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Do you REALLY need a 4k def TV ?

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This post has 22 Replies | 2 Followers

olvisab
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olvisab Posted: Wed, Mar 27 2013 6:18 PM

Hi

According to the facts :

- most of the tv program are still in sd definition

- the quality of tv programs are getting worse and worse

- it is already hard to find a new blu ray edition better than the previous dvd for the 20th century movies

- upscale of your sd movies collection is actually possible up to actual HD but it will be surely a disaster up to 4k

- you will be obliged to download your 4k def movies because there will be no more physical support.

How long will the download last and how much will it cost ?

...

So I wonder, If we really need a 4k def tv ?

 

 

4 beolab 5,  beolab 9, beolab 10, beolab 5000, beolab 8000 mk2, beolab 6002, beolab 3500, beovision 7 55 mk2,  2 beovision 11 46 mk4, beotime, beosound ouverture, beosound essence, beoplay A8, beomaster 900 RG de luxe and the collection continues...

Stoobietoo
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I'm not saying this is my genuine opinion, but for all the equivalent reasons back in the day of Black and White TV, we didn't really need colour Big Smile

 

Stoobie

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 6:59 PM

olvisab:

So I wonder, If we really need a 4k def tv ?

You've forgotten the most important point - most terrestrial broadcasters do not have the bandwidth (or demand) to stream any 4K TV. As you say, HD channels have reduced in quality as Sky and others have reduced the bandwidth.

Most Brits struggle to stream HD movies via Apple TV at (3GB each), never mind 100GB 4K downloads. It's a pipe dream.

Chris Townsend
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I'm not so sure. BT were advertising their new 10 terabyte broadband speed for their new fibre, and Netflix want to start distributing 4k on their Network starting next year.

Sure their will always be technological problems with the distribution but if the companies think they can make some good money after the bad 3d experience, I'd be amazed if suddenly it could be made to work. Seems to be the next big wheeze to help separate more money from us.

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Orava
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Orava replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 7:16 PM

I would say, absolutely Not. Why buy technology when there is mainly crap produced to it? I'm happy with my current video stuff. I dont even have 3D, no reason good enough yet.

 

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Bv7Mk3
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Bv7Mk3 replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 7:16 PM

4K is the next stage of tv screen progress.Content will be on Bluray or Download and not forgetting 4K Games which will be driven by the New Ps4 With 4k Proccessing!

Panasonic already has  20" to 28" 4K monitor which will go on sale and at the right price things will take off and as 1080p sets stop being produced 4K will take over in time!

Up scaled Dvd looks so so but Blu looks good,4k even better but your eyes can only see so much and there is a point in time when you get to a res that you cannot see the diffrence but 4k is something you should notice! One of the good things for 4K is home projectors! Clearer pic's and maybe bigger screens if you have the room!

 

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 7:33 PM

Chris Townsend:
I'm not so sure. BT were advertising their new 10 terabyte broadband speed for their new fibre, and Netflix want to start distributing 4k on their Network starting next year.

Good luck getting it. Advertising is one thing, getting it is another. This is my area :)

Four major issues:

1) Fibre cabinets are a rare find. Your exchange might be fibre-enabled, but the cabinet also has to support FTTC. Most do not. I can't find many offices in Bath which have access to fibre. My home doesn't in a central BA1 area. Same with Yorkshire. Fibre-enabled exchange, no cabinet.

2) FTTP is required for such bandwidth. Providing FTTP is incredibly expensive for existing homes. Most FTTC users often report slower-than-expected bandwidth as they are more than 500m from their exchange. Most Brits with fibre still only receive an average 5Mbits/s as they are so far from their exchange.

3) Servers. The biggest bottleneck is providing the content from fast enough servers, a reason why Apple are building huge datacenters. You need to be able to push the data fast enough. People do not realise that most commercial servers sit on a maximum throughput of 100Mbit/s. Maximum. And that's with 1 person connected (getting 100Mbit/s). 10 people connected to the server, the max is 10Mbit/s/person and so on. Therefore the servers delivering the content, from most providers, is a bottleneck. In addition, the routing. We have no end of issues with our Australian customers downloading content from our German server. The routing causes problems for relatively small 200MB files. Give them a 1GB file (100x smaller than a 4K movie) and they simply cannot get it on their computer. The routing between Germany and Australia is so poor that the download crawls along, even though the server is on a 1GB/s pipe.

4) Capped broadband. As customer's are demanding cheaper broadband (few home users want to pay over £15/month for broadband), their broadband is capped at 100GB of data/month or less. One 4K download would wipe this in one go. Impractical. Even if they have an unlimited broadband connection, there's a fair use policy and 4K streaming will cause issues. Either users will have to pay more for their broadband (as ISPs have to rent their bandwidth) or capping will be more widely enforced. 

Lots of obstacles. Don't believe the PR :)

rob08
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rob08 replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 7:51 PM
I'd say that you don't need one right now. But give it a year or so. And yea, I think I really need one. Not really for tv but movies, games and live sports, sure.

A point about bandwidth is that there's a new codec that's coming soon HEVC or H.265 which promises double resolution at the same size as a 1080p today.
Puncher
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Puncher replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 8:06 PM

moxxey:

Chris Townsend:
I'm not so sure. BT were advertising their new 10 terabyte broadband speed for their new fibre, and Netflix want to start distributing 4k on their Network starting next year.

Good luck getting it. Advertising is one thing, getting it is another. This is my area :)

Three major issues:

1) Fibre cabinets are a rare find. Your exchange might be fibre-enabled, but the cabinet also has to support FTTC. Most do not. I can't find many offices in Bath which have access to fibre. My home doesn't in a central BA1 area. Same with Yorkshire. Fibre-enabled exchange, no cabinet.

2) FTTP is required for such bandwidth. Providing FTTP is incredibly expensive for existing homes. Most FTTC users often report slower-than-expected bandwidth as they are more than 500m from their exchange. Most Brits with fibre still only receive an average 5Mbits/s as they are so far from their exchange.

3) Servers. The biggest bottleneck is providing the content from fast enough servers, a reason why Apple are building huge datacenters. You need to be able to push the data fast enough. People do not realise that most commercial servers sit on a maximum throughput of 100Mbit/s. Maximum. And that's with 1 person connected (getting 100Mbit/s). 10 people connected to the server, the max is 10Mbit/s/person and so on. Therefore the servers delivering the content, from most providers, is a bottleneck. In addition, the routing. We have no end of issues with our Australian customers downloading content from our German server. The routing causes problems for relatively small 200MB files. Give them a 1GB file (100x smaller than a 4K movie) and they simply cannot get it on their computer. The routing between Germany and Australia is so poor that the download crawls along, even though the server is on a 1GB/s pipe.

Lots of obstacles. Don't believe the PR :)

Just got FTTC, firstly had to buy an N dongle for my (old) lappy as the G wireless adapter within limited my wireless connection speed to ~19Mbps. With N dongle I get a wireless download speed of ~38Mbps a real step up from my previous 1.5Mbps ADSL connection - but it just doesn't seem that much better during normal web browsing, the limits are elsewhere as Moxxey says. On the one occasion I've used a P2P site the fastest speed I noticed during the download of a 2Gb file was ~2MBps (or ~16Mbps) - less than half my maximum capability. (Of course others can also use the same connection and get similar speeds) but it seems quite rare to ever approach the maximum on a single download from normal sites.

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Banix
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Banix replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 8:12 PM

I believe 4K will be especially useful when used in bigger screens (and projectors) as well as large computer monitors. Regarding the content there is still a long way to go but personally I very rarely watch TV. I prefer films, series and documentaries of my own choosing and I have no problem downloading them and waiting a while before I watch them. As was mentioned previously gaming can take advantage of the higher resolution but as of today Sony states that the PS4 will not support 4K gaming, only video playback and photos. 

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Jeff
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Jeff replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 8:25 PM

Most people probably need about as much as they need high definition audio files. I sit about 16 feet away from a 65 inch 1080p plasma set and I can count the hairs on an actors head and easily tell what the texture of their clothing is like, so unless I went with a radically bigger screen there's no way I'd need it. In my last house I sat about 10 or 11 feet from a 480p set, not even HD, and it was as sharp and detailed as you could want, at that distance and screen size (42 inch) HD was not distinguishable, except for the fact that when I bought the set the 720p sets had lower contrast ratios, which was a whole lot more noticeable than resolution.

 

Jeff

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Puncher
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Puncher replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 8:27 PM

Banix:
Sony states that the PS4 will not support 4K gaming, only video playback and photos. 

Which sort of makes sense - computing 4K screen resolutions in real time could severely dent the available fps rates whereas streaming them from disc or t'interweb doesn't need anything like the same horsepower.

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Raeuber
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Raeuber replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 9:18 PM
Hello,

of course we don't need 4K at the moment because of the lack of 4K content.

But if the industry and clever dealers will tell their customers that 4K is a must-have-feature, customers will buy 4K tellies.

A few weeks ago I visited a friend of mine. He presented me his new TV and told me of the extraordanary features: 600 Hz, Full HD and so on. But I recognized a lousy picture quality. Why? He ha connected his receiver via Scart!😄

Greetings

Räuber
Puncher
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Puncher replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 9:38 PM

Raeuber:
He ha connected his receiver via Scart!

The future-proof connector from the past!!Big Smile

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Bv7Mk3
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Bv7Mk3 replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 10:00 PM

Did Someone just Swear? lol....Did I hear that word Scart Surprise   You must  write out 100 times..

" I must use HDMI...I must use HDMI" lol.

tournedos
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tournedos replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 10:12 PM

At least SCART doesn't carry HDCP Stick out tongue

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olvisab
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olvisab replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 10:14 PM

Raeuber:
of course we don't need 4K at the moment because of the lack of 4K content.

When you see the poor quality of the blu ray production, you really wonder when they will be able to make their 4k offer.

I don't know if you like movies and cinema, but what we do with the "old" movies from the 20th century, directly to the bin ?

The only interest I see , is to take us more money whereas they didn't fulfil theirs promises for HD :

-not enough HD tv programs

-an offer of blu ray limited in quantity and quality

I am surprised to read that A.... intend to enter in the TV market with a 4k TV as I really doubt of its fast success.

4 beolab 5,  beolab 9, beolab 10, beolab 5000, beolab 8000 mk2, beolab 6002, beolab 3500, beovision 7 55 mk2,  2 beovision 11 46 mk4, beotime, beosound ouverture, beosound essence, beoplay A8, beomaster 900 RG de luxe and the collection continues...

Playdrv4me
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Playdrv4me replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 10:27 PM

I do have to admit I am completely amused with a discussion about "needs" on a B&o forum. But irrespective of that, of course we don't "need" 4k. Just as we didn't "need" 1080p, 720p, stereo, VHS, Beta, or color TV... The nature of technology is such that it progresses, sometimes it progresses to a point that no one wants (*cough* 3D *cough*, home Beta etc.) and sometimes its a runaway success (VHS, DVD). But that is no reason to STOP adopting new technologies and improving.

I for one am a total resolution whore, give me all the pixels! I have a Retina Macbook Pro, and an iPhone 5 and I love the richness and ease of text reading on these very high res displays. I do think there's a point where too much resolution is overkill, but 4k for a good sized television is definitely NOT that point. Sharp already has working 8k demonstration sets. Of course, B&o will be two years behind everyone else in releasing a 4K set anyway, so I'm not even sure that it's anything to be worried about, as by the time B&o bites the bullet on 4k, the technology will likely already be well entrenched. Right now, the only way to reliably get 4k content is Sony's amusing solution when, after spending 25k on their X900 84 inch set, you receive a dedicated computer box with a hard drive loaded with 4k movies and content. In other words, they have to PHYSICALLY deliver the content to you.

But still, that the backend isn't there to support 4k YET, well that's not really my problem, that simply means that the backend needs to evolve with the picture and it will. And I assure there will always be someone out there who will have technology to sell on all fronts.

olvisab
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olvisab replied on Wed, Mar 27 2013 10:41 PM

The progress don't annoy me, you follow it or not.

The problem for me again is that they didn't fulfil theirs promises for the HD blu ray content and this new 4k hd  risks to lower again our liberty (no more support/only download) and equality (for download).

I even don't have actually gigabit ethernet in my area.

4 beolab 5,  beolab 9, beolab 10, beolab 5000, beolab 8000 mk2, beolab 6002, beolab 3500, beovision 7 55 mk2,  2 beovision 11 46 mk4, beotime, beosound ouverture, beosound essence, beoplay A8, beomaster 900 RG de luxe and the collection continues...

valve1
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valve1 replied on Thu, Mar 28 2013 7:51 AM

olvisab:
- the quality of tv programs are getting worse and worse

+1

 

linder
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linder replied on Thu, Mar 28 2013 4:42 PM

I don't know if we really nead 4K TV but I think it will happen quickly over the next 3 years.  Here are some interesting links on the subject.

A European broadcast provider who claims they are ready.

http://www.eutelsat.com/products/broadcast-ultra-hd.html

I think I would buy this TV if the rumor is true.

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/03/26/apple-working-on-4k-ultra-hd-television-set-for-late-2013-or-early-2014-launch/

valve1
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valve1 replied on Thu, Mar 28 2013 5:02 PM

moxxey:
Good luck getting it. Advertising is one thing, getting it is another. This is my area :)

The ball park figures are 4megs for streaming standard definition and 10 megs for high def. There is a company here claiming they can deliver 50megs where the have cable.

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Thu, Mar 28 2013 6:19 PM

valve1:

moxxey:
Good luck getting it. Advertising is one thing, getting it is another. This is my area :)

The ball park figures are 4megs for streaming standard definition and 10 megs for high def. There is a company here claiming they can deliver 50megs where the have cable.

Correct, if you have FTTP (and most of us - well, all of us, Virgin aside - do not have FTTP in the UK).

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