ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
The concept that it is important to keep the stylus clean on any Beogram is so basic that on the surface it might appear unnecessary, even frivolous to bring up the subject.
Like so many of you guys, I take pride in keeping my vinyl records clean and the Beogram dustcovers are never, but NEVER left open. As such I was confident of the cleanliness of my six Beogram styluses.
I acquired a new record, “Missing You” by No Mercy and wanted to hear how it would sound on my bass-heavy amplifier. I cranked up the volume and was enjoying the music when the volume dropped along with distortion that was just unbelievable.
I had no doubt that my amp had bit the dust….. I mean NO doubt, so I turned down the volume before things could get worse.
But just on a caprice I tried the FM section and there was no problem there.
So I took out the MMC6000 stylus from my Beogram 8000 and got out my trusty 20X jeweler’s loupe. I didn’t need the loupe as there was a “hairball” of crud on the needle. With the loupe it was staggering to see the amount of garbage that surrounded the needle.
Once removed I was further shocked to find a small piece of broken black plastic wedged solidly between the needle and the shaft. All the brushing in the world with an artist’s paintbrush and alcohol wasn’t going to dislodge that piece of plastic….. that took a very sharp knife.
Once the unwanted debris and broken plastic was removed the amp returned to it normal self.
Enlightened I had previously made a mental note that my absolutely stellar Beogram 4000 and it’s vintage but superb MMC20CL stylus wasn’t sounding up to its usual lofty standard, so I inspected it and found more crud. Nothing compared to the MMC6000, a light cleaning was all that was needed to bring the 4000 back to where it should be.
Now energized on a mission of cleanness I checked my remaining Beogram 4004, 8002, and 4002. They were all remarkably clean, but I didn’t know that until I checked.
The point I am hoping to make is if it can happen to me it can happen to anyone, so periodically it is a good idea to check your styluses for cleanliness. I don’t know what to recommend for a inspection schedule as every household is different.
That said, if the stylus is clean, you will have wasted very little time….. and if the stylus needs cleaning, then it NEEDS cleaning.
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
I clean mine about once a year using an artist paintbrush and eyeglasses cleaning solution. Base ingrediant being ISP with a bit of soap mixed in.
I clean mine regularly when I inspect the stylus. I use a dry cleaning method. I cut a small quarter inch thick pad from a Magic Eraser and use it to dip my stylus into. It is important that no lateral movement of the stylus is made. Just straight down and straight up. The Magic Eraser will remove anything on the tip. To clean the cantilever and other areas around the tip, I cut a small sliver of the Magic Eraser material and use it like a brush (carefully avoiding the tip). It removes all the small dust particles.
sonavor: I clean mine regularly when I inspect the stylus. I use a dry cleaning method. I cut a small quarter inch thick pad from a Magic Eraser and use it to dip my stylus into. It is important that no lateral movement of the stylus is made. Just straight down and straight up. The Magic Eraser will remove anything on the tip. To clean the cantilever and other areas around the tip, I cut a small sliver of the Magic Eraser material and use it like a brush (carefully avoiding the tip). It removes all the small dust particles.
Yep! Magic Eraser here too!
Jacques
I always reckoned the MMC6000 was the most efficient record cleaner available! One play of even the cleanest record and one would see a huge amount of rubbish on the stylus! I used to play the record once without listening and then clean the stylus and listen properly!! Use CLs now which don't seem so bad!
Peter
Yes, some of out there did not care cleaning. This MMC4 I had to clean with knife...
blah-blah and photographs as needed
I find that this Discwashwer product, or a cotton bud dampened with rubbing alcohol will remove caked-on crud. I do both steps.
Peter: I always reckoned the MMC6000 was the most efficient record cleaner available! One play of even the cleanest record and one would see a huge amount of rubbish on the stylus! I used to play the record once without listening and then clean the stylus and listen properly!! Use CLs now which don't seem so bad!
Peter,
I didn’t know this about the MMC6000, but considering the amount of crud I found on the stylus, I have NO trouble believing this!
Thanks for the insight!
Now I don’t feel quite so alone….. thank you.
Michael Fremer is a vinyl preacher, attached to Stereophile. He got a shock when he checked out the stylus on one of his very expensive Pick-Ups, after just a few records.
I clean them regularly. With a dry brush after each record, and with a magic eraser occasionally. Also did some experiments with just lowering the stylus into a Q-tip head, and it was amazing how clean the stylus became. Just lowering it into the head - before and after through a microscope showed a remarkable effect.
Peter Lederman of Soundsmith warns against using solvents or liquids, as that will reduce the strength of the glue used to attach the diamond to the stylus. (When the solvent evaporates, it cools down the stylus/diamond, this attracts moisture from the air, and that moisture attacks the glue.)
I can only agree.
I use AM stylus cleaner and AM record cleaner for vinyl records.
I have done it for a long time and my records gets cleaned before I play it. My MMC20CL is very good to collect the dirt so I just spray it on before playing.
Also clean the heads of your Beocords! Capstan and the rubber wheels. A lot of cassette tapes are old so do leave dirt and makes the sound muddy even without dolby on.
I have a question about inspecting the stylus. Unfortunately I don't have the equipment (microscope with camera) to inspect and share pictures. I do have a couple inexpensive magnifiers (the type with an LED light). While not the best, I can rig up my biggest magnifier (supposedly 100X) and look at my MMC stylus. My cartridges play good and from what I can tell, look fine. But I was wondering, aside from something obvious like a broken tip, would I be able to really tell how much wear I had?
It would be nice if the forum had some detailed pictures of various stylus (MMC1, 2, 3, 4 & 5, plus 20CL, 20EN, 6000, 4000...whatever we can get) posted. Preferably in known, new condition. Something to reference for comparing our own cartridges to. Maybe it could be a new thread in the Beogram section of the forum.
-sonavor
I did do some a while ago, mainly of 20CLs. I will dig them out again when I am home.
Thanks Peter, looking forward to it. Meanwhile, I bought a small Panavise to hold my cheap magnifier. A temporary microscope until I can buy a good one with a camera. Today I inspected my MMC cartridges along with the 4000 and 6000. You are right about the 6000. It does seem to be a dust magnet and requires more frequent cleaning.
OK, I’ll bite, why is the MMC6000 such a dust collector?
I am under the impression that the MMC6000 is the four-channel version and/or predecessor of the superb MMC20CL.
Certainly the MMC6000 is an excellent stylus vis-à-vis audio performance, aside from its unwelcome attraction to crud.
I have three MMC20CL’s in place and only one was remotely dirty, nothing vaguely compared to the MMC6000.
Now I know that Leslie likes photos, but I’ll admit I was more interested in removing the crud as opposed to documenting it for posterity. In addition in my lifetime I have had some pretty dirty styluses, but the worst of these merely muddied the sound, not the dramatic volume drop and the horrific noise that my MMC6000 delivered.
It is not with the slightest exaggeration when I said in the beginning of this thread that I was absolutely convinced that I had suffered a complete amplifier failure….. I know what one sounds like and this was it. (Only it wasn’t)
From what Peter says I can expect it will happen again, only next time I won’t go into a panic, I’ll know to clean the stylus.
Still I’d love to know why this occurs.
Piaf: OK, I’ll bite, why is the MMC6000 such a dust collector? Jeff
I guess it has to do with the shape of the stylus. In examining my MMC 1 and 2 types along with the 20CL, the diamond is like a railroad spike. On the 6000, the diamond is like a cone (a mountain shape). Perhaps that shape picks up and holds the particles that come off the vinyl. That might also feed particles to the cantilever too. I'm just guessing though.
Every record, every time. I clean any stylus prior to playing vinyl. Moreover, I clean the record thoroughly, too, before every playing. I'm fastidious in this and the vinyl I bought new in the 1970s plays as clearly and quietly today as when new. It's very easy to tell which records came from a used record store.
Clean everything, every time.
With the care of records, in addition to regular cleaning, which is a wonderful idea, I find the use of extra cost plastic-lined sleeves to be a HUGE improvement over the standard issue paper sleeves. You can just “hear” the minute scratching every time you take a record in or out of one of those record company issued sleeves.
I purchased boxes of plastic lined record sleeves and replaced all the paper ones with these more gentle sleeves. Of course if the original sleeve had cool printing on it, photos of the artist and such, I kept it in addition to the more protective plastic one.
Piaf: With the care of records, in addition to regular cleaning, which is a wonderful idea, I find the use of extra cost plastic-lined sleeves to be a HUGE improvement over the standard issue paper sleeves. You can just “hear” the minute scratching every time you take a record in or out of one of those record company issued sleeves. I purchased boxes of plastic lined record sleeves and replaced all the paper ones with these more gentle sleeves. Of course if the original sleeve had cool printing on it, photos of the artist and such, I kept it in addition to the more protective plastic one. Jeff
Absolutely agree! Those are far, far superior to paper sleeves, and are very gentle on the records.
Also, a properly setup and functioning B&O turntable is about the safest and least damagaging way to play your records. Between the low stylus mass, excellent tracking ability of the cartridges, the floating suspension on most B&O tables, etc. It's hard to find a better way to play your albums.
I still have a Discwasher stylus brush that works well, about a centimeter or so wide circular densely bristled brush, bristles about 5mm high. I also use an Audio Advisor Record Doctor II vacuum record cleaner, it also works really well to clean up vinyl and keep it clean.
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
The MMC6000 has a Pramanik profile diamond, named after the B&O engineer who designed it and who was largely responsible for the Beogram 4000 arm and cartridge design. The p[rofile is a modified Shibata stylus but where the Shibata have a reduced aspect to the leading edge of the stylus, the Pramanik also has a reduced trailing edge. This means that it can track the very high frequency undulations seen in a CD4 record. It also means it goes nice and deep in the groove and has a long but thin contact area on the groove. Needless to say, it can excavate the rubbish lying at the bottom very nicely!!
B&O did a very nice demonstration model of the cartridges - MMC3000, 4000, 5000 and 6000. I think Lee might have a set! It allowed dealers to give a crude demonstration of the advantages of a thin contact area - the design was simplified for the 20CL.
For those interested, Subir Pramanik's wife has worked for many years answering queries for beoinfo - I am not sure but think she has retired now but was a charming and very informative lady whom I always found very helpful.
Hi Peter,
You have a genuine gift for words.
Thank you for your articulately written answer to my question.
It makes perfect sense that a narrower stylus will be able to drop deeper into a record groove and be able to “excavate” debris that other styluses would miss.
My very good friend who has sent me so many B&O “goodies” over the years sent me what he felt was the “correct” stylus for my Beogram 4000, a MMC4000, although I never used the 4000 in the 4000. The 6000 was sent as some sort of “back-up” yet it ended up in the Beogram 8000, where it will stay.
Whereas I find the MMC 6000 thoroughly impressive, I prefer the MMC20CL.
I have attached a picture I added text to that shows an elliptical and a Pramanik stylus in a record groove. The contact line and Shibata shapes also get more surface contact between the stylus and groove (than the elliptical). What I was saying about the MMC 6000, that this picture doesn't show, is that the base for the tip is more conical (all the way to the cantilever). While the 20CL, MMC1 and MMC2 have straight, vertical sides from the cantilever down to the tip. I was wondering if the conical shape (of the base, not the actual tip) is allowing more of the groove debris to collect on the stylus.
Wow, whoever said a picture is worth a thousand words wasn’t kidding, and this one is!
Thank you.
Excellent photo! I remember someone, maybe Audio Technica since they were big on the Shibata bandwagon, used to have a display with an oversized record groove and three clear plastic styluses, each about 3inches in diameter. The idea was you could take each and run it down the groove and see the differences in how they contacted the groove wall. Neat marketing toy.
Back in the day I had an Audio Technica AT-15SLA, which had a Shibata stylus. I remember it retailed for $150 and I got it from them on an employee accommodation deal for $26. Which was even better than the dealer cost of under $50 if I remember right. Huge markup in cartridges and stylii back then. Now the big markup items are wire and cables.
I remember it sounded good, tracked very well, but I preferred the sound of my lower end Grado.
I found this web site - The Microscopy of Vinyl Records that, on page 4, demonstrates wear on an elliptical stylus. The pictures of the wear points on the elliptical stylus tip shows me that, even though I can use my crude magnifier to view my various phono stylus at 100X, I need a real microscope with much higher capability to really determine the wear on the stylus tip.
20CL
Interesting little fact - the 20CLs I have have the square section of the diamond with the sides parallel to the cantilever. The Soundsmith cartridge is set so the sides are at 45 degrees. Obviously the profile is cut is a different way.
sonavor: I found this web site - The Microscopy of Vinyl Records that, on page 4, demonstrates wear on an elliptical stylus. The pictures of the wear points on the elliptical stylus tip shows me that, even though I can use my crude magnifier to view my various phono stylus at 100X, I need a real microscope with much higher capability to really determine the wear on the stylus tip. -sonavor
Why are you concerned about wear on a diamond tipped stylus? As a retail jeweller I can tell you that a diamond is the hardest substance on Earth coming from nature and vinyl, soft as it is, is NO match for a diamond.
In a jewellry application while other gemstones show wear with time, diamond do not. CZ’s and other diamond substitutes show wear in months and even sapphire will show wear on the facets over a very prolonged period.
Of course jewellry is not designed or exposed to regular wear as is a stylus; however I am of the opinion that our cartridges suffer from the suspension components aging rather than any significant wear on the diamond tip.
Piaf: ...I am of the opinion that our cartridges suffer from the suspension components aging rather than any significant wear on the diamond tip. Jeff
...I am of the opinion that our cartridges suffer from the suspension components aging rather than any significant wear on the diamond tip.
For those of us that keep our vinyl nice and clean, that is probably true. However, wear does occur on the stylus eventually. I am just wanting to get a thread going with information and images in place so we can compare the cartridges we own and have a better idea of the condition. When cartridges are put up for sale, the description of the condition is always vague. I doubt if anyone tracks exactly how many hours are on their cartridge. The wear can be different anyway. It is just good to know all the factors regarding the wear and tear on the vinyl and cartridges. I thought is was interesting (in that link) to actually see wear on the stylus tip.
There are ways to extend the life of the vinyl and cartridge though - - proper turntable setup and cartridge balance- keeping the vinyl and cartridge clean- let the vinyl rest and recover after playing (don't keep playing the same record over and over during the day)The reason I bought my first Beogram 4002 back in 1976 was for the benefit of my vinyl collection. It didn't hurt that it was a beautiful turntable though.
You'd be surprised at how much wear you can get on a diamond stylus, if you play a lot of records it wears out faster than the suspension, which takes quite a few years to harden. One thing, it's very hard to see wear with a standard microscope, but you can easily see it with a true stereo binocular microscope, depth perception makes a huge difference.
Hello Jeff,
I am in no position to offer you a real debate, however even sapphire styluses last a very long time and sapphire (corundum) is not remotely as hard as a diamond.
Going back to my diamond training over the years, diamonds can be chipped or even broken by a shape blow at the “wrong” point; however the ONLY thing that can cut a diamond is a diamond.
You literally could saw on a diamond with the hardest steel blade you can find, but all you would accomplish is you would wear out the blade and the diamond would be unmarked.
With thousands of hours of play I imagine that the diamond stylus does wear, but intellectually I don’t understand how it is possible for household debris/dust and a polished vinyl surface to wear a diamond point down.
Perhaps it has to do with the fact that jewellers are most satisfied with a 10X loop, 20X when you are “serious” and 30X in the most extreme of circumstances.
That said, if it takes such an extraordinary microscope to show wear on a diamond stylus, especially if the wear is even, what possible effect could that have? I mean you said that “it is very hard to see wear with a standard microscope.” Well if it is nearly impossible to see the wear with a standard microscope I fail to see where such minute wear could have a dramatic effect of the sound reproduction.
Remember, we are talking about a very small area of the stylus, the tip, that is the part that contacts the grooves (which are also very small). In any case, the important point is that well cared for record playing equipment can extend the life of the vinyl and the stylus. For me, I am still amazed that vinyl works like it does. Digital information that is read from memory and converted to an analog signal is much easier to see how it would work well. The process where some cutting tool makes a mold to produce a bunch of vinyl copies that, in turn, wind up on a spinning platter where a stylus rides the grooves and accurately reproduces an orchestra is amazing. I think that is why I will always enjoy vinyl as my preferred audio source.
I can't remember how long in hours a typical diamond stylus lasts, if well cared for certainly many hundreds, but as mentioned the size is small and stresses are high. I recall reading that the stylus actually melts the vinyl which then resolidifies almost immediately. And while diamond is hard, it's also fragile, and can crack along faults. I know I've looked at plenty of worn stylii. And it doesn't take a particularly exceptional microscope, not very high powered, just stereo as you having depth perception makes it very easy to see the wear.
I know what you mean sonavor, if I knew nothing about either system and someone presented the LP approach and the CD approach, there's no way the LP approach would make sense! We are going to record vibrations on a spinning plastic disc, that has different linear speed depending on how far in the disc the groove is, and play it back by dragging an electro mechanical low mass transducer down the groove...you'd be laughed out of the room.
It works amazingly well all things considered, but regardless of audiophile lore it's a long way from perfect.
I agree, the fact that vinyl works at all is amazing. The old 78’s were hard as a rock and the stylus was beyond crude, but music they made. Beyond this, with all our technical advancements, digital on parade, it is vinyl that sound the most lifelike and by a considerable margin vis-à-vis the next best thing, the compact disk.
Also, as a jewellry professional I can absolutely confirm that diamonds, while extremely hard, are susceptible to cleavage and most certainly chipping.
Now strike a diamond against the grain (the direction the diamond grew) and nothing, but NOTHING is going to happen. Strike the same diamond along the grain line and you might well have two diamonds instead of one.
Now let’s get back to the real world. In 1974 I purchased my first Beogram 4002 which came with a MMC20CL cartridge. I simply adored that turntable and used it constantly.
Then in 1985 my B&O dealer insisted that it was time for a new cartridge, which I purchased, but kept the original as a spare. Lightning struck the 4002 which blew the tip off the new needle while frying all the internal electronics…. but I still had my spare MMC20CL cartridge.
Today, 39 years later my original MMC20CL resides in my much talked about Beogram 4000. This combination is my conversation “ender.” That is to say someone who thinks that CD’s are better than vinyl and wants to compare, or better still valued audiophile friends who have heard me talk about my Beogram 4000 and want to compare it to their systems.
This Beogram 4000 and its ancient MMC20CL cartridge has never failed to earn an “OMG, my system is crap” reaction. Most recently a friend with a mega-buck system, sterling wiring, and big ticket speakers came over with his vinyl favorites and this comment was his reaction to HIS records being played on my Beogram 4000.
Accounting for the many years of non-service (I am being EXACT here) assuming I only used this cartridge for 1 hour a day (There were days of no use and days with 5 hours….) that comes to a whopping 6,570 hours on this MMC20CL and the quality of the sound will still blow friends socks off…. and has. This is not debatable, this is a fact.
So what’s my point? Well certainly I have an incredible survivor, but it will not last forever. And when this MMC20CL ceases to amaze my audiophile buddies I am willing to stick my neck out and say it will be suspension components that failed (got hard), not the diamond stylus.
I agree to a point - though I have had styluses wear - my 6000s certainly did - I don't have a picture unfortunately but I reckon it fractured! My CLs, like yours, seem to go on for ever. I am afraid mine rarely get much of a work out these days though.
On the suspension change, in my experience this only have affected cartridges really when tracking CD4 records where they seem unable to cope with the very high frequencies. I base this assertion on the fact that some can and some cannot despite having very similar tips.
ouverture:broken cantilevers, coils going (one channel working the other not) and stylii falling off (or knocked off the cantilever) are more common problems IMHO than worn out tips, certainly from the eighty odd MMC's we have examined in the last 12 months
I certainly would agree with every word. All the components you listed are subject to wear and tear, but as I said previously as a trained jeweller, I CAN tell you that diamonds will not wear easily.
I am positive that if I got out my diamond class books I could make a very strong case for the extreme durability of the diamond with its 3.52 specific gravity (that means it is dense and 3.52 times heaver than water) plus the fact that a diamond is 140 times harder than the next hardest element corundum (sapphire).
It really boils down to simple physics, the harder substance wins. You rub Plexiglas against glass and glass wins. Then rub glass with steel and steel wins.
Now in a very uneven contest, take a diamond tipped stylus and rub it against vinyl, the hardest substance known to man against plastic with organic particles of dust thrown in, and guess who wins? Yep, the diamond.
Wouldn't be much of a business model if your customers were convinced that the diamond could never wear down.