean it defers from surround in a way that performers sound like they have each their own space in the soundstage. Surround just throws the sound at you whereas with 3D there's depth and space involved. 

You obviously haven't heard a good surround sound music system, as what you describe is exactly what they can deliver. The problem being almost no one mixes for it, the technology is already there, any 5.1 or 7.1 system, set up properly, can be fed a signal that will astound you in realism. The problem is almost no one will do it, they don't think the market's there (true), and there are not that many good surround sound mixing studios available for audio only mixing as opposed to movie effects. That and most audio/music redording engineers don't know how to mix for that. A combination of things which sadly has kept the approach from gaining in popularity.

I have to snicker when some new tech claims to solve the problems that have been solved for decades. It's not the tech, it's the stunning lack of interest.

Jeff:

I have to snicker when some new tech claims to solve the problems that have been solved for decades. It's not the tech, it's the stunning lack of interest

Definately one of the most accurate paragraphs I've read in a while.

 

wonderfulelectric:

OMG! I personally abhor 3D. Hurts my eyes plus it really detracts me from focusing on the literally content of the movie itself. I can't follow the storyline!

People rather wait for Hi-def releases now... and with Itunes .... netflix.... hulu... youtube... And the hi-def projectors available for home use.... BTW I am waiting for 4K projector prices to plummet to below 10K before I make the plunge so if any of you know...

I really think 4K movies will really make a bigger impact than say 3D. We are talking about super sharp and precise pictures here so.... Like retina quality displays... lol.

I think 3D sound will really make it one day though. I mean it defers from surround in a way that performers sound like they have each their own space in the soundstage. Surround just throws the sound at you whereas with 3D there's depth and space involved.

This, we in the eyecare community suspect now, is evidence that you should check out if you have an eye-syncing or eye-tracking problem/deficiency. BTW, standard exams don't check routinely for this, which is why 3D is revealing latent problems in this area.

B

bsantini:

wonderfulelectric:

 

OMG! I personally abhor 3D. Hurts my eyes plus it really detracts me from focusing on the literally content of the movie itself. I can't follow the storyline!

 

People rather wait for Hi-def releases now... and with Itunes .... netflix.... hulu... youtube... And the hi-def projectors available for home use.... BTW I am waiting for 4K projector prices to plummet to below 10K before I make the plunge so if any of you know...

 

I really think 4K movies will really make a bigger impact than say 3D. We are talking about super sharp and precise pictures here so.... Like retina quality displays... lol.

 

I think 3D sound will really make it one day though. I mean it defers from surround in a way that performers sound like they have each their own space in the soundstage. Surround just throws the sound at you whereas with 3D there's depth and space involved.

 

 

 

 

This, we in the eyecare community suspect now, is evidence that you should check out if you have an eye-syncing or eye-tracking problem/deficiency. BTW, standard exams don't check routinely for this, which is why 3D is revealing latent problems in this area.

 

 

B

Interesting... Thanks for the heads up! 

I spent a fair amount of my career working in modeling and simulation for training, and we encountered a similar problem that's labeled "simulator sickness" or simsick. We saw it mostly in fully immersive head mounted displays, and often it occurred due to a lack of tracking between what your inner ear said your head motion was, vs. what the visual image said it was. If you moved your head X deg, and the visual field moved X + or - n degrees, depending on what n was you could have a problem. If n was really big your brain tended to ignore it and say this is just messed up, but if n was small but not lower than a threshold that varied by individual, the brain gets confused between believing one vs. the other and some real nausea can occur.

Of course some people get simsick no matter how accurate the tracking. We used to run student lab rats thru the helmet mounted display immersive trainer to get lots of data on different people, and we would always crank the air conditioning to freezing and put a bucket next to the chair. One simulator conference Hughes was showing a completely immersive ride on a full motion platform that slamed you around pretty well. It was freezing in it, and as everyone staggered down the stairs after the ride they would hand you a little bag with 3 chocolate chip cookies in it thanking you for not tossing your cookies in the ride.

My last director at a sim company was so bad he'd get nauseated after about 5 minutes playing with a simulator watching it on a 21 inch computer monitor in a brightly lit room. About the worst case of it I've seen, funny for a guy directing a simulator company office.

Gosh Jeff... What special field of work are you exactly in? Not psychology I suppose. Don't sound like it. Aeronautics? 

I'm a physicist who's spent the past 35 years working as a systems engineer for aerospace and simulation companies, with a short sidetrack in computer forensics research. I also did a bit of loudspeaker design consulting and audio measurement in there from time to time. Hard to get a lot of money at that, not many positions and it's like being a male prostitute, so many are willing to do it for free!

Jeff:

I'm a physicist who's spent the past 35 years working as a systems engineer for aerospace and simulation companies, with a short sidetrack in computer forensics research. I also did a bit of loudspeaker design consulting and audio measurement in there from time to time. Hard to get a lot of money at that, not many positions and it's like being a male prostitute, so many are willing to do it for free!

Lol.... 

Well if I need help designing loudspeakers..... Oh is there a private messaging function here? Msg me your email add. It will be after I my solo art exhibition... OMG... Actually I might need help in that too....

We can discuss in detail in email. But project will only commence next yr when my trust fund mature and when I get myself out there. That's my plan for this yr.... Be a male prostitute and throw myself at art gallerists. 

( PS. Whatever I am planning to do will not affect B&O sales at all not a competition. They will be priced differently and targeted at a different market sector. I am really doing it for myself since ..... B&O isn't making loudspeakers I can buy without compromising .... Just FYI... In case anybody start throwing acid again...)