ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
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There is a new article on the blog today: http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2013/11/15/bo-tech-whats-so-great-about-active-loudspeakers/ B&O Tech: What’s so great about active loudspeakers?
There is a new article on the blog today:
http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2013/11/15/bo-tech-whats-so-great-about-active-loudspeakers/
Thanks geoff.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Chris Townsend:When I'm handing over my credit card, all the trendy pictures and lifestyle images pale into insignificance, when compared to this sort of technical description of what work goes into the speakers.
I could not agree more, and would also like to extend my grateful appreciation and thanks to Geoff for both his forum contributions, and now his Blog, where he is outlining some of the details as regards B&O tech.
I've been reading his blog with great interest, and am looking forward to the latest articles.
Well Done Geoff and B&O!
John...
Couldn't agree more with blog but doesn't active also give far more control of driver which gives headphone like clarity
I'm finding Geoff's participation here, and the blog, very informative and valuable, as well as just interesting and provoking some good conversations.
If you go back in time and look, it's been a long, long time since B&O concentrated on playing the engineering specs and sound mag review game, having a history of advertising in design and architecture mags instead. Unfortunately, this has too often led to a lot of the audio buying public spawning a belief that B&O is pretty but basically mediocre technically. Those of us who know more about the brand and have followed it for decades realize how wrong this belief is, and while B&O like any firm has had some products that aren't as high a performance as others, in general they know how to engineer for sound as well or better than many allegedly high end companies.
That's one reason I cheered when the Lab 5's came out, here was a statement product from B&O, a monumental technical achievement that can stand with any other "high end" speaker and trounce it IMO. And at what for that market is a bargain price (not that I've been able to rationalize the cost yet).
Having listened to the old active speakers, and with the info available on the upcoming new ones, this is probably a golden age for B&O speaker design. Unfortunately it occurs yet again at a time when B&O is struggling, as are so many consumer electronics firms. I hope Geoff's blogging will do some good and not just wind up as preaching to the choir.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Thanks for spotting that MM.
Geoff's article is well worth reading, and I agree with Jeff's analysis above. B&O have spent so much time and effort on selling to the design conscious groups that all technical merit is dismissed by the audio savvy crowd without proper examination. The beolab 5 probably does blow away all the competition and has the bonus of unique design. I regularly use a 40 year old Beomaster with Beovox speakers that never fail to impress visitors with their output. When they see that it's B&O they also think that it's a current model!
No matter what politicians utter about growth and recovery, we seem to be in a worldwide economic decline where a shrinking proportion of people can actually afford quality goods. (I'll contradict myself here by saying that I can't understand how so many people have expensive mobile phone packages and find the need to upgrade every year! It's probably part of that thinking that high monthly payments can be tolerated for many products and services, but a one off capital cost is not worth saving for.)
Quality and innovation carried B&O through the 30’s depression. I hope they are in a position to repeat that act now. Geoff needs to keep working on getting the right message out!
Graham
Maybe the article was triggered by one of my questions in the posting that Geoff made a while ago?
Anyway this theme (or the approach to this thematic) is - as Jeff points out - very important, as it states how B&O work with sound (and have worked now for decades). They just did not tell that part of the story.
It is time that the tech-focussed get the possibility to learn what B&O is capable of - time to have 'brushed off' the image of 'being technically behind all others'.
What interested me the most in the article was, that I got a rather 'simple' explanation of the differences in 'old school' crossover technology and the new DSP-based way of handling sound, driver, cabinets... (I see noone but B&O doing it with this expertice).
Now it is easier for me to explain (to someone else), why we don't need the huge (as a frige) 20th century loudspeakers with dozens of drivers (and external poweramps / bi- or tri-amped) to get good sound anymore.
Imagine 6 of those LS in a 7.1 setup
Though I must confess, that I did not succeed in convincing the 'die hard' Penta lovers, who believe that the Penta (Vox) is the best LS B&O ever made, and think that the modern DSP-based crossover technology is just an excuse to make smaller (and cheaper) loudspeakers with bigger WAF.
Greetings Millemissen
Jeff: I'm finding Geoff's participation here, and the blog, very informative and valuable, as well as just interesting and provoking some good conversations. If you go back in time and look, it's been a long, long time since B&O concentrated on playing the engineering specs and sound mag review game, having a history of advertising in design and architecture mags instead. Unfortunately, this has too often led to a lot of the audio buying public spawning a belief that B&O is pretty but basically mediocre technically. Those of us who know more about the brand and have followed it for decades realize how wrong this belief is, and while B&O like any firm has had some products that aren't as high a performance as others, in general they know how to engineer for sound as well or better than many allegedly high end companies. That's one reason I cheered when the Lab 5's came out, here was a statement product from B&O, a monumental technical achievement that can stand with any other "high end" speaker and trounce it IMO. And at what for that market is a bargain price (not that I've been able to rationalize the cost yet). Having listened to the old active speakers, and with the info available on the upcoming new ones, this is probably a golden age for B&O speaker design. Unfortunately it occurs yet again at a time when B&O is struggling, as are so many consumer electronics firms. I hope Geoff's blogging will do some good and not just wind up as preaching to the choir.
Jeff I wholeheartedly agree.
I'm thinking that if Geoff is comfortable, that I might link his website/blog, with the B&O articles, to a number of other Hifi forums that I occasionally contribute to, so as to get the message out - as you say, there is still so much of a perception about B&O being all about a pretty face with not much (HiFi) substance.
In fact I'm sure most of us here are members of at least one or two other HiFi forums, so it could be a real help to B&O and to Geoff to get the message out by linking to other sites perhaps.
Kind regards
John: (...) In fact I'm sure most of us here are members of at least one or two other HiFi forums, so it could be a real help to B&O and to Geoff to get the message out by linking to other sites perhaps. Kind regards John...
(...)
I'm already doing this: http://www.myaudioshop.si/forum_slo/posti/high_end/bangolufsen_od_iskre_do_ikone/page/1/#pid399
BS A1 2nd gen, BS 1, Beo 1, BL 2, BeoCom 2, 2x LC 2, Form 2, BS 2, Beosound 2, Beplay M3, 2x BS 3, BS 4, 2x Beo 4, BS 5 + CD rip, BM 5, BL 5, BL 6000, Beo 6, BS 6, H6, BL 8000, 2x A8, BV 8-40, H9, 3x A9 Keyring, BL 12 - 3, Serenata, BeoTime, BeoTalk 400, B&O Bottle Opener, BV Eclipse 55 My LEGO
John:I'm thinking that if Geoff is comfortable, that I might link his website/blog, with the B&O articles, to a number of other Hifi forums that I occasionally contribute to
I'm cool with that! Please spread the word!
However, I would prefer it if you simply linked to my site - instead of copying-and-pasting into another site. I often go back and make small edits after the fact, so just re-pasting on another site is probably a bad idea - not to mention somewhat questionable with respect to IP.
;-)
Cheers
-g
alenvprekrsku: I'm already doing this: http://www.myaudioshop.si/forum_slo/posti/high_end/bangolufsen_od_iskre_do_ikone/page/1/#pid399
Uh... couldn't you just put a link to my site on your site rather than making a clone?
-geoff
Geoff Martin: John:I'm thinking that if Geoff is comfortable, that I might link his website/blog, with the B&O articles, to a number of other Hifi forums that I occasionally contribute to I'm cool with that! Please spread the word! However, I would prefer it if you simply linked to my site - instead of copying-and-pasting into another site. I often go back and make small edits after the fact, so just re-pasting on another site is probably a bad idea - not to mention somewhat questionable with respect to IP. ;-) Cheers -g
Hi Geoff
Many thanks for the heads up and permission to link your blog site to other HiFi forums - and will just link as you request.
I'm finding the articles fascinating and love the technical insight into the product, and also the pics of the Beolab 3's etc.
I'm waiting on tenter hooks for some inside pics of the Beolab 9's ... I'm very interested to see how the best speakers I've ever owned are put together... :-)
Many thanks again
Well, I'm not very happy with Geoff's blog at all - since discovering it and his main website I've lost hours reading it when I'm supposed to be working!
In all seriousness, though, it's very well written and researched, and superbly presented. It has reminded me of a good few things I'd forgotten and taught me a good number of new things as well.
Millemissen: ....the new DSP-based way of handling sound, driver, cabinets... (I see noone but B&O doing it with this expertice).
....the new DSP-based way of handling sound, driver, cabinets... (I see noone but B&O doing it with this expertice).
Meridian Audio might be a little upset to read that...
https://www.meridian-audio.com/en/meridian-world/brand-group/10/stories/
AdamS: Meridian Audio might be a little upset to read that...
Hi AdamS,
actually I know Meridian, so I'll have to excuse for the above sentence.
Meridian does a GREAT job with speakers - sometimes I was even tempted to get a pair of those beasts.
Still I see the approach of Bang & Olufsen as a more 'handable' - it is easier to integrate the BL's in different setups.
I hope I'm not being presumptuous, but I had some thoughts today about the design of the Beolab 9 & 5 cabinets, v's the likes of the B&W 800 series, and wondered if if might be a subject to suggest to Geoff for a blog article perhaps? In part I'm prompted by a friend who is tossing up between some B&W 802D's and some B&O 9's or 5's - albeit a little down the track - he's at the 'thinking about what he will buy' stage.
Traditional flat baffled cabinets have difficulties with standing waves and reflections on the front of the baffle, adding to the sum of the speakers output in the frontal plane, and adding distortion, and there are additional problems with internal reflections and standing waves being formed with cabinets formed with parallel surfaces - i.e. the ubiquitous MDF/veneered and ported bass reflex rectangular or cuboid speaker box.
B&W 800 series takes the wood cabinet to a very high level, being made of pressure bent and glued multi-layer plywood, with consequently curved sides, and of course their internal bracing system - 'matrix' which is very much like a wooden milk crate in terms of the internal cross bracing. According to their published white papers, this gives negligible cabinet acoustic readout.
They also isolate their drivers from cabinet vibration by using a gel, incased in rubber, which they call 'Isogel' and along with very high perceived quality as regards their drivers, (Diamond tweeter, FST midrange, and the Rohacell bass drivers) they appear(?) to have a slight technical leg up on the B&O lab series when it comes to cabinets and drivers.
But do they?
B&O make the Lab 5 and 9 cabinets out of 'composite' material, which as far as I can research, is a combination of plastic and resin. Naturally, this means they can mould it into any shape they want, so parallel cabinet walls, internal standing waves and reflections, and further standing waves and reflections from a flat front baffle are not on the agenda.
However, how well does plastic/resin hold up to a matrix braced wood structure, or other wood based cabinet designs when it comes to suppressing cabinet vibration and subsequent acoustic readout I wonder. For those sorts of questions, I'm unable to find any answers through online research.
And in the overall 'real world' scenario, just how important is cabinet readout anyway? Is it something that audiophiles pursue to below the levels of audibility for marketing bragging rights, or is there good reason to eliminate cabinet readout as much as possible?
What of driver/cabinet isolation, and types of driver material that B&O obviously consider when making design and manufacturing decisions re the technology choices available to them?
I don't have the answers to these sorts of questions, as I'm not an qualified engineer, and as my interest in B&O is primarily that of a trained classical musician and music and film lover who wants an audiophile neurosis free experience in the home, I can fairly say that B&O satisfies me on sound quality and ownership satisfaction grounds that no other audio kit I've ever owned before has.
However, whether it is my past (hopefully!) audiophool days, or just intellectual and technical curiosity, these sorts of details into B&O speakers do fascinate me, and I mention them in part out of curiosity, and with that simply the hope of providing some thoughts of a topic for Geoff to write about in the future perhaps.
Certainly I'd love to hear about B&O's design decisions in their choice of cabinet materials and shapes, and also the drivers they use - i.e. materials, custom built, or 'off the shelf' OEM parts etc. I would assume there are sound reasons for example, why B&O do not make their own drivers in-house, even though a lot of the other manufacturing is in house in fact.
Anyway, just some thoughts running around in my head that may be of interest to Geoff as a blog article idea.
John:B&O make the Lab 5 and 9 cabinets out of 'composite' material, which as far as I can research, is a combination of plastic and resin.
Without attempting to answer your bigger question, just a word about the word "plastic" - it's used to cover a whole world of engineering polymers and thermoplastics whose properties can be precisely tailored to almost any application, whether it be rigidity, impact resistance, density, low friction etc. Pictures I've seen of the BL5 suggest quite a heavy glass fill (not unlike glass fibre) to increase the stiffness of whatever polymer is being used.
Without having intimate details of the specific requirements, if asked to back a wooden or a "plastic" solution to any given engineering problem, my money's on the plastic!
On the other hand, "plastic", because of the general impression, may be a bit of a hard sell to Joe Public when compared to a lump of polished joinery!
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher: John:B&O make the Lab 5 and 9 cabinets out of 'composite' material, which as far as I can research, is a combination of plastic and resin. Without attempting to answer your bigger question, just a word about the word "plastic" - it's used to cover a whole world of engineering polymers and thermoplastics whose properties can be precisely tailored to almost any application, whether it be rigidity, impact resistance, density, low friction etc. Pictures I've seen of the BL5 suggest quite a heavy glass fill (not unlike glass fibre) to increase the stiffness of whatever polymer is being used. Without having intimate details of the specific requirements, if asked to back a wooden or a "plastic" solution to any given engineering problem, my money's on the plastic! On the other hand, "plastic", because of the general impression, may be a bit of a hard sell to Joe Public when compared to a lump of polished joinery!
Very interesting to hear Puncher, and thank you for your insight into the use of so called 'plastic' materials, in engineering specific product solutions.
I would have to agree that a shiny piece of exotic wood finish, in an elegant shape is a lot easier to 'sell' than a cloth covered plastic cabinet - certainly my friend who's interested is very attracted to the 'look' of the B&W 802D - it looks 'traditional' and 'expensive', whereas the Beolab to him at least is more of an 'acquired' taste.
Personally, I love the look of the Lab 5s and 9's, so I'm not bothered - albeit the 800's can look very nice as well.
In the end, in my own personal decision, I considered the 803D (and have written about my thoughts of it v's Lab 9's elsewhere here on Beoworld) and went with the Lab 9's, with zero regrets.
A years ownership experience of the Lab 9's has not diminished my respect and enjoyment of the product one iota, and were I faced with the same choice again today, i.e. Lab 9 v's an 803D, I'd still take the Lab 9.
However, I am interested why B&O choose the materials and design shapes they do for their speaker cabinets, and also their choice of drivers etc...so maybe Geoff might write about that side of B&O's speaker development and technology at some stage.
Thanks again for the insight into 'plastic' and it's uses/advantages in engineering solutions for a hifi speaker cabinet.
John:I hope I'm not being presumptuous, but I had some thoughts today about the design of the Beolab 9 & 5 cabinets, v's the likes of the B&W 800 series, and wondered if if might be a subject to suggest to Geoff for a blog article perhaps?
Nice one! I'll put it in the (growing) list of article topics. Thanks for the idea.
John: Thanks again for the insight into 'plastic' and it's uses/advantages in engineering solutions for a hifi speaker cabinet. John...
Oh........ and a short quote from the B&W Nautilus brochure -
"The beautifully curved, seamless exterior surface built for the Nautilus is formed from 10mm-thick, glass-reinforced ABS compound. Extremely stiff, solid and durable, with no sharp edges to diffract sound, it's an ideal shape for a speaker enclosure".
AKA "plastic".