ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
A few weeks ago, I stumbled onto an old B&O brochure which led to a very impulsive decision that I should get a Beomaster of some sort and some nice Beovox speakers to combine with a Raspberry PI running RaspyFi and a cheap USB DAC for so I can stream FLAC.Some scouring of ad sites later, I managed to pick up an entire Beosystem 8000 for the princely sum of 125€. I'm not sure if this was a major bargain, but I'd like to think it is. The system is comprised of:- Beomaster 8000- Beocord 8000- Beovox MS150- Beogram 8000 with MMC 20CL cartridge- SC80 cabinet- Beoterminal- large stack of manuals and brochuresNaturally there are problems and I have some questions. My main interest is getting the Beomaster 8000 and MS150's working, but the idea is to eventually restore everything. That being said, I'm no electronics whizz. My soldering experience is limited to "cruder" jobs like car wiring.I've done quite a bit of reading so far and found lots of good info and service manuals, especially on this forum (I knew absolutely nothing about this stuff), but some posts were over 5 years old, so I'm wondering if there are better/newer solutions. Anyway, the issues I'd like some feedback on:MS150: - foam is bad, I've ordered a new set from Good Hifi. - Caps: since I'm opening them anyway, I might as well replace the crossover caps, apparantly a user here - Dillen - sells these. Would it be worth it to upgrade the caps to some nicer ones like Jantzen or similar?- internal wiring: on the one hand I've read the wiring is rather thin, but apparantly it's high quality with high silver content? Not sure what to do here.- DIN plug: it sits rather awkwardly behind the stand and I'm not sure about the quality of the original DIN cables. Would it be worth it to install a set of ordinary jacks that work with banana plugs, or shouldn't I bother? Beomaster 8000:- one LED segment of the frequency display is bad and being far from a soldering expert, I'd like to avoid replacing the lot. i've read that a single 0603 SMD LED 2v 14mcd is very closely matched to the originals. Would this be the best course of action?- since I'll be opening it anyway, should I go ahead and get a cap kit? Could I get away with replacing certain failureprone caps and resistors and leave the rest? Some look quite accessible, others, not so much.- Yet to be tested after repairing the speakers, but during my brief test at the seller's house, the right channel appeared to be quieter than the left. This might have been a simple balance setting (didn't think to check at the time) but being pessimistic, any ideas what might cause this?Beocord 8000:- Cassette mechanism won't stay down. After pressing in a tape, it pops right back up. No idea why. Other than that, I'm assuming it needs a new rubber belt anyway.Beogram 8000:- Won't turn on. Any ideas where I might start looking? Is there an obvious fuse somewhere to be replaced first?- Doublesided tape holding down the top cover has perished, as well as the very thin foam strip on the cover that sits over the arm. Any idea where I can get a suitable thin strip of replacement foam?Beoterminal:- 9V battery connector is broken. I'll solder in a replacement, other than that I haven't found to many info about known issues with these.Then there's the cosmetic side:- speaker stands, cabinet feet and slide out drawers have some corrosion. I intend to sand them down to bare metal and get the original paintcolour matched at my autobody supply shop (unless someone here happens to have a colour code on hand?)- wood, mainly on the cabinet: everything is in very good condition for its age, nevertheless there are some scuffs and duller areas and wood is not my cup of tea. Is the veneer stained and varnished and will I have to sand this back or is it an oiled finish that I can just use a cleaner on, followed by some steel wool treatment and several coats of oil? I'm not to keen on lots of sanding for fear of sanding through the veneer.- brushed aluminium component parts: need a good clean before assessing further, but I think there is some oxidation in places. Anyone here that has successfully sanded these and replicated the original brushed finish?Anyway, lots of questions and even more to learn, I hope you guys have some patience with me!I'll take some pictures of everything tomorrow in daylight to keep this thread a bit more interesting.
EDIT: added some pictures, a bit on the small side, this forum doesn't seem to like to scale pics or make them clickable
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Welcome to Beoworld and congratulations with your new system.
You'll need to replace all LED segments if you want uniform light intensity - the missing segment is likely a cracked soldering joints or bent circuit board.
Replace all the red Roedenstein capacitors as a minimum; they're trouble makers. I'd recommend to replace the whole lot with 105 degree rated, low-ESR capacitors.
Does the standby LED light in the Beogram? It might be a power supply failure/cold soldering joints.
Never use any abrasive stuff on the aluminium parts. They are anodised and will oxidize in stains if the coating has been stripped, you should not use anything stronger than 99% isopropanol on the surfaces.
Treat the panels with fine sandpaper - go gently with 1000 to 1500 wet and seal with a layer of Danish oil.
Vinyl records, cassettes, open reel, valve amplifiers and film photography.
'Some scouring of ad sites later, I managed to pick up an entire Beosystem 8000 for the princely sum of 125€. I'm not sure if this was a major bargain, but I'd like to think it is.'
It definitely is!! Congratulations on a superb buy - however this is the most complex piece of audio B&O available! All the manuals are on site and you are right in thinking Dillen is your man for parts such as capacitors etc.
Peter
That was a fantastic buy. I think the system cabinet of all things is the real value in what you acquired. I paid slightly more than that for my Beomaster 8000 ALONE, though mine is cosmetically and functionally near perfect (knock on fake wood veneer). I have taken a different approach with my BM8000, and it is one that probably not be popular, but I suspect that movement and jostling things around inside can be detrimental to these units due to the age of the components and ribbon cables etc., so I really am not planning to replace caps or trimmers (rheostats) inside this thing until something actually breaks. Most people who acquire this gear also have it shipped from places far and wide which I believe is also very hard on the 8000 because of its extremely compacted weight. Mine on the other hand I actually traveled to Chicago to pick up and it had never been shipped anywhere (other than from Denmark to the dealer of course). Unlike some of my other B&O gear, I don't feel like I've lost a huge investment if something REALLY goes wrong, so I am just going to enjoy it for whatever it's got to give until I need to do otherwise.
For most people. and especially since you have one definite issue that already needs fixing (your broken LEDs), it's worth replacing things while you're in there.
When I sold my 8000 system, the stand was not wanted!! I think it was probably binned!
Peter: When I sold my 8000 system, the stand was not wanted!! I think it was probably binned!
That's a shame. I find the cabinet beautiful. *I* don't have room for it in my apartment, but I still find it beautiful.
Congratulations, that is a great find especially at that price! You have bought yourself one of the very best systems B&O ever made.
I am using a beolab 8000 system myself at the time minus the MS150's, I have M100's. Restoration was a lot of work but very much worth it and I learned a LOT from it.
Some of my experiences:
BM8000:
- grab Dillen's cap kit unless you want to count every cap in the service manual. Bad caps will cause failures now or later. Plus, sound will improve a lot!
- LED PCB's: my BM8000 had failure of a couple of segments, solved by resoldering the connections between the big display PCB and the smaller PCB with the LED's on them. Worth checking out before replacing the LED's, this is very difficult as drop in replacements do not exist and SMD soldering is hard and the PCB tracks fragile. I think member Dillen refurbishes these PCB's, worth considering letting him do it.
- Resolder connectors between PCB's, bad joints are common and cause weird faults.
MS150's:
- Replace foam
- Use good quality electrolytic (smooth foil) caps. B&O used those. The filter was designed by professional sound engineers for electrolytic caps. Using film caps will sound different but not neccesarily better, they have different ESR and inductance values. The filter was not designed for those values! Plus, you will save a lot of money.
BG8000:
- Replace caps and resolder bad joints. These will cause faults!
Wood:
- Danish oil (e.g. Rustin's) is the stuff you need for this!
Enjoy your great system! I envy you, partly because of those MS150's, partly because I had to find each part seperately! A lot of fuss.
I've added some pictures to my opening post to make my wall of text a bit more interesting.
A bit small due to forum rescaling, but they do show some of the issues like corrosion on the steel (easy fix) and the strange stain on the Beocord aluminium that I suspect to be oxidation.
Anyway, I haven't read any really bad news so far here, apparantly I really did grab a bargain.
Quite the escalation of my regular plans of "some sort of beomaster and a small pair of Beovox" though. I've had a change to put everything in my storage today and everything is even bigger and heavier than I remembered it to be yesterday.
Based on your advice, I will start by contacting Dillen for some cap kits. The LED issue I'll assess after resoldering the connector.
I've decided to start with the speakers. This will take a few weeks, I'm waiting for the arrival of a decent soldering station and still need to receive the foam surrounds and order a cap kit.
So to break up the many questions somewhat, the things I'd still like to know for the first part of the project, the speakers:
- do I change the internal wiring?
- do I install a set of regular, good quality speaker plugs or are the DIN cables more than sufficient in terms of quality?
- is the factory dampening material sufficient or should I use this opportunity to "upgrade"?
Thanks for all the suggestions so far, they've been quite helpful in making this whole project seem somewhat manageable.
Søren Hammer:Replace all the red Roedenstein capacitors as a minimum; they're trouble makers. I'd recommend to replace the whole lot with 105 degree rated, low-ESR capacitors.
I'm assuming Dillen's cap kit will take care of that.
Søren Hammer: Does the standby LED light in the Beogram? It might be a power supply failure/cold soldering joints.
No standby LED. The unit seems to be completely dead.
- do I change the internal wiring? Why would you want to do that? Thicker wire wouldn't hurt but what's already in there will do just fine.
- do I install a set of regular, good quality speaker plugs or are the DIN cables more than sufficient in terms of quality? The DINS will be fine. Never gave me any problems, plus easy plugging/unplugging!
- is the factory dampening material sufficient or should I use this opportunity to "upgrade"? What's in there already does what it's supposed to do.
PS: Just look at those pics! That looks fantastic already. You, sir, are a lucky man!
Premiumverum:- do I change the internal wiring? Why would you want to do that? Thicker wire wouldn't hurt but what's already in there will do just fine.
Read some conflicting reports about the quality, some claim the wiring could really do with an upgrade, others say while it's thin, it's very high quality. I myself have no idea, all I know is, I'm going to have to open them anyway.
Premiumverum: - do I install a set of regular, good quality speaker plugs or are the DIN cables more than sufficient in terms of quality? The DINS will be fine. Never gave me any problems, plus easy plugging/unplugging!
Yes, they seem OK, on the other hand I read the MS150.2's were updated with regular jacks instead of the DIN plug, made me wonder why.
Premiumverum: - is the factory dampening material sufficient or should I use this opportunity to "upgrade"? What's in there already does what it's supposed to do.
That's one mess I won't have to bother with then unless it's perishing from age.
Premiumverum: PS: Just look at those pics! That looks fantastic already. You, sir, are a lucky man!
I can't disagree with that, certainly considering the price paid. To be honest, after internal repairs, a good clean and repainting of the steel parts would be sufficient to end up with a very tidy system. Unfortunately I'm one of those annoying perfectionists.
Peter:When I sold my 8000 system, the stand was not wanted!! I think it was probably binned! Peter
NOOOO! That's not what I wanted to read - especially as my search for a cabinet for my own 8000 system has turned up precisely nothing so far!
Some of you seem to really want one of these cabinets. I knew it was by far the rarest part of the system, but before seeing one in the flesh, I wasn't a fan. Honestly, even now that I've seen it and was pleasantly surprised by the quality and overall look, I like the system cabinets with a flat top better.
The 8000 components integrate beautifully in the top shelf, but at the same time, it seems like a shame to hide their sides and back, they were designed to look nice from all angles after all.
For now, my plan was to keep the cabinet in storage since it's part of the complete system, I might end up selling it after using the system for a while if I determine I won't ever be using it, but that wouldn't do you guys much good since I'm located in Belgium.
Small general update to stay somewhat on topic: a nice soldering station and new foam rings are on the way, along with Dillen's cap kits for the Beomaster, MS150's and Beocord.
Wonderful system! Good luck with your restoration.
For what it's worth, I own Beovox M70, S45-2, S40 and CX50. On each pair I replaced the DIN plug with a new terminal cup with posts that accept banana plugs. This particular cup fits perfectly after a 2.75" diameter hole is cut, and in the States you can get a circular hole drill in that size.
I have and have not replaced the internal wiring. I have used both electrolytic caps from Dillen and much more expensive Solen caps. In all cases excellent results were obtained.
Now ask if you should shim your voice coils when you do your refoaming.
Tim Jarman summed up the SC nicely when he said it made the HiFi from the future (8000 system) look like a product of the past (a radiogram).
Get a nice mid-century sideboard and stick all the components in a line on the top!
Rich:For what it's worth, I own Beovox M70, S45-2, S40 and CX50. On each pair I replaced the DIN plug with a new terminal cup with posts that accept banana plugs. This particular cup fits perfectly after a 2.75" diameter hole is cut, and in the States you can get a circular hole drill in that size.
If I do decide to install regular terminals, i'll probably just drill two holes for them, a bit less definitive.
Rich: Now ask if you should shim your voice coils when you do your refoaming.
I've read way too many posts already on this subject. This is one debate I'm wisely steering clear of.
j0hnbarker: Tim Jarman summed up the SC nicely when he said it made the HiFi from the future (8000 system) look like a product of the past (a radiogram).
That's a very good way of putting it.
j0hnbarker: Get a nice mid-century sideboard and stick all the components in a line on the top!
You read my mind. Now there's just the small matter of locating a Pastoe Japanese Series sideboard by Cees Braakman for an affordable price:
Build your own stand. That's what I always do.
j0hnbarker:Tim Jarman summed up the SC nicely when he said it made the HiFi from the future (8000 system) look like a product of the past (a radiogram). Get a nice mid-century sideboard and stick all the components in a line on the top!
FRQ: it seems like a shame to hide their sides and back, they were designed to look nice from all angles after all.
it seems like a shame to hide their sides and back, they were designed to look nice from all angles after all.
Ick no, the amplifier section on the back is one of my less favorite aspects of the BM8000. It looks like some sort of high voltage science experiment appended to the back of a beautiful machine. This design eventually matured beautifully in the BC9xxx series (and of course they had TINY amplifiers which allowed for it) but there's nothing much to see back there, especially from the absolute back view, in my opinion.
Cleviebaby:Or put it on Dieter Rams's 606 shelving system - a 60 year old design that has still to be improved upon - and arguably never will.
Vitsoe is great, good thing Rams' idea for it was to add to it during your lifetime as your need for space increases, makes it easier to forget how much you ended up spending to cover an entire wall with the stuff!
Playdrv4me:Ick no, the amplifier section on the back is one of my less favorite aspects of the BM8000. It looks like some sort of high voltage science experiment appended to the back of a beautiful machine.
Well sure, but relatively speaking even 30 years later it's a brilliant example of subtle cooling and cable management. Want to see a science experiment, take a look at the rear panel of almost any modern amp. God forbid it's 7.1, no displaying that thing on top of your living room credenza
FRQ: Cleviebaby:Or put it on Dieter Rams's 606 shelving system - a 60 year old design that has still to be improved upon - and arguably never will. Vitsoe is great, good thing Rams' idea for it was to add to it during your lifetime as your need for space increases, makes it easier to forget how much you ended up spending to cover an entire wall with the stuff! Playdrv4me:Ick no, the amplifier section on the back is one of my less favorite aspects of the BM8000. It looks like some sort of high voltage science experiment appended to the back of a beautiful machine. Well sure, but relatively speaking even 30 years later it's a brilliant example of subtle cooling and cable management. Want to see a science experiment, take a look at the rear panel of almost any modern amp. God forbid it's 7.1, no displaying that thing on top of your living room credenza
Now see, you are 100 percent correct. To the average person that is disgusting to look at. But I'm a geek so I see a lot of order and beauty there, plus let's be honest that part will be well hidden in an A/V cabinet or stand. The back of the 8000 viewing it from the top to me looks like it would electrocute you if you touched it, like some kind of bug zapper lol.
FRQ: j0hnbarker: Tim Jarman summed up the SC nicely when he said it made the HiFi from the future (8000 system) look like a product of the past (a radiogram). That's a very good way of putting it. j0hnbarker: Get a nice mid-century sideboard and stick all the components in a line on the top! You read my mind. Now there's just the small matter of locating a Pastoe Japanese Series sideboard by Cees Braakman for an affordable price:
I really like that sideboard. Here's my own setup:
and from another angle as the forum software seems to have chopped off half the image:
j0hnbarker, even your cats are in stereo.
Anyway, small irrelevant update: received Dillen's cap kits today and picked up a free pair of S80's that are too beat up to restore, but they do provide me with a pair of spare 8" woofers, drivers and tweeters for my MS150's if I'm not mistaken (anyone care to confirm?). The severely damaged boxes will be a nice testbed for some refinishing techniques before tackling the MS150's.
At some point this thread will probably become better suited to The Workbench or Vintage Products, but I had so many different questions to start with, I hope the mods don't mind.
The Beovox S80 woofers are quite different from the MS150 ones.The tweeter likewise.The midrange, however, IS shared.
Martin
Thanks for the heads up Martin. I should have known I wouldn't be that lucky. Oh well, some spares are still better than none.
While patiently waiting for my new soldering station and glue gun, I'm afraid the downward spiral of vintage B&O fascination continues.
I would like to be able to control the BM8000 with a more modern remote. The research I've done was confusing to say the least and suggests I need the following:
Master control link 82 type 2041, along with an IR transceiver. Additionaly for the 8000 I found the following:
Master Control Link could not be connected to BeoMaster 8000 and 6000 directly because there was no connection for Datalink and supply voltage to the system through extra pins in the speaker sockets. Consequently, it had to be supplemented with an extra box, Type 1006/1007 (MCL-BeoLab kit), which was supplied with special mounting instructions.
I might have found a set, but it is in use with a BM6000, which according to the info on this site, should be an MCL30. However on the archived forums I read something about the MCL82 being used with a BM6000 after a small modification and according to the seller, the box is marked MCL82. Is it possible to use this complete set without modification on my 8000? If not, what needs changing?
Do I even need the MCL82 for local control only or can I just buy a 1006/1007 MCL Beolab kit and IR transceiver?
The complete setup is meant to give you the possibility to control the BM8000 with a Beolink 1000 remote. Are there any other remotes I would be able to use? A period correct Master Control Panel would be nice, but I'm assuming the MCL82 is not set up for two way communication with a BM8000.
If you want to use a beolink 1000 with BM8000 you need the IR Code Converter 8089017, not the boxes you mention, those are for creating links throughout the house for listening to music in other rooms.
PS: I have one but it is not that awesome, it works fine but BL1000 has so many buttons you will never use on a beolab 8000 system...the original remote works much more natural with the system.
Maybe an old 'audio terminal' (rare audio only BL1000 type remote) would be nice with it, it doesn't have all the useless TV/sattelite/etc buttons.
It took me two years to find a Beolab Terminal! I finally found a mint one in a local ad for 30 euros.
Jacques
Premiumverum: PS: I have one but it is not that awesome, it works fine but BL1000 has so many buttons you will never use on a beolab 8000 system...the original remote works much more natural with the system. Maybe an old 'audio terminal' (rare audio only BL1000 type remote) would be nice with it, it doesn't have all the useless TV/sattelite/etc buttons.
From what I understand, 8089017 IR Converter Box is one of the boxes present in the set, so that should be OK.
My confusion came mainly from the fact that I did not know if this converter box could be plugged in to the BM8000 directly or if it needed an MCL82 as some sort of bridging device containing the needed inputs.
Do you happen to know if the converter box needs internal modification depending on the Beomaster it's used with (6000 or 8000)? That's the only missing piece of information at this point.
chartz:It took me two years to find a Beolab Terminal! I finally found a mint one in a local ad for 30 euros.
I don't even know if mine is working at this point, but I'm pretty sure it will, just needs a new 9V connector soldered in. Either way, I'm not expecting great things from a Beolink 1000, it's just fun to play around with this sort of weird eighties technology.
For instance, if the converter box works with a Beolink 1000, would that mean I can also use a Beolink 7000? That would be a nice excuse to get one of those.
FRQ: For instance, if the converter box works with a Beolink 1000, would that mean I can also use a Beolink 7000? That would be a nice excuse to get one of those.
It will work. But with limitations. BL7000 was specially designed for two way control.
So, it has more functions then even a BL1000 AV terminal would have, which you don't use or need. Removing and then adding again the used devices will tell the BL7000 to work only in a 1-way setup.
Beobuddy:It will work. But with limitations. BL7000 was specially designed for two way control. So, it has more functions then even a BL1000 AV terminal would have, which you don't use or need. Removing and then adding again the used devices will tell the BL7000 to work only in a 1-way setup.
I just had the following thought: older B&O devices (let's say pre 1990) seem to use a non standard IR frequency spectrum, which means they're not supported by universal remote solutions like a Logitech Harmony.
Do the Beolink 1000 and later remotes use a regular frequency range? I admit using a Beolink 1000 or 7000 with a BM8000 is a rather pointless exercise from a functionality standpoint, but Logitech Harmony control would be a really nice feature to have, especially with one of their IR-to-RF solutions.
BL1000 or any remote newer than the BL1000, use the same commandprotocol and frequency's. BL5000 or BL7000 need to be set in 1 way control.
I once did have (or will be laying somewhere in a drawer) a Logitech remote (a cheap version) for experimenting, which even supported the B&O commands.
Beobuddy:I once did have (or will be laying somewhere in a drawer) a Logitech remote (a cheap version) for experimenting, which even supported the B&O commands.
See, now things just got interesting! As a main source of music on the BM8000, I intend to use a Raspberry PI running RaspyFi coupled to a USB DAC. Combined with something like a Logitech Link, that would give me full control of the BM8000 and all music streaming to it from where ever I want using an Android tablet or my phone.
FRQ: Do the Beolink 1000 and later remotes use a regular frequency range? I admit using a Beolink 1000 or 7000 with a BM8000 is a rather pointless exercise from a functionality standpoint, but Logitech Harmony control would be a really nice feature to have, especially with one of their IR-to-RF solutions.
BL1000 and later remotes use a modulation frequency of 455 kHz, whereas most other brands use a modulation frequency of about 38 kHz or there abouts.
/ Johan
I bagged a Beolab Terminal about 4 months ago from fellow member Leslie. I had been looking for one for about 5 years, and had instead been using a Terminal 3000 from a Beomaster 3000.
To be honest, I have used the Beolab Terminal about twice since I got it. Yes, it's great to have the 'proper' remote and it does have some extra functionality, but I always prefer wandering over and using the manual controls. My living room is quite big, but the main input is a CDX so I have no remote option for that anyway. There's also something quite nice about spinning the heavy volume wheel that is lost with a remote.
I suppose the situation will be different if you intend to stream music into your BM8000. I prefer the old fashioned tapes/vinyl/CD approach, but each to their own :)
Can someone tell me if this remote will work the BM8000? I thought someone mentioned here before that these generation remotes were *NOT* intercompatible so I'm surprised to hear that a Beomaster 3000 remote works on the 8000. I need a remote for mine but I refuse to pay the idiotic prices people are asking for them on Ebay. For about two months there was a few BM8000 Terminal remotes that if you can believe went for as little as *35.00* and the cheapest one was actually in the original box! Now a recent auction went for 200.00 and some other guy is asking 150.00. Ridiculous as I only paid 300.00 for the silly thing to begin with! So this was posted recently (and don't anyone here steal it from me)... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bang-Olufsen-Beocenter-Control-Module-System-Remote-/221232270065?pt=US_Remote_Controls&hash=item3382788af1
I don't really care about the filter controls or anything but volume to be honest. I plan to only have one source hooked up to the BM8000 anyway. Tuner preset control would be nice but not mandatory.
Now, as for the Logitech thing... Yes the Harmony 300i I have *DOES* operate the BL1000 frequencies (same as Beo4, 5000, 7000 etc) however with some quirks. In particular with volume it jumps the volume about 6 or 7 steps in either direction instead of one step (which on the 9000 for example is +2 value from say 36 to 38 for example... the Harmony will bump it to about 42 if you don't move it or cover it quickly) minor annoyance but it works. There IS an entry on the MyHarmony software for BeoMaster 8000 but it does NOT work. Not sure who put that it in there.
As for the 7000, I was not aware that there was a way to make it work in one way mode at all. I can tell you that using it with one way equipment is an exercise in utter frustration as each time you move sources or do other things you have to wait for "NO CONTACT" to show up on the display and then proceed with whatever you were doing. If there's a way to turn off two way mode altogether it would make it interesting for use with 1 way devices like the BS9000, but rather pointless.