ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Firstly, I know as much as you guys... which is very little at the moment apart from a few bits and pieces which I'm sworn to secrecy on, but it's not exactly groundbreaking and you know most of it already.
So, with 2014 in mind - and the future of electronics in mind, where do you think B&O will be at the end of the year, and why - and how?
Between us we have a wealth of knowledge, experience, savvy, awareness and foresight (exclude me from all of that please!) - so I'd like to know where you think the brand is heading.
As it stands the UK market is decimated, the European market is shrinking, China and Russia are the real targets, the mass market manufacturers are struggling (apart from Samsung it seems) and B&O's main competitor (on style and build quality on the whole I suppose) in Loewe is really on the ropes...
So - where do you see the future? Is it bright... Is it dark... Is it a hold fast and ride the storm for another 12 months and take stock after that?
Lee
BeoNut since '75
The European and US economies are running in such a way that the top 1% continue to do very well with their capital and income, but the 99% suffer austerity cuts, income cuts etc etc. B&O should focus on the 1%, and I need to resign myself to buying only second life products or other brands altogether.
If B&O's share price continues to decline they will be vulnerable to a take over bid and the current major shareholders will be very tempted to cut their losses.
Look at what has happened to Saab over a 30 year timescale. Dealership closures. Controlling family sells out. Badge engineering retaining some Saab quirks. GM closes them. Brand eventually resurrected by new Chinese owner but to focus on China.
B&O might just be at the dealership closure stage. The 30 year timescale of yesteryear might now be 30 months. B&O Chinese owned by 2017????
Graham
StUrrock: When you don't sell music systems you don't sell speakers, simples!
When you don't sell music systems you don't sell speakers, simples!
I'd argue a lot of users of this forum would agree with that point. B&O have a lot of new speakers, but almost no music systems to connect to them. Their publicity is all about connecting speakers to a TV.
They definitely need some kind of low-cost cloud-based extended Playmaker, which could be table mounted, on a stand or similar. Basically a cheaper and upgraded Encore, which would connect to Spotify, allow you to stream via AirPlay, from your NAS drive and so on.
Not a grey box that you hide away, a proper music system you're proud to show off. The Encore was mostly there, so gawd knows why they decided to get rid of the Encore but keep the BS5/BM5 combination. No-one needs the BM5 to store music. You can do that on any off-the-shelf NAS drive, far cheaper.
If speakers can easily be connected to other brands of audio/video, there is no need to have several audio systems in the B&o program.
With the Beolab Transmitter 1 the NEW speakers are extremely easy to connect to other audio and video brands! So this way they try to extend their speaker market.
But still I presume B&o will introduce a new audio system which will be integrated in Beonet
Carolpa: If speakers can easily be connected to other brands of audio/video, there is no need to have several audio systems in the B&o program. With the Beolab Transmitter 1 the NEW speakers are extremely easy to connect to other audio and video brands! So this way they try to extend their speaker market. But still I presume B&o will introduce a new audio system which will be integrated in Beonet
Excellent points! For the first time in a long time B&O is capable of working well with other products, at least speakers. As more WISA components become available hopefully more people will consider Beolabs. B&O has a huge head start in active and wireless speakers, and for WISA to be useful you need such speakers. There's a dearth of active speaker makers.
I fully understand why some lust after a statement audio centerpiece, I have my BS9000, and came of age in the big iron days of huge amps and decks and receivers. But even then those of us who really desired such focal points of attention were in the minority, most people, or their wives, don't want to see the gear at all, hence the stunning popularity of those atrocious Bose cubes. add to that the reality of streaming music and the paradigm shifts involved, and IMO one sure way for B&O to fail and disappear is to devote a lot of money and resources in developing a bunch of audio components. I can see a refresh of the BS5 to accomodate wireless,mand say wirelessly talk to a TV, but not much more.
I can also see why dropping the Encore was a good idea, even though I choke on the price of the full BS5. A small company can't waste effort supporting two music servers, based on different OSes no less, in a market where stand alone audio systems are becoming extinct.
I actually think B&Os pretty well configured right now, there has obviously been some thought put into the current approach. BeoPlay for one market segment, mainly the mobile and non traditional audio crowd, new wireless speakers and entertainment hub TVs for others, it makes for a good approach IMO. Whether or not they succeed or fail depends mainly on things like the global economy, the fact they they are still very Eurocentric in sales and the EU economies, as well as the US, are in the crapper and not really getting better. they will need to expand into the Asian markets in a major way I think. And what people truly want, hard to determine in a market and society in flux.
Perhaps they've misjudged the paradigm shift in the market, it's been a turbulent shift since the introduction of the iPod and such, but I haven't seen an approach I think looks like a better guess at what will sell in the near future. The problem is, I think, that B&O is a small company that can't afford failures like Sony or Samsung can, not enough there to buffer a bad decision.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
which must be news I'm sure to B&W, KEF, Polk, and a cast of thousands...
B&O is focusing most of their hopes on China it seems from the conversations here. The Chinese market last year accounted for 1.7 million of the 1.9 million 4K TV sets sold . The writing seems to be very clear. Without a 4K TV the growth in China will be very difficult. Chinese high end consumers want the latest technology. This has never been B&O's strong suit. I guess it depends on if Tue can change that trend.
Another question is the importance of Europe. If B&O fails in Europe will the Chinese still be drawn to the brand? How is Saab selling in China would be a good question?
TOKYO -- Mazda Motor Corp., targeting a one-third surge in U.S. sales over the next two years, plans a sharp rise in sales per outlet and will weed out those dealerships that underperform.
The small carmaker, which relies on exports to North America for nearly a third of its global sales, is channeling its sales and marketing energies into 35 metropolitan markets that it has identified as key to its growth.
Is this so different from what B&O is doing? There are only so many high-level global strategies available to companies that want to maintain their independence and culture. UK has approximately the same number of B&O stores as North America's 50ish. China has 31 stores. Germany has 102 stores and Russia 20.
In the words of Willy Loman when asked why he robbed banks: "Because that's where the money is".
To Jeff's point, the BeoPlay, WISA Speaker, and BeoVision strategies seem to reduce dependence on 3rd party installers, to the customers' benefit.
You don't have to necessarily like something in order to understand it.
Severian:which must be news I'm sure to B&W, KEF, Polk, and a cast of thousands... Jeff Beosound 9000, Beolab 8000s, Beogram 3000 w/MMC2, CX50s, P30s, Beovox 3000s, Beocord 3300, AV7000, Beolab 2000's,Beolink Passive & IR Eye, Beo5 and Beo4
symmes: TOKYO -- Mazda Motor Corp., targeting a one-third surge in U.S. sales over the next two years, plans a sharp rise in sales per outlet and will weed out those dealerships that underperform. The small carmaker, which relies on exports to North America for nearly a third of its global sales, is channeling its sales and marketing energies into 35 metropolitan markets that it has identified as key to its growth. Is this so different from what B&O is doing? There are only so many high-level global strategies available to companies that want to maintain their independence and culture. UK has approximately the same number of B&O stores as North America's 50ish. China has 31 stores. Germany has 102 stores and Russia 20. In the words of Willy Loman when asked why he robbed banks: "Because that's where the money is". To Jeff's point, the BeoPlay, WISA Speaker, and BeoVision strategies seem to reduce dependence on 3rd party installers, to the customers' benefit. You don't have to necessarily like something in order to understand it.
There are mass market approaches that are based on low cost, low margins, and tons of volume from large numbers of dealers and more expensive, higher margin, and exclusive things that are marketed in fewer places. B&O is what it is, it has a decades old design and product philosophy geared towards exclusivity, high quality, and supposedly customer oriented dealers. So they really need to identify the markets that have money but are underserved, like Asia, and aim there. Where there really is I have no clue, hopefully their marketers can figure it out.
You make a good point about the new approach reducing the need for installation. That saves money for the consumer, simplifies things, and given some of the crappy installs I've seem personally removes a potential source of dissatisfaction for the customer. Also, as a lot of people are more mobile not being tied to a hard wired installation is a good thing.
The market for Beo is never going to be huge no matter what they do. In the first place they appeal to people who are design conscious, the same folk who shop,Herman Miller and DWR and probably live in a mid century modern house. That limits their appeal right there, before you even get to the price. I think the Play line is a good idea, as it can sell to people who value something neat and stylish but are younger and less financially robust, or don't have a home that might aesthetically mesh with a larger Beo setup.
I have a buddy who's house is decorated in French country style, it's very well done for that style. And a Beo setup would look as out of place there as an alien at the dinner table.
symmes: In the words of Willy Loman when asked why he robbed banks: "Because that's where the money is".
Willy Sutton, not Loman. Willy Loman was the main character in Arthur Miller's 'Death of a Salesman'.
Today's useless trivia tidbit.
Damn autocorrect ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI
I think the brand is heading in the right direction, but here in Australia, it’s exposure is truly lacking. Apart from being a few specialist stores, who actually knows about B&O? There is no advertising I see (apart from say The Australian newspaper and the like), but for people that may be yet to afford B&O, where do they see it and lust over it?
I saw a Billboard (shock) advertising the V1 on the corner of Chapel and Toorak Rd when the V1 was released with the price showing. I had never EVER seen a B&O advert anywhere before that time. B&O, rule 1, you must be seen where your customers are seen. And I don’t see you.
I see B&O in a stronger position by the end of the year; but from what I see a lot of companies are selling out of China, perhaps the Chinese market is now exhausted; but the global market is not, and B&O shouldn’t forget countries like Australia. I did however read that the Christmas season in retail showed that “luxury” goods are flat. But can they continue to grow?
They finally have released modern speakers with better connections to other equipment. I daresay that speaker sales is not only their bread and butter, but the product with the best margin, so they must learn to play. Too many people say “oh but they don’t work with my stuff” and B&O are yet to get this message fully out there.
B&O still need a music player. Even if some people have their own stereo system, showing the advantages of the one ecosystem should still be available. With the encore gone, there should still be a system with an AM/FM radio, DAB (included and not as an add on – and not everyone wants to use their data connection), Internet Radio, CD, and connection to NAS/network. I think the encore went mainly because an iPad / playmaker combination does nearly (for most) the same thing. You could dock your iPad elegantly and have one dedicated as your music device; but having used both, nothing beats a dedicated system.
Moxxey, I like your idea about cloud based extended Playmaker. Very neat indeed.
I see the future is bright, I think:
Ø BeoPlay was a good move (although I don’t like the name), why didn’t they just have B&O (for BeoPlay) and B&O signature for the traditional high end stuff?
Ø WISA is a good move;
Ø Having B&O be compatible with other equipment for the better as I feel that people would buy speakers first, then that would lead to sales in other areas. “oh if their speakers are that good, let’s try ….”
Ø B&O should get their message out much more effectively and be seen where their customers are, especially here.
To me B&O have a good handle on product now, but really need innovative marketing. Too many people, including those who can easily afford it, know nothing about the brand. I'm beginning to see more ads which is encouraging, how to,pick the right venue to advertise is a thorny issue I think. If they could get their gear used in episodes of some popular show on TV that would be neat, but probably expensive and maybe not worth it.
I will add that design is the main reason I care at all about B&Os future and success. As good as their active speakers are, and I find then very impressive, it they all looked like B&W, Polk, JBL, whatever, and their electronics were the typical metal and plastic boxes, I really wouldn't care if they went under to be honest. They are about the only hifi company I give a damn about, other than some long time US pioneering firms like McIntosh. B&O are the Eames and Saarinen and LeCorbusier of hifi and TVs, the only firm that really emphasizes design, modern aesthetics, and.a unified design language. I couldn't care less if another walnut traditional table gets built, but if someone stopped making Saarinen or Noguchi tables I'd feel that was a terrible loss. Same for B&O.
B&O's marketing has always been, at best, woeful. Exposure is the key; product placement in popular culture, getting the name out there.
I was watching the tennis a few days ago, it was a Women's Final. Serena Williams and Victoria Azarenka were playing. The camera showed them waiting to come out into the stadium just before the match. Both were standing there, silent, while the commentator was introducing them. Both of them had headphones on, listening to music. Both had BIG headphones on! Serena had Beats, I'm not sure what Victoria had..
Imagine they had Beoplay H6 headphones?
Why don't B&O send them a pair each? Simple.. Send a pair of headphones to both of them with a personalised letter from Tue along the lines of 'Dear Serena, I notice you were wearing Beats headphones. I decided to send you a pair of our headphones as I believe you will prefer the sound of Bang & Olufsen. Good luck at the Australian Open...'
Lee for CEO, he understands the brand better than all of us
x:________________________
B&O is at the CES 2014 - receiving massive attention with the WiSA products (Immaculate Wireless Sound).
There has never been that much focus on B&O before.
Good start for 2014.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Millemissen:B&O is at the CES 2014 - receiving massive attention with the WiSA products (Immaculate Wireless Sound). There has never been that much focus on B&O before. Good start for 2014. MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Jonathan: Why don't B&O send them a pair each? Simple.. Send a pair of headphones to both of them with a personalised letter from Tue along the lines of 'Dear Serena, I notice you were wearing Beats headphones. I decided to send you a pair of our headphones as I believe you will prefer the sound of Bang & Olufsen. Good luck at the Australian Open...'
Generally, it needs more than a freebie to get a premier name to push a brand. Of course, some stars pick their own products, but generally brands pay big money for stars to be seen wearing and using their products. You'd be surprised - they get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, get flown to various brand events and much more. It's sadly not a simple case of sending a pair of headphones and hoping they'll be on display at the Australian Open.
It probably would be worthwhile B&O trying to get some worldwide 'brand ambassadors' (the name of these stars who are paid to promote the products - think Breitling, as an example - a long list here http://forums.watchuseek.com/f15/breitling-celebs-67946.html), but it's an expensive game and I'm not entirely sure it's the sort of marketing idea you see from Danish/Scandinavian companies? They have....certain principles.
What about this?
http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/kanye-west-shows-off-bang-and-olufsen-serenata-phone
I doubt B&O paid for this.....
Further to the tennis example:
last year at the Australian Open, Redfoo of LMFAO fame featured very prominently due to his association with Victoria Azarenka. He was dancing on camera, interviewed a lot, shown supporting Victoria. Why not pay him to give players the headphones? He's in the 'music' industry, he has access to the player's areas, he's got a big personality...
Targeted marketing can be very successful. The above is just an example, I'm sure B&O's marketing department could figure out other ways to garner brand exposure..
Getting momentum is key with brand placement in my opinion.
Start by giving headphones to Premier League Footballers. They're always in the newspapers, TV has them walking off coaches and into away grounds - most of them wearing headphones. The kids will want to know what they are, they'll talk about them online, they'll use social networks to talk about them. Follow this up with some cool but unsigned bands, or up and coming bands wearing them round their necks in photo shoots.
Thats a start.
Then, once they've caused a buzz with the kids the bigger names will sit up and take note. If the kids think they're cool, the stars naturally all want to be seen as cool (that's for their own marketing image of course!) so they'll also want to be associated. Then, getting them to wear B&O headphones won't cost the earth.
It's a fact that with the really big names companies pay for what you may perceive as something they chose themselves, but like any really famous person they're a money making machine. It's only when an artist or personality has so much money they no longer care that they can afford to make their own decisions and think less about revenues from sponsorship and advertising.
So, target the kids first... The adults will follow. How well would it influence a parents purchasing decision if their children said "oh my god Mum/Dad - if we had a Bang & Olufsen TV or Hi Fi, that would be like SO COOL !!!"..... How many parents, admit it or not, like to be seen as pretty cool by their kids?
You can start small, start cheap. An avalanche can start as a snowball. Fact.
Right now B&O is 'using' Paul McCartney (The Living Room Tour/BeoLab18) as 'brand ambassador'.
N.B. Please don't start a discussion whether this/he is good or bad for B&O!!
It is just an example, that shows that they are doing these things - they (B&O) choose Macca because they think he is (one of) the right person(s) for promoting B&O.
To me, placement without acknowledgment at the moment of display is a waste of money. When the Batman movie came out, I waited for Bruce Wayne to exclaim, "Turn on my Bang & Olufsen TV so I can find out what the Joker is up to". No such luck. I recommend a Super Bowl ad in the US. $4,000,000 for 30 seconds. Heck, at that price, make it a double.
I once worked for a company that paid millions to sponsor an Indy race car so the Tops could entertain customers at races. The name was stuck on one side of the spoiler and they never finished better than 5th in 3 years. Plus, the car was known as the K-Mart Indy Car. It's a discount store in the US. The only people who made money on this were the car owners and marketers.
Jonathan: What about this? http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/kanye-west-shows-off-bang-and-olufsen-serenata-phone I doubt B&O paid for this.....
Given West's reputation for being a loud mouthed ass I'm not sure B&O would want his endorsement. Even his fans seem to be getting over him.
Making yourself "cool" to the young, or anyone, is an awfully tough thing to do. It seems trends and cool happen spontaneously, nothing will kill that faster than the perception you are trying to make yourself cool. Weird.
As for consistent design language, I see your point, the items by Jensen are different than the Lewis look, and so on. But, I meant consistent in that it's all Danish modern, a pair of Pentas look good with a BS5 or BS9000, a pair of BL18's don't look out of place being used with a Beocenter 9500. like a Saarinen table doesn't look odd with Eames fiberglass shell chairs even though they are different than the Saarinen tulip chairs.
IMO the H6 can be used as a good marketing tool due to the large branding on the sides.
The Asian markets will never do as well as they should because the branding on B&O is too small. I know somebody who is Asian and has a 7.1 B&O surround sound system. His centre channel is a Beolab 7.1, and he has 8000s and 4000s. His comment to me was that he loves his system, but he regrets buying the Beolab 7.1 because it doesn't have 'Bang & Olufsen' branded on the front.
If you go into a Polo Ralph Lauren store, the items that sell the fastest are the t shirts with the biggest logo on them. Same with Armani Exchange, pretty much every item has a prominent label on it. People love to show that they've spent money on a brand.
Look at Louis Vuitton! A luxury brand that is coated in branding, shown off around the world, and copied all over the world. But everyone aspires to have an LV branded item. They grew in leaps and bounds when Paris Hilton wore a heavily branded LV bikini, and when all the Hollywood starlets started carrying their heavily branded handbags.
Jeff: Jonathan: What about this? http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/kanye-west-shows-off-bang-and-olufsen-serenata-phone I doubt B&O paid for this..... Given West's reputation for being a loud mouthed ass I'm not sure B&O would want his endorsement. Even his fans seem to be getting over him. Making yourself "cool" to the young, or anyone, is an awfully tough thing to do. It seems trends and cool happen spontaneously, nothing will kill that faster than the perception you are trying to make yourself cool. Weird. As for consistent design language, I see your point, the items by Jensen are different than the Lewis look, and so on. But, I meant consistent in that it's all Danish modern, a pair of Pentas look good with a BS5 or BS9000, a pair of BL18's don't look out of place being used with a Beocenter 9500. like a Saarinen table doesn't look odd with Eames fiberglass shell chairs even though they are different than the Saarinen tulip chairs.
It was just an example from a few years ago...
Millemissen: It is just an example, that shows that they are doing these things - they (B&O) choose Macca because they think he is (one of) the right person(s) for promoting B&O.
I can't say much on this, but B&O have a relatively small marketing budget - and this was a major example of shooting for the stars and hitting the moon with a budget allowing them to shoot the top branch off a tree!
I did have a chat a few months ago with the head of marketing at B&O whilst at the launch of the BL18, 19 etc in London and he was a great guy who was very up for the challenge. I did get the impression that he was expected to get a million dollars worth of results with a bag of small change. This is why I suggest targeting social networks - and it's the younger generation who use these. They're cheap, or free! All it takes is freebies backed up by some photographs (stage them if necessary, or "place" your photographers) and some clever networking. It's a start.
I think the Paul McCartney relationship was a mistake.
People walk in to B&O stores and see the brand as 'stuffy and old fashioned', and a large photo of Sir Paul in the window confirms this..
Jonathan: I think the Paul McCartney relationship was a mistake. People walk in to B&O stores and see the brand as 'stuffy and old fashioned', and a large photo of Sir Paul in the window confirms this..
That is, of course, personal opinion. I know a few people who thought it was a great idea. He is a music legend if you really think about it... we're talking about The Beatles and their lead singer and songwriter who partnered with another great in the form of Mr Lennon and penned songs which will always be a major part of the history of music.
That said, personally, I think it was an awful idea. The sight of his miserable looking face draped on a 6 foot tall hanging poster in every B&O store puts a real downer on the whole atmosphere.. I respect the man for his achievements - but to me he's not cool, he's not a brand ambassador and he's not a face I want to see when I think about great design and cutting edge technology.
I understand the motivation behind it, and I agree with your opinion.
Put simply, B&O needs to bring their marketing to this century. The Paul McCartney idea is an old fashioned marketing concept.
9-LEE:That is, of course, personal opinion. I know a few people who thought it was a great idea. He is a music legend if you really think about it... we're talking about The Beatles and their lead singer and songwriter who partnered with another great in the form of Mr Lennon and penned songs which will always be a major part of the history of music. That said, personally, I think it was an awful idea. The sight of his miserable looking face draped on a 6 foot tall hanging poster in every B&O store puts a real downer on the whole atmosphere.. I respect the man for his achievements - but to me he's not cool, he's not a brand ambassador and he's not a face I want to see when I think about great design and cutting edge technology. Lee
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Jonathan: If you go into a Polo Ralph Lauren store, the items that sell the fastest are the t shirts with the biggest logo on them. Same with Armani Exchange, pretty much every item has a prominent label on it. People love to show that they've spent money on a brand.
Did you see that programme on British TV the other day where they had some Ralph Lauren polos without logos and asked people how much they'd pay for them. 'Around £15' was the response. They asked the same question about identical polos, this time with the Ralph Lauren logo, and people said 'around £45', simply because there was a logo/brand on the polo. Ok, they are more than £45, but it shows how a brand/logo can affect an opinion about the quality of an item, even though it's the same darned item!
There can't be just one marketing strategy.
Macca is/was one of them (as part of 'the Living Room Tour'), being present in social networks and showing the stuff on events like the CES or teaming wirh Miya Ando others....
I'm sure we may all have different views of what is best, and of how the money is spend best, but - being no expert and surely not as clever as some of you guys - I have a certain confidence in what they are doing at the moment in Struer.
I see B&O being more present than ever - and I think that will increase in 2014.
Greetings Millemissen
we tend to forget there is more to design than designing.
Hi all
I am not sure about B&o in 2014 but the trend seems to be down with stores closing and even this forum is very quiet these days.
I feel B and O are pricing themselves out of the market, when I first bought a tv it was around six times the price of a alternative brand in a local shop. Now they are about ten times the price with only a center speaker, back then ML sold it for me I wanted nothing other than multiroom av.
Now everything seems to be stand alone or there is not quite enough info about NL for people to buy into it.
I have a BV7 MK4 and I love it and I love the lab 9's I have connected to it, if I wanted to upgrade the TV it would cost a few thousand pounds and then I would loose the SD dist to my bedroom TV. I could make it work for more thousands of pounds using HDMI matrix and other stuff but to be honest why spend 5 plus thousand pounds when that would get me a OLED 55inch TV.
control 4 could automate and become the new ML of the future and there are now hundreds of internet of things decides that are able to link together and use an app.
what is the edge that bang and olufsen offer over everyone else that makes the extra $$$ worth it, I am quite sad but I cannot see what justifies the product anymore.
just my 2 cents not intended to cause an argument.
edit: I would also need to spend more on giving me a 2nd output to my Beemer, upgrading does not look so attractive pound for pound
Eclipse 65V1-32Beosound M5Essence MK2BLI