ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hey everyone.
I have an opportunity to obtain a pair of Penta 3s 6633 complete with their original boxes and probably 50-100 hours of total use for 1000.00 US. I had never even considered a pair of Pentas but these just happen to be in town and with them being basically like new, I have to admit I am tempted. The seller is selling them for his Mother and so I don't think they're actually set up for listening, thus my curiosity as to what the opinions are on these still after all these years. As you may remember, the clinical sound of the Lab 1s to me, while very precise and flat, lacked real flare in my opinion and just wasn't to my taste. What I'm hoping based on some what I've seen is that the Pentas are not too far in the OTHER direction and sound like they have socks over them. Even the "bass enhanced" BL8000 is a little clinical unless the Loudness circuit is active on the master device (at which point they are very very nice), but the Pentas are just such a cool speaker with the built in display and all, I could be convinced to get rid of some other piece of gear and get the Pentas instead.
What I basically want to do is have a nice pair of speakers to go with each of my B&O main systems... 8000s of course go with the 9000 (or its eventual replacement which is a BS5E if I could ever find one), the JBLs go with the BM8000 and the Pentas would go with either my 7000 system or the BC9500 whenever I can get it set up. I had originally considered just another pair of BL8000s, but why not mix it up a bit if the Pentas cost the same or less.
Opinions appreciated.
It's been so very long since I've heard the Pentas I can't really recall enough to compare them to the 8000s, which I own a pair of the early ones. Others will undoubtedly be able to give you sonic opinions, but from what I can tell it's highly likely the midrange drivers will need to be refoamed regardless of how much they were used. And perhaps the caps in the crossovers replaced. The driver foam surrounds deteriorate due age, and as it turned out ozone and the presence of a particular type of fungus that seemed to attack them, which is no longer an issue on new foams but unfortunately were back then.
If you're up for the potential repairs, I'd jump on it, I've always wanted a pair myself for the same reasons, cool speakers, neat display, etc.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff: It's been so very long since I've heard the Pentas I can't really recall enough to compare them to the 8000s, which I own a pair of the early ones. Others will undoubtedly be able to give you sonic opinions, but from what I can tell it's highly likely the midrange drivers will need to be refoamed regardless of how much they were used. And perhaps the caps in the crossovers replaced. The driver foam surrounds deteriorate due age, and as it turned out ozone and the presence of a particular type of fungus that seemed to attack them, which is no longer an issue on new foams but unfortunately were back then. If you're up for the potential repairs, I'd jump on it, I've always wanted a pair myself for the same reasons, cool speakers, neat display, etc.
I've heard about the unfortunate problem with the foam deterioration. At least back in the threads from 2007/'08 it was reported at that time that those midrange drivers that rotted were still available from B&o as replacement parts. I'm going to ask the seller to send me photos of the midrange drivers in any case before I make the trip. These would be from about 1998 or '99 so hopefully at the least the caps are still good.
I just purchased some B&O items from a woman who was also selling a pair of Penta III's. On my limited budget, I decided to purchase her BeoLab 8000's and did not take the Penta's. I did, however, remove the frets (the only way... by pulling out sideways on the cloth) and saw my very first set of Pentas with beautifully intact foam surrounds. I touched them gently and they seemed firm but I hesitated to press too hard for fear of puncture.
I graded the drivers for her as in great condition should prospective buyers ask. I have 2 pair of Penta I's here that need full restorations and the foam is totally broken down. So, based on my experience, there is a good chance that the Penta III's will not require new surrounds.
As far as sourcing new drivers from B&O, I believe that they are no longer available. They were available up until two or so years ago for about $60.00 per driver. I called in last year to the B&O store at Tyson's Corner and also to Atlantic systems and was advised that one could exchange your rotted drivers for refurbished ones for over 120.00 each, net. Tyson's actually quoted me $400.00 each but had no knowledge of the exchange end of things which Paul at Atlantic clarified.
I have found a "new" 3" driver made by Visaton - Model FRS8-4 - which is an unusual and required 4 ohm Penta spec at Parts Express for around $10.00. The link is here: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=292-522.
I have been considering ordering one to see if it can be adapted to fit the Penta. This would require the trimming of the sheet metal flange ears and the magnet would have to be equal to or smaller in diameter to fit in the Penta Mount panel holes. I know that some on here have objected to any consideration of using a non B&O midrange driver and only espouse re-foaming. But the original B&O are just good ole paper cone drivers and I feel that these Visaton's could be a viable solution to a persistent Penta problem. For all we know, they could actually improve the somewhat weak midrange response of the Penta. Should anyone try these, please let us know how it works out.
As far as the $1,000.00 asking price, seeing as they are Penta III's, with original boxes, are low use and assuming that there are no dents in the fragile stainless skins, I feel that this is a fair price and one that I would willingly pay (if I had the free cash right now lol). Just my opinion though.
Michael
I have a pair of Penta III speakers and BeoLab 8000s. The Pentas sound better by far. If you're used to the shrill sound of 8000s, you may have to bump up your treble response of the Pentas by a notch.The only B&O speaker that beats the sound of Penta III is the BeoLab 5, of course, and you can't beat the $1000 price versus $20,000!
BeoLab 5, BeoVision 7-55 MK2, BeoSound 5 Encore, BeoSound 9000, BeoLab Penta III, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoLab 2, BeoLab 7-6, BeoSound 8, BeoTime (analog clock), Beo 4 remote.
I use Pentas as my main speakers - they are best when you sit down as the tweeters are then at ear level. Typical old B&O sound - warm and friendly. The top end is not as bright as the proper active range and there is a bass hump at about 120Hz which disguises that they don't go down as low as, say, MS150s, but they are very pleasant to listen to. $1000 is probably top end these days but, in my view, worth it.
Peter
Michael Sean: So, based on my experience, there is a good chance that the Penta III's will not require new surrounds.
So, based on my experience, there is a good chance that the Penta III's will not require new surrounds.
My Penta III's from 1994 had foamrot. I changed them some years ago while the drivers were available.
Penta III's are sold with 2 different type of mids. The first version with a bit "yellow/green" conus will have foamrot. The newer version with the grey coloured conus didn't have foamrot till today experiences. Time will tell.
Perfect fitted surrounds for the mids will be available in the near future
Playdrv4me: What I'm hoping based on some what I've seen is that the Pentas are not too far in the OTHER direction and sound like they have socks over them.
What I'm hoping based on some what I've seen is that the Pentas are not too far in the OTHER direction and sound like they have socks over them.
With some modification and respect to the original electric schematics/diagram these socks can be removed. Confirmed by several happy (upgraded) Penta owners
These socks has been there since the release of the penta's ( I was at several introductions of the penta at that time and aware of it), but as already mentioned, can be removed.
Interesting on the different midrange drivers of the Penta III's..... The one's that I just looked at were gray colored for sure. She was asking $1,200.00 US for those so I opted for the BL 8000's at $900.00.
However, hearing people's high praise on here for the Penta III's over the BeoLab 8000's makes me wonder that I may have chosen the wrong speakers to take home. My primary speakers up until this recent purchase of the 8000's are the BeoLab 3's. I've been running a side by side comparison since I brought the 8000's home and the BL 3 is definitely edging out the BL 8000's. Yes, very imposing midrange on the 8000's vs the 3's in my opinion. A story for another thread though.....
"Perfect fitted surrounds for the mids will be available in the near future"
Beobuddy, can you elaborate on the expected availability of proper fitting surrounds for the Pentas? I did a comparison on published sizes of Penta midrange foam surrounds a while back from three known suppliers (I have a pair of Penta I's but have not been able to sample them due the fact that the amps and drivers require restoration). It verified, at least on paper, what some have said on here about available Penta surrounds not fitting as well as they should.
I found that the surrounds offered by USA based Simply Speakers were the closest but also the most costly at $26.00 for a pair which comes out to $104.00 for the set of eight. I telephoned the owner and asked him if he would consider offering a fixed priced set of eight as he does for the Bose 901's (nine per set) and he said he wasn't interested as he doesn't sell very many surrounds for the Penta. My thoughts were that if he offered an 8 piece set for a reduced price that he could see his sales skyrocket based on the obvious demand for new surrounds for Penta speakers. My thoughts only though as he sounded pretty uninterested in the idea at all.
It will take some time.
At the moment I have new made samples which needs a little tweaking/modifying (details will follow later). Bit premature, but just to inform that there is progress.
I agree that the available surrounds from several suppliers doesn't satisfy at the moment. That triggered the making of...
Thank you Beobuddy!
Great to hear that we may soon have available a proper fitting foam surround for the Penta midrange drivers!
I'll be first in line to purchase a set when you bring this project to fruition.
If you have time and passion for restoration/upgrading, then you can go ahead with the Pentas.
They are my main speaker in my audio room, having Lab 3 and 8000s in other rooms, and the only thing that sounds limited compared to the new BeoLabs is the treble , that lacks some presence. This, and other things, can be easily overcome .
I did some serious restoration on mine, reconing the midrange drivers with rubber surrounds, soldering the internal wires with silver , replacing all caps, renovating the frets with new fabric, reversing the mid-treble enclosure on one of them to have proper symmetry, and the most recent upgrade was to pair them with a DSP that works like BeoLab 5's ABC, meaning the bass response is equalized to compensate for room acoustics.
I'm happy to tell you that the 100/120 Hz issue that Peter refered to is now gone, and that the Pentas, rated at 40 Hz at -8dB , are now producing 30 Hz at -6 dB without any problem!
I also saw the Visaton midrange replacements on another british website recently, but never tried them.
Christophe :I'm happy to tell you that the 100/120 Hz issue that Peter refered to is now gone, and that the Pentas, rated at 40 Hz at -8dB , are now producing 30 Hz at -6 dB without any problem
Interesting, what DSP are you using?
//Bo.A long list...
Beobuddy: Michael Sean: So, based on my experience, there is a good chance that the Penta III's will not require new surrounds. My Penta III's from 1994 had foamrot. I changed them some years ago while the drivers were available. Penta III's are sold with 2 different type of mids. The first version with a bit "yellow/green" conus will have foamrot. The newer version with the grey coloured conus didn't have foamrot till today experiences. Time will tell. Perfect fitted surrounds for the mids will be available in the near future
Anyway to tell when the changeover was made? These are 128xxxxx serial which puts them around late 1997. Haven't gotten a photo yet so just curious.
Well. Interesting turn of events with this today.
Long and short of it is I went to look at the Pentas and ended up coming home with the damned Pentas AND a BS9000 Mk. I (I seem to attract those things like bees to honey, I don't get it. Yet I can't find a nice BS5E used to save my life!) for 1600.00, along with all the original packaging, the Mk I floorstand and a Beo4. It's not all a rosy picture though as the carriage on the BS9000 was having trouble moving when I plugged it in at the seller's house. Played a CD just fine, but really struggled to move to any position and it was NOT giving a "cleaning required" error. I really have no idea what I'm going to do with that 9k even if I get it working. I don't know what value they have being completely obsolete and impossible to repair. Still, I figured what the heck for an extra 600 bucks. Especially since the stand is probably worth 2 or 300 on its own and I already have a Mk 2 stand I could also sell.
Anyway, I digress. The pentas for all intents and purposes look brand new. He's been shuffling them around back and forth in his basement for the last year and a half or so so some things were not perfect, like the frets on one weren't clipping in very well and were loose (making the task of investigating the mid drivers on that one easy of course) although the frets fabric is fine. As best as I could tell all of the midrange drivers are in-tact. The surrounds on those midranges look grey to me, though there is a tinge of greenish color to that grey. They are not yellow/green by any stretch. They also didn't feel tacky. Now I just need to get them plugged in and see what surprises I find. These things in their boxes are even more of a pain to move around than the BL1s WITHOUT!.
Have them up and running now (sans displays, using PL cables I had connected to the 8000s), very balanced sounding speakers, but haven't had a chance to tweak yet. As of this moment they're on par with the 8000s so far. STRIKE THAT: with the Loudness control turned ON (which was also on with the 8000s but somehow got turned off) there is easily more bass extension here that the 8000s simply don't have. The highs are not as bad as I was worried they would be either (and one could argue that it's more "fair" to use the Loudness control with the Pentas since they have no ABL of their own which the later active 'Labs do). There's no contest with the BL1s here. The BL1 should never have been considered a replacement for this speaker in anything but utter beauty.
With much consternation I got the four outermost clips on the one loose fret to clip in. Nothing looks broken so I'm assuming it just takes patience and care to get ALL the clips to attach.
Nevertheless, I looked the speakers over and they're definitely in "new old stock" type condition. Meaning you can tell they haven't been knocked around over the years, but I suppose due to being in a basement and being removed for people to have a look or who knows what the metal parts on the cases definitely need to be polished up. They're not scratched, just fingerprints and such that over time have dulled the finish. So what is recommended to polish the metal? A couple of photos attached of the speakers in general and one not so good photo of the dulled finish...
Guess I have to do these picture postings one at a time...
I think you have made a really nice purchase!
Probably you have the newer mk3 version. As I can see the "ribbed" tweeter and the greyish look of the conus.
If you could make a picture from the display while working, it will probably confirm this. The mk3 version with the green display were released with 2 different types. Not easy to notice, but side by side you can.
But the downside is the used parts for the filters in the newer mk3 version. Small blue caps are used and these have to be changed at least. B&O made ihmo a mistake to use these low cost parts for the filters.
Thank you for the photos!
They look great!
As far polish, I used 3M Stainless Steel Cleaner and Polish on my Penta 1's. (I got them cleaned, I've just never gotten them running lol). It works great in that it cleaned years of grunge (especially on the top plate) and is completely non-abrasive. And it's made by 3M Brand who, in my opinion, makes the best of whatever they produce.
Also, I always use high quality microfiber cloths when cleaning any of my B&O items. Especially good when first received to remove the often years of grime. Those little fibers dig right in but are very soft on the goods.
Beobuddy: I think you have made a really nice purchase! Probably you have the newer mk3 version. As I can see the "ribbed" tweeter and the greyish look of the conus. If you could make a picture from the display while working, it will probably confirm this. The mk3 version with the green display were released with 2 different types. Not easy to notice, but side by side you can. But the downside is the used parts for the filters in the newer mk3 version. Small blue caps are used and these have to be changed at least. B&O made ihmo a mistake to use these low cost parts for the filters.
Thanks BeoBuddy.
I am a display geek so I shined a flashlight inside the display module and I can tell you that these have the Vacuum Fluorescent multi-segment display. I noticed that some Mark III Pentas in photos look like they have LCD displays and these are not LCD. They are VF like the BeoLink 7000 and BS9000 for example, but green instead of red. I'll hook them up and get a picture shortly.
Michael, thanks for the advice on the polish. I will track some down and give it a shot.
I have a feeling I'm going to need to track down a Beolab 200 amp for one of them soon. I noticed that after I shut off the BS9000 and the lights went red on one of the Pentas, that I kept hearing a little "click click" for about 2 or 3 minutes afterward every so often. I guess the relay is getting old? Works fine, just clicks a little after going into standby.
Here's a pic of the display. Seller included a single long PL cable which is the right type for Pentas so at least I can test. On the other hand, I am not entirely sure I want the display on both of them on, I think it's a little overkill and redundant lol. Maybe it's just me.
In reply to BO from Sweden, I paired my Pentas with an AntiMode 2.0 Dual Core from DSPeaker.
So Beobuddy, does that look like the newer display or the older one?
Nice pair of Pentas
You are setting the bench mark for lugging big speakers and bs9000's. ;-)
Interested to hear how you find them against all your previous ones.
Playdrv4me: So Beobuddy, does that look like the newer display or the older one?
I have taken some pictures. Will post them soon.
At the first look it looks like the first mk3 version. But the differences are only visible by comparing them side by side and with a picture taken in front of the display.
valve1: Nice pair of Pentas You are setting the bench mark for lugging big speakers and bs9000's. ;-) Interested to hear how you find them against all your previous ones.
And my back is about to reach its limit! ;)
I swear those BS9000s find me at every turn. That was a tremendously successful product for B&O.
Just wanted to add to this thread that I looked around town for the 3M product Michael recommended and couldn't find it, and didn't really want to wait. So I strolled on over to Ace hardware (which is usually like a Swiss army knife of cleaning products) and found these...
They worked like a charm and literally just erased the years of oxidation and fingerprints on all the steel panels. At first I made the mistake of following up the wipes with a microfiber cloth, but apparently you're supposed to wipe in one direction and let it dry on its own. These things just look amazing now. Mind you, they're still rather "homely" by Bang and Olufsen standards, but at least their homeliness shines like new now!
Also, I haven't heard the clicking from one of the Pentas that I mentioned earlier in this thread upon going to standby anymore. It might still be doing it and I just haven't noticed, but I sure don't hear it anymore. After having seen some of the literally exploded capacitors in some of the Beolab 200s I'm sure that the caps have likely done a little expansion already which may be the click I was hearing, or it could also have been a relay. Who knows.
So to update this never ending thread... Tonight I decided to disassemble/take out the midrange speaker panel. I discovered that the midrange drivers are made by Nokia and not the older ITT version. However apparently this isn't of much importance as I found other threads where the Nokia foams had deteriorated. Not only that, I also found a thread from 2009 where someone with 1993 Pentas with consistent use still had brand-new looking foams in 2009 and they weren't even tacky around the foam. So I guess this is better left as one of those "don't think about it or it will drive you nuts" things. I did pinch the foam on all four drivers on that side and they all seemed fine.
Another advantage about these tiny drivers and the way they are attached to the surrounding case is that you can pull the whole thing off and send it out for re-foaming to someone with actual experience (i.e. NOT me nor do I want to try it with paper cones, re-glueing the BC9500 is enough for me) with relative ease.
I also noticed that the Pentas can be used in passive mode, so I guess if the Beolab 200 ever craps out on either one of them, I can basically run them with my Beomaster 8000 or any other high current amplifier, especially since these didn't have any ABL circuitry anyway. It'll be interesting to see how these fair over time. Especially since they're not THAT old to begin with.
*SIGH*... Now to chase down a pair of stands for my Beovox RL6000 pair...
As promised.
I just finished overhauling a set of MK3's penta's and set them side by side with mine.
the newer version has a bit smaller diaplay and more greenish.
At night it gives following difference.
The distances from the camera to the penta's are the same.
Penta's by night:
Beobuddy: At night it gives following difference. The distances from the camera to the penta's are the same. Penta's by night:
Thanks Beobuddy,
I looked at these photos for the better part of 10 minutes and the photo of the Penta I had taken a few weeks ago (since my Pentas are now in another state at a family member's place) and determined that I have the Mark 2 version. It took me a long while to find a point that I could compare between all three photos since the sources and volumes are different in all of them so it was hard to compare the characters directly. However the one thing that IS the same on all of them is the spacing between the characters, and the spaces on mine are definitely not as close (if you look at the "34" especially) as the spaces on the Mark 1 display. Mark 1 also definitely looks "fatter" than the ones on mine. I think ultimately it was my iPhone camera that made them look a lighter green.
Very cool info. Thanks for the pics!
That's clever found!
Indeed there is a distance between the characters, I didn't notice it until you mentioned.
Don't mix up the mark types, mark 1 was there from the beginning in 1986, mark 2 was around1990? finally the mark 3 started from 1993/1994. In the last period there were different mark 3's, as shown.
The second type mark 3 had also a different type of tweeter. Some changed them, but the tweeter can be recognized by the outer ring. The former tweeter had a smooth done without the ring.
Beobuddy: That's clever found! Indeed there is a distance between the characters, I didn't notice it until you mentioned. Don't mix up the mark types, mark 1 was there from the beginning in 1986, mark 2 was around1990? finally the mark 3 started from 1993/1994. In the last period there were different mark 3's, as shown. The second type mark 3 had also a different type of tweeter. Some changed them, but the tweeter can be recognized by the outer ring. The former tweeter had a smooth done without the ring.
Oh yes, I meant version 1 and version 2 of Penta Mark 3. Sorry for anyone reading this thread later on, didn't mean to confuse.
I think these Pentas are probably my second or third favorite B&O product I have owned, and especially because back in my earlier Beovirus days I thought for sure I would NEVER like them based on the design alone. Well, I was proven wrong.
It just makes me nervous thinking that at some point in the next few years I know the caps are going to start to need replacement (primarily in the amps), and I guess we will see how those midrange drivers hold up. Cap replacement and re-foaming is probably beyond my level of expertise and I wouldn't want to mess them up, so I will just have to find someone I can take them to for repairs when that time comes.
Hello,
one question:
I have a pair of Penta Mk3. They have already the textile tweeter but they don't have the cooper binding. The binding is made of polished steel.
Is this still the original or was it a modification by a former owner of the Pentas?
Thank you very much for your help.
Regards Chris