Beolab 5 low Frequency Effects

Hi everybody,

Since a couple of weeks I am the happy owner of beolab 5's which I have installed in my living room.

As I use Sonos - digitally connected - for streaming music a marriage with my beocenter 2 did not offer a good solution because of the "CD repeat" problem. As an alternative I now use a Music Hall 15.2 DAC with spdif output  which serves as a digital bridge between on the input side a Sonos, Blue Ray player and the usb input from my laptop and on the other side the beolab 5.

This works fine  but I have a question relating to the Low Frequency Effects (LFE) when playing a Blue Ray movie. When I connect the DAC digitally to the beolab 5 beautiful sound with clear dialogues is played but not really any LFE which kick me out of my seat when the subs of BL 5 are activated. However, when I connect the analog outputs from the DAC to my 150 euro Logitech 2.1 speakers system with a fairly powerful little subwoofer I am really kicked out of my seat with almost a heart attack (as it should for that scene in the movie). The Blue ray player outputs 2 channel stereo (PCM I believe).

Could somebody explain what happens and if comparable LFE can be get out of the beolab 5? I wouldn't have thought that a seperate sub would be needed for a comparable movie experience with the beolab 5?

Your comments or feedback are much appreciated!

Thanks

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

Well... It's hard to say because of your setup. 

 

My BL5's are connected to my Beovision 9, and it's the best home theater sound I've heard.

IMHO most subs and surround sound receivers on the market over-emphazise the low end signals, resulting in very blurry sounds, and too much "effect-bass". With the BL5's I get a very balanced sound that is easy to listen to even at higher volumes.  

I agree that too much low bass is not desirable in all situations. But here we are in a movie so I don't understand why the subs of the BL 5 are not activated (or very little) in an action scene while the sub of my silly 2.1 system - based on an analog signal - is really active?

Would a surround preamp which redirects all LFE to the BL 5 solve the solution? I cannot imagine that a BL 2 is needed for movies?

Thanks

Hi

I don't own bl5 but I heard them with a bv 12 65 in a b&o store with the iron man 2 movie.

The LFE effects was impressiv.I had the impression to have 2 beolab 2 in front of me.

I can't explain why you didn't notice these powerfull bass. Surely a problem of configuration.

Ps: if you can't find any solution to your problem, I have place in my home for them ;)

Maybe the rooms little small when you calibrated the lab 5's and not getting full bass? as some people say not enough bass from them. they need a little space.

One way to max the caIibration on the 5's is to calibrate them in a open space like a garden,them move back inside!

Make sure that the player is setup to output 2 channel via Spdif and not 2.1 or 5.1.

And if there is a possibility to set the speaker size make sure that they are setup as large.

And make sure that the LFE (.1) channel is mixed down to the main speakers.

 

Besides that I don't know?

One thing is sure though, you don't need a BL2, as my BL5's eat BL2's for breakfast.

Have you done the calibration of the speakers by holding down the button on the top of the speaker when in standby? You have to do each speaker individually. If you have then like others here I think you setup is not sending the subwoofer channel to the BeoLab5's - they have 2 x 1000w sub bass amplifiers and 2 x 1000w mid bass amplifiers so they should be able to tear the house down!

When I had BL5s set up for movie playback, the bass moved walls, and was such that B&O's country reps, when visiting my listening room, wondered whether the speakers would create structural damage to the building.

So - BL5s can deliver a mighty helping of subwoofer info.

Which means something is wrong with your set-up. Let me suggest a test:

It could be that you have set up your movie processor to send the LFE signal to a separate subwoofer, which makes sense, if you have a small separate subwoofer that responds to the analog signal. Once set up right (with the LFE going to the FRONT SPEAKERS (on most processors) and separate SUBWOOFER OFF, you should be ok.

Does your processor send 5.1 over the SPDIF? Probably not - which means that the multichannel info is left out.

I set my home movie up with analog out from the processor to the front and surround speakers, and reserved SPDIF to the BL5s for two-channel music playback only. When watching 5.1 television or movies, the analog signal was active, and went to the speakers (BL5s front, BL3s side and back).

Since the BL5s autodetect SPDIF and give priority to that, whenever I wanted to listen to two-channel music, the BL5s handled that signal, without my having to switch between analog and SPDIF, other than sending the respective signal(s) to the speakers.

Very likely, your SPDIF doesn't contain multichannel, and is therefore lacking the subwoofer LFE info.

Just connect analog out from your processor to your speakers, and make certain that you have checked off the right boxes for surround set-up.

I can assure you, it's not the speakers, it's the signal. 

Hi guys, thanks a lot for your helpful comments. Just to be clear I currently don't have a multichannel processor. It's a simple Panasonic blue ray player attached to a DAC which outputs a 2 channel signal (analog or digital) to the BL5. So I believe Soundproof could have a point in the sense that the LFE info is not sent through via the digital output. It is a bit strange that low bass is being sent through the analog output..

Regarding calibration, I have done it for both speakers in my living room. It's quite a large room of 45m2 but in the middle there is pillar next to my seat (should not be a problem).

As suggested I will connect the blue ray directly to the bL5 with analog cables to see if the LFE is sent through. I do fear poor audio quality as it was a cheap player. Reading all your remarks on the extraordinary ability of the beolab 5 to play LFE the real solution of my problem is then a multichannel processor. If I am reading you correctly, even with only the BL5 connected to a multichannel processor (no surround, center or sub) sending all LFE info to the BL5 instead of to the sub output should change my movie experience with some real bass! I will see if I cannot get one to test it out!

Thanks a lot for your help!

Check out the setup menu for your BluRay player. It might give you some options for routing the various channels - though if it's a very cheap BD-player, then I doubt it does multichannel SPDIF, and at any rate, I doubt that the internal SPDIF handling in the BL5s decode multichannel SPDIF. I believe they are two-channel paths.

 

I take it when you say "analog out" from your BD, you mean the pre-outs, as in the top row in the image below?

If your BD setup menu allows it, you can just route the SW signal (which contains the LFE) to your front speakers. Usually, you just mark that you don't have a subwoofer, and that LFE should go to the front speakers. FL and FR.

Then connect the pre out FL and FR to the LINE IN of respective BL5s - enjoy.

http://audio-head.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Back-Panel-Full.jpg

 

Soundproof, I wish it had the pre-outs as shown on your example of the Oppo but it hasn't.

The connections are shown here:

http://www.goodgearguide.com.au/review/home_entertainment/panasonic/dmp-bd65/367507

It concerns a simple 'stereo' analog output. I have just connected this with analog cables to the line-ins of the beolab 5 but noticed not any improvement in bass compared to the digital signal. It all remains pretty normal (bass) even at high volume levels.

What I will try now is to find a friend or relative with a DVD or blu-ray player with 5.1 or 7.1 pre-outs in order to try out what you've discribed.

Thanks for the valuable tips.

The Oppo BD players are an excellent option for multi-format playback to BL5s - you can route the signal to a processor or TV, AND run the analog signal to the BL5s. There are also extensive down-mix options for audio from the high-resolution formats to S/PDIF.

But my experience with the BL5s was that I got very good signal handling and resolution using analog outs. I'm enclosing a link to the user manual for the Oppo 103 (the 105 model which has been released is not necessary, but also an option).

With an Oppo, you can play back from BD, SACD, HDCD, internet streaming, etc., etc.

But the big advantage is that you can do your set-up for the speakers in the unit. Since B&O speakers have their own amplifiers, there is no need for a separate processor/amplifier (with an exception for native handling of some protected formats). And the adjustment options in the Oppos are as "fine-grain" as you could desire. Incredible sound - and all the whomp! you may desire from movie playback.

See page 69 for the detailed instructions on how to set your front speakers (BL5s) to LARGE, and the Subwoofer to OFF, plus the timing adjustments. You will then send all audio info to the BL5s, including the LFE, and you will never look back. You can, of course, also attach peripheral surround speakers to the same pre-out connections, and control them (time/volume) in the same manner.

Also, make certain that you don't have Dynamic Range Compression ON (including on your present BD-player)

The Oppos are truly universal players, with extensive streaming options in addition, and the fact that they process various restricted audio information to their analog outs gives you lots of options. And you can still route the highest resolution playback to a separate processor, or a TV that will process correctly for these formats, and then return the appropriate signal to the BL5s (through, for instance, powerlink). Then it's a simple Option reset on the BL5s for third-party source playback, or B&O native.

Good Luck!

http://download.oppodigital.com/BDP103/BDP-103_User_Manual_English_v1.2.pdf

It seems that this player indeed would fit my needs! Since I am sure to stick with B&O there is no need for an A/V receiver. Of course a pre/amp for multichannel processing offers a lot of flexibility for future changes although I have the impression that this player could also do the job. It is amazing that you adjust all output signals in function of your set. That is precisely want I want to do.

Volume control is no problem for the BL 5 but how would you control surround and center speakers? Just out of curiosity, would the DAC in this player be better than the one in the BL5? In that case I maybe could connect sonos for audio to it as well instead of directly to the BL5 - although I must admit that the sound quality is really outstanding now!

Another question relates to the connections. I know that if you use analog cables you should be careful about voltage differences. Also, a triggering of the speakers seems to be needed so that the speakers don't fall asleep during silent moments in a movie. Now I read somewhere in another tread on this forum that you can order modified analog cables with a powerlink socket (and if I am not mistaking attenuating the signal as well). This would be needed to connect a B&O center speaker I believe. But how would you solve the triggering issue - can the player ensure that (surround) speakers don't fall asleep?

Thanks for your great insights!

I can't speak for all versions of the BL5s, but the ones I used in my home theatre, as well as the BL3s I used for surrounds, autodetected the LINE IN signal and remained on for as long as there was something piped to them. The BL3s switched themselves off after a short while if there wasn't a signal, and the BL5s I just switched off manually - though they, too, would switch off automatically if there wasn't a signal. Some components are "noisy," that is, they transmit low noise even if there isn't a signal. That can result in the BL3s not switching off - this is not a problem with the Oppo players.

The Oppo players use the industry standard of 2V RMS OUT from the Pre-Outs, which is also what the LINE IN on the BL5 expects. (Quite a lot of high-end manufacturers of DACs, etc., cheat with this, and have much higher RMS OUT levels, to make people think that their components are better than the ones that sound lower right out of the box. Check this when connecting 3rd party components to BL5s). You will not need an attenuator - and at any rate, it's not necessary to have the volume on the BL5s at max, nor the volume OUT on the Oppo, when you try out the configuration, just to be certain.

The DACs in the Oppos are first class, and also both 2-channel and multi-channel capable - I wouldn't worry about sending the analog signal directly to the BL5s degrading the resolution - though with some protected formats, you will not get the highest resolution from the analog outs, as these formats need to go through the HDMI to a processor, to be fully resolved.

I would go with RCA>RCA instead of RCA>Powerlink.

In my strongly held opinion, one doesn't need a center channel with the BL5s. Conventional speakers usually beam the sound at you, as a cone - the BL5s disperse the sound with the acoustic lenses. I did tests with and without a center speaker, and as I could send the center speaker info to the front speakers, I got a very satisfying center sound image with the BL5s (that's where the dialogue goes) without having to clutter up the area I was watching with a center speaker above or below the screen. 
So I would recommend trying that, before you invest in a center speaker, given that you have the BL5s. (B&O could have made a fortune selling acoustic lenses as a replacement for conventional center speakers, IMO).

ADDING

 At one point, I had a very amusing set of connections to my BL5s:

1. S/PDIF from a sound card connected to a Mac Mini. Used for playback from a NAS where I had all my Redbook and High-Resolution music, as well as movies.

2. Analog RCA>RCA from the Pre-Out of a home theatre processor, to the LINE IN on BL5/BL3.

3. Powerlink from a Beomaster 6500 to the BL5s; and a Beogram CD 6500 and Beocord 6500 connected to that. Now, the Beogram CD 6500 (and 7000), has S/PDIF out, so I ran that to the Coax S/PDIF in of my soundcard. The BL5s autodetect S/PDIF and give that precedence over all other signals. This meant that when I chose CD playback on my Beo4, the Beomaster 6500 would activate the CD-player and the BL5s, but the signal would enter the BL5s as S/PDIF through the soundcard (could also be connected directly to the S/PDIF IN on the BL5s, of course, but I had a variety of digital sources, and needed the sound card as conduit).
However, when I wanted to listen to the radio or the cassette player, the Beomaster would activate that and the BL5s, and as no S/PDIF signal was detected, those sources would play through the speakers. 

The BL5s looked very good with the Beosystem 6500 as source.

 

Hi soundproof and paulander,

That the OPPO103 has 2 HDMI inputs Is also very important, if you want to use it a the 'center' of a setup (with BL's).

It gives you lots of possibilities.

soundproof: I don't quite agree with you on the center speaker subject. It really depends on where you are sitting.

If it is possible to sit right in the 'sweetspot' it might be ok. But if more people are listening together, a center speaker would certainly help with 'surround sound format listening'.

MM

I did lots of testing, Millemissen, when it came to with/without center speaker. Remember that the center speaker information in movies is dialogue - that's it. When we watch movies, our brains "hear" the voices coming from the mouths of the actors, even when they are at the edge of screen, in spite of the fact that the sound comes from the center speaker - our brains still pan the sound about.

It is very rare that dialogue is mapped to the other speakers in a surround setup - and it's easy to test this. Just disconnect your center speaker, and you'll find that your talkies are now movies only.

The BeoLab 5s do an excellent center speaker simulation - quite outstanding, in fact. The only way to really test this, is to not be aware of when you have an actual center speaker ON, or when you have the phantom center effect of summing the front speakers. You'd be amazed.

I also compared with traditional speakers, and there I missed the center speaker. It's the acoustic lenses that do the trick, and B&O could have made that a strong selling point.

Compared to the distraction of having a center speaker above or below the screen, it was an easy choice to make - others may have different opinions, but it is really worth trying this, if you have BL5s, and a source that gives you the ability to reroute the subwoofer/center properly to the front speakers.

 

Center channel refers to an audio channel common to many surround sound formats. It is the channel that is mostly, or fully, dedicated to the reproduction of the dialogue of an audiovisual program. The speaker(s) connected to the center channel are placed in the center of and behind the perforated projection screen, to give the effect that sounds from the center channel are coming from the screen. In many home surround sound units, the center channel is positioned above or below the video screen.^[1]

In the post-production process of filmmaking and video production sound editing, dialogue can be mapped to other speakers when story action and direction require it, such as when the person talking is off-screen, but it is rare that there is vocal content that is completely absent from the center channel.

 

I have scanned the manual of the Oppo and it indeed allows for volume control of the analog (multichannel) signals as such solving the potential problem for the surround speakers. This is great as it is really perfect for my needs: I am sold and will buy it when I will be in the US in September.

As recommended I will use analog rca2rca cables for the connections: in front to the Beolab 5's and for the surround channels to active Beolab Pentas (these are the only other ones I currently have). Maybe at a later stage BL3 (or BL5) could be come into play. So for a start indeed the Beolab 5's will be tested without center speaker or subwoofer going from a traditional 5.1 towards a 4.0 (?) surround system. Hopefully it will turn out to be a crazy, hidden 4.2 system!

For 2 channel music I will continu to use the direct digital inputs of the BL5's bridged via my Music Hall DAC which is being fed by Sonos and other digital signals.

Soundproof and other forum members I would like to thank you for your very valuable insights!

As said I will put this plan in practice in September when getting the Oppo. Out of curiosity, Soundproof I just have one last question: As you used the past time in your sentences I assume you don't have this set-up anymore. Are you again a step ahead of us and in which direction would that be? Thanks and best regards, Paul

Another OPPO user - great

Please do return with your experiences when comes september.

Greetings MM

pauliander:

Out of curiosity, Soundproof I just have one last question: As you used the past time in your sentences I assume you don't have this set-up anymore. Are you again a step ahead of us and in which direction would that be? Thanks and best regards, Paul

Following my very early experiments with playback from a NAS to BL5s and other active speakers, with remote control from iPod/iPhone/iPad, I've gone backwards in time to vintage collecting. I now have 2 Beolab 5000 amplifiers, a Beosystem 1200, the Beogram 3000 (TD124) record player and a number of other vintage components, including a Garrard 301 turntable and a reel-to-reel player.(As well as a barn full of vinyl records).

But the BL5s remain among the very best speakers I have listened to, delivering incredibly realistic playback, once I had them set up right. And as a friend who is very surprised by my present vintage-addiction says: whenever you want that sound again, all you have to do is get a pair of BL5s. They are fantastic speakers, delivering sound only achievable with conventional speakers high, high above their price.

If you can't wait until September to check the suggestions above, you could go through with borrowing a player from one of your acquaintances, as mentioned above. We'll be looking forward to your report!

Hi Soundproof,

I have been reading your interesting posts and learning from setups.

In your amusing (indeed!) set of connection  (which is very close to the system I am trying to build) mentioned in this post, do you have to switch the OPT setting of BL5 from 0 to 1 when you change the source from BeoMaster to Surround? And how would you make sure the sound level are matching between BL5 and BL3?

And what do you think if BL5/BL3 are directly connected to Pre-outs of 95 instead of a home theatre processor (I recall that you had a Cambridge Audio :) )?

Cary

 

 

 

Sorry Soundproof. You have already answered the question about Option reset in the previous posts, and also about connecting directly to Oppo pre-outs  -- Google redirected me to page 2 of this thread and I did not see you previous posts until I went up to page 1.

So the question down to how you match the volumes of BL5 and BL3?

Also which do you think will give better result for stereo playback? Digital into BL5 from Oppo 95, or AUX into BS9000 from Oppo 95's dedicated surround out then powerlink into BL5?

Thanks!

Cary

 

You will definitely not need separate subwoofers, once you connect and set up your Oppo to the BL5s.

And you will be very satisfied with the phantom centre channel, once you set that up right (deselecting centre channel).

For movie playback, I would go with the 7.1 pre outs from the Oppo, to BL5 and BL3s.
Balance the audio level on the BL3s using the set-up on the Oppo.
Store a comfortable opening volume on the BL5s (see the manual). Use the Oppo set-up for multichannel to balance the channels - you'll get pink noise to separate channels, and they are all to be perceived to be at the same level from your listening position. If the volume adjust on the pre-out set-up doesn't let you get the BL5s to the right level, then adjust the start-up level for the BL5s correspondingly. It won't take you long to get them all balanced correctly.

Then it's down to how technical you want to get in your setup, when watching movies. I used the volume control for the receiver to adjust the volume up and down on the speakers. That is, I used the Beo4 to switch on the BL5s, and then used the receiver remote to control audio, etc.
Now, you can get an interface that will translate Beo4 signals to something the Oppo will understand, but I wouldn't bother.

Next - how to get your BeoSound 9000 into the fun, without having to change option settings?

BL5s auto-detect an S/PDIF signal, and you should consider how you want to use that. If your two-channel music playback will be from the Oppo, then you might want to consider sending the S/PDIF coax-out straight to the BL5s. But the BeoSound 9000 also has S/PDIF out, and everything that goes through it, is translated to that, I believe. (Can't remember off the top of my head whether radio, AUX, etc., is also sent through the S/PDIF).

If you have Powerlink from the BeoSound 9000 to the BL5s, and S/PDIF from the Oppo to the BL5s, and you set the BL5s up as if you're running a B&O components system - then, when you hit CD on the BS9000, you'll switch on the BL5s, and you'll be able to control their volume through the BS9000. But the moment you put music on the Oppo, what comes down the S/PDIF will take precedence - so you'll be controlling the BL5s through the BS9000, but the BL5s will assume the S/PDIF is coming from the BS9000, when it's coming from the Oppo.
You'll have to use two remotes.

I just switched Option settings from B&O to non-B&O when I wanted to watch movies. Then I controlled the BL5s for startup with the Beo4, put that aside, and ran the rest of the show with the receiver remote, with all speakers getting their signal from the pre-outs.

Make sure you have a sync-cable between the BL5s, that way, you'll be certain that both speakers are responding to the same command, and you won't have to worry about whether you have pointed the Beo4 so that both speakers "see" it.