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Speaker/Amp Pairing

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Piaf
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Piaf Posted: Sat, Jan 18 2014 10:46 PM

Speaker choices, should be fun, but in my case isn’t.

 

My Beomaster 4500 was done in by powering three sets of inefficient speakers, BUT it didn’t succumb until I matched it with the MC 120.2 speakers alone, which fried the amplifier chip, among other things.

 

When the BM 4500 comes back it gets an easy start powering a pair of S-45.2 speakers. No question there, a good match and neither speaker nor amplifier will suffer as a result. On to a good start.

 

That’s the no-brainer. However when the Beomaster 2400 comes back it is decision time. It kind of….. sort of makes sense to leave the BM 4500 with the S-45.2 speakers, but what do I do with the BM 2400?

 

I have available a pair of S-75 speakers, MC-120.2 speakers, and a Frankenstein cobbled together pair of Fisher XP-77’s from my teenage years.

 

A lot depends on if I am able to follow through and have the BM 4400 rebuild as well. That would open up the space in the dining room for the BM 2400 and I’d go with the S-75’s alone, leaving the MC-120.2 as decoration.

 

So moving forward in time, all three amplifiers are rebuilt AND the crossover network in the MC-120.2 speakers re-capped, along with the failed overload switches by-passed. Hopefully those changes will keep these MC-120.2 speakers from continuing to be amp killers.

 

My feeling is to retire both the Fishers and the MC-120.2 speakers, match the BM 4500 with the S-45.2 speakers, the BM 2400 with the S-75 speakers, and find something appropriate for the rebuilt BM4400.

 

What do you guys think? Can I make do with what I have and if so which amp with which speakers? If not, did I pair them right, the BM4500/S-45.2 and BM2400/S-75 and what should I be looking for in regard to the rebuilt BM4400?

 

Jeff

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Søren Mexico
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I have been using my P45s with my BM 4400, recommend them, but as you have 2 pair of S 75s why not use the second pair for the BM 4400

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Sun, Jan 19 2014 1:32 AM

Søren Mexico:

I have been using my P45s with my BM 4400, recommend them, but as you have 2 pair of S 75s why not use the second pair for the BM 4400

Hello Søren,

 

Wow, you certainly keep track of things, colour me impressed.

 

Yes, that is correct, I have two pair of S-75 speakers (love them both!) however I am using one of them with my BeoCenter 9000, which appears to be a happy combination.

 

I am currently using both my other pair of S-75’s and the MC 120.2 speakers in conjunction with the Beomaster 4400….. a rather pleasant combination. The S-75’s makeup for the MC-120.2 woeful lack of well everything, except top end, where they meagerly managed to add a touch of spice to the mix.

 

I will only have a problem (if you could call it that) when I have all three amps working at the same time, then I have to choose speakers.

 

I may still change my mind, but I doubt it….. however the BM 4500 is on average a $300 amp not rebuilt. While the BM 2400 is a best a $150 amp not rebuilt. I just spent about $350 with shipping on the BM 4500 which makes economic sense, however Benny wants (estimate) $300 to rebuild the BM 2400, with shipping that makes the cost about $400.

 

That, my friend, doesn’t make good sense.

 

Actually you are the perfect person to ask as you have said you BM 2400 is your favourite amp….. is it still with the BM 4400 on hand? If it is I will definitely rebuild mine, from your recommendation and if for no other reason than because this amp has been through hell and back….. more than once and still hangs in their: an amazing survivor.

 

That said, if I don’t rebuild it, I gotta retire this BM2400 as although it is trying, the little guy is running out of steam. The last time I used it a few more components burnt up and the volume in the left channel wobbled.

 

Jeff

 

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Sun, Jan 19 2014 2:27 AM

Søren Mexico:

I have been using my P45s with my BM 4400, recommend them, but as you have 2 pair of S 75s why not use the second pair for the BM 4400

Hey Søren,

 

Since I asked you about speakers, hopefully you’ll forgive a speaker question; do you really feel the P-45 speaker is a good match for the BM 4400? I mean the BM 400 is rated conservatively at 75 watts per channel while the P-45’s are well rated at 45 watts.

 

Just asking my friend. If you like the pairing, so be it. I was just thinking something a bit more robust would be a bit more appropriate.

 

Jeff

 

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Søren Mexico
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From sound and power my BM 4400 is the best , my BM 2400 is my favorite from sound and design (sound different but as good as the BM 4400, also depending on speakers connected) and the 2400 was one of the first I really refurbished, so I am sentimental about that one.

Repairing your BM 2400 does not make sense, from a economical point of view, but if you buy one from the Bay, you will run into the same problem, caps, lamps and trimmers at least will have to be changed, and if you dont do it yourself, again you will have a repair bill.

So if you want to keep or have a 2400, you are into money one way or the other. From a collector point of view you must have a flat of this type, and then go looking for a BM 900, 901 or 1000, and then find a tube radio.

As for speakers, I can only talk about the speakers I have here, and what my ears tells me, ambient and placement are also big factors. One also tend to get used to the sound, listening for longer time to one set of speakers.

But, yes I love my BM 2400 Cool

 

 

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Piaf
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Piaf replied on Sun, Jan 19 2014 3:04 AM

Søren Mexico:

From sound and power my BM 4400 is the best , my BM 2400 is my favorite from sound and design (sound different but as good as the BM 4400, also depending on speakers connected) and the 2400 was one of the first I really refurbished, so I am sentimental about that one.

Repairing your BM 2400 does not make sense, from a economical point of view, but if you buy one from the Bay, you will run into the same problem, caps, lamps and trimmers at least will have to be changed, and if you dont do it yourself, again you will have a repair bill.

So if you want to keep or have a 2400, you are into money one way or the other. From a collector point of view you must have a flat of this type, and then go looking for a BM 900, 901 or 1000, and then find a tube radio.

As for speakers, I can only talk about the speakers I have here, and what my ears tells me, ambient and placement are also big factors. One also tend to get used to the sound, listening for longer time to one set of speakers.

But, yes I love my BM 2400 Cool

 

 

Hi Søren,

 

You probably just sealed the fate of my Beomaster 2400, it will be rebuilt. And for three reasons:

 

  1. Your recommendation
  2. Cosmetically it is absolutely FLAWLESS, we are taking perfect here.
  3. I told Benny I would have him repair it, and I don’t like to go back on my word EVER.

 

I also have a Beomaster 1000 that I purchased to replace my BM 2400 when it crooked, but it never did…. only the 1000 more or less did. I thought seriously about having this amp rebuilt too, but it was at the bottom end of the spectrum quality-wise and has meager power.

 

At best it is on the bottom of the list after the BM 4400.

 

Thank you as always for your enlightenment!

 

Jeff

 

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Søren Mexico
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Piaf:
I also have a Beomaster 1000 that I purchased to replace my BM 2400 when it crooked, but it never did…. only the 1000 more or less did. I thought seriously about having this amp rebuilt too, but it was at the bottom end of the spectrum quality-wise and has meager power.

I know you can solder, so I have a suggestion, in May I will pick up a BM 1000 in DK, when I am back lets do our BM 1000 together, before that we purchase caps, lamps and what else Martin may recommend, and then we go together step by step. My 1000 should be working, so if yours dont we have something to compare with. You have to get used to do repairs yourself, it is just too expensive to do it with professionals.

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Sun, Jan 19 2014 6:59 AM

Søren Mexico:

Piaf:
I also have a Beomaster 1000 that I purchased to replace my BM 2400 when it crooked, but it never did…. only the 1000 more or less did. I thought seriously about having this amp rebuilt too, but it was at the bottom end of the spectrum quality-wise and has meager power.

I know you can solder, so I have a suggestion, in May I will pick up a BM 1000 in DK, when I am back lets do our BM 1000 together, before that we purchase caps, lamps and what else Martin may recommend, and then we go together step by step. My 1000 should be working, so if yours dont we have something to compare with. You have to get used to do repairs yourself, it is just too expensive to do it with professionals.

Hi Søren,

 

I don’t know ultimately how this will work, but you are on!

 

The alternative is to toss this BM 1000 in the trash which I find absolutely disgraceful and disrespectful.

 

I purchased this BM 1000 fairly cheap thinking my BM 2400 was on life-support. As you know the “patient” recovered but the replacement didn’t.

 

The Beomaster 1000 still works, but the REAL problem is the FM section which is a disaster.

 

If you could include work on the FM tuner in our cooperative effort I will be most grateful.

 

Win or lose this sounds like fun with you.

 

Søren, you continue to give me more credit than I am due, however I give you my word I will do my best to keep up with you.

 

Tak min meget gode ven

 

Jeff

 

 

 

 

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Søren Mexico
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Piaf:

Søren, you continue to give me more credit than I am due, however I give you my word I will do my best to keep up with you.

 

Tak min meget gode ven

We will go step by step, have fun and get help from the forum, when needed, must be a first on the forum, Dual BM 1000 thread, lets have fun.

 

 

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

DMacri
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DMacri replied on Mon, Jan 20 2014 7:42 PM
A thread I will follow with great interest.

Dom

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BO
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BO replied on Mon, Jan 20 2014 8:18 PM
I also have an BM1000 with faulty FM section so I,ll be interested..

//Bo.
A long list...

Andrew
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Andrew replied on Mon, Jan 20 2014 11:56 PM

Hi Jeff

I'd be inclined to do the following once all units are working;

BM2400 and S45-2 - These two are meant for each other, I find the BM2400 is probably more suited and matched to the S45-2 power wise than it is driving the S75.

BM4400 and S75 - I believe the 4400 was the ultimate B&O amp for the S75 back in the day, I find the S75 present a better image when connected to a slightly more powerful amp than the BM2400, not to say they dont sound nice on the BM2400 but I think you'd be doing them more justice on the BM4400

I would then either use the BC9000 or the BM4500 with the second set of S75 or the MC120, either way around depending upon space restrictions and which system you listen to most. Having heard that you are probably more in love with the S75 than the MC120.2 put them on the system you use most.

Just my thoughts, I'd be trying to pair amps and speakers with components from their era.

Drew

Søren Mexico
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BO:
I also have an BM1000 with faulty FM section so I,ll be interested..

So a triple BM 1000 thread, but not before end of May, when I have mine here

 

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Søren Mexico
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Andrew:

Just my thoughts, I'd be trying to pair amps and speakers with components from their era.

Drew

Andrew has a point there.

 

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Piaf
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Piaf replied on Tue, Jan 21 2014 12:33 AM

BO:
I also have an BM1000 with faulty FM section so I,ll be interested..

Well Since this is Soren and I together, I also have a really bad FM section. Suffice to say I wouldn't be attempting this without the help and expert guidance of Soren.

Jeff

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Tue, Jan 21 2014 12:48 AM

Andrew:

Hi Jeff

I'd be inclined to do the following once all units are working;

BM2400 and S45-2 - These two are meant for each other, I find the BM2400 is probably more suited and matched to the S45-2 power wise than it is driving the S75.

BM4400 and S75 - I believe the 4400 was the ultimate B&O amp for the S75 back in the day, I find the S75 present a better image when connected to a slightly more powerful amp than the BM2400, not to say they dont sound nice on the BM2400 but I think you'd be doing them more justice on the BM4400

I would then either use the BC9000 or the BM4500 with the second set of S75 or the MC120, either way around depending upon space restrictions and which system you listen to most. Having heard that you are probably more in love with the S75 than the MC120.2 put them on the system you use most.

Just my thoughts, I'd be trying to pair amps and speakers with components from their era.

Drew

Hi Drew,

 

I agree and undoubtedly the BM 2400 will be paired (as it is now) with the S-45.2 speakers. However although it was abuse, this tiny amp once powered Linn Isobaric, McIntosh ML-2, and Fisher XL-77’s all at once, and did more than a respectable job, so I have zero doubt it could handle S-75’s with genuine style.

 

I currently have one pair of S-75’s paired with the BeoCenter 9000 and the second pair with the BM 4400. Both amps seem pleased with the set-up.

 

I don’t have a problem until I get all amps repaired, then with the above selections already made I have the MC-120.2 speakers and the Fisher XL-77’s to choose from.

 

I just paid a good deal of money to rebuild my BM 4500 and it was toasted playing the MC 120.2 speakers. Yes, I have re-capped them since, but I am weary of them, especially with this less than robust amp.

 

The Fishers are junk and not in service.

 

So if all stays as it is, I will likely be looking for another pair of speakers.

 

Thank you very much for your input!

 

Jeff

 

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Andrew
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Andrew replied on Tue, Jan 21 2014 12:52 AM

I think its time to sell the MC120 and find a pair of M75/M100's :)

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Tue, Jan 21 2014 4:00 AM

Andrew:

I think its time to sell the MC120 and find a pair of M75/M100's :)

Hi Drew,

 

I came to that conclusion awhile back. The problem is I will ONLY sell them honestly and I believe it will be hard to sell something I believe are handsome pieces of crap.

 

Worse, I first had problems with my “new” Beomaster 4400 playing these speakers, gave up on that combination and the Beomaster 4500 imploded with them.

 

Of course the BM 4400 had a collection of issues from the start, but the association with my initial problem has further coloured my view of these speakers.

 

The M 70 is a bit too much like the S 75 and I have it on good authority you really can’t tell the difference.

 

The M 100 however would be a good choice. We’ll see.

 

Right now I am concentrating on my amplifier repairs.

 

Good suggestions all around, and thank you sir!

 

Jeff

 

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Andrew
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Andrew replied on Tue, Jan 21 2014 4:46 AM

Hi Jeff,

I say the following with all sincerity and not an ounce of disrespect. I dont think your amps that you have wired with three sets of inefficient speakers have fared that well. Burnt resistors and fried output stages in your BM4500 and issues with your BM2400 as previously mentioned (smoking,etc) do point towards these units being stressed beyond their limits.

Running multiple sets of speakers at the same time, depending upon the wiring either causes a drop or gain in resistance, even when using a switch box. It sounds as though the 2400 and 4500 have been driven out of spec and have suffered the consequences with damaged electronics. I would really encourage you to stick to recommended specs, ie 2 sets of 4ohm speakers on a BM1900/2400 at most. 

I have a BM1900 which has the same amp as your BM2400. It has had martins cap kit installed, it has an upgraded rectifier, all suspect resistors and trimmers replaced, all bass/treble/balance pots repaired and all new lamps. Everything operates within spec and it is in almost new condition electronically. It runs the S45-2's easily, it loves them, but it does struggle above half volume (which isn't a lot of output) with the S75's which have totally rebuilt crossovers (Martins cap kit and a few extras).  

The other amp I have used to power my S75's is my Marantz SR7002 which is my living room amp connected to some Australian VAF speakers (danish drivers), its a big home theatre amp with very respectable amounts of power on tap, I have run it in stereo with the S75's - the amp outputs a genuine 140 odd watts to each speaker (I dont ever turn it up this loud as I am aware of the shortcomings in the S75 crossover). I can tell you that the S75 speakers really benefit from the additional power over the 30 odd watts from the BM1900, it opens up the sound and creates a much better sound stage.

If I wasn't addicted to the extra bass of the S75 over the S45.2, I'd continue to run the S45.2 in my Beoroom (a small bedroom I use for analog listening) as they perform better at high volumes due to the amp not running out of steam. I am currently looking for a BM2200 or BM4400 to replace the BM1900 to give me the extra power to get the S75 up there.

So my recommendation is the choices I was talking about above. If you dont  like the MC120 then perhaps advertise them with the option for someone to demo them to see what they think, it might just be personal preference that you dont like them. The sound of the S75's whist not as clinically accurate is quite addictive. If they are electronically ok (assuming the recap was done properly and there are no shorts,etc) then they cant really do any damage to the amp and there would be no reason to sell them. Using my theory though, you might find they get a new lease on life now that your soon to return BM4500 is much more up to the task of giving them the power they want. Some speakers just need a bit more power to open them up.

My earlier reference was to the M75, not the M70. The M75 is a smaller version of the M100 and quite different to the M70 (still 4 driver config but different drivers and crossover). M75 or M100's on your rebuilt (when it happens) BM4400 will have you looking for the nearest dumpster to chuck out the McIntosh monsters as you will have no more need for anything else in your life :) My mate has some M100-2's powered by a chunky Marantz amp (he is new to B&O and I forced him to buy the M100's because I couldn't fit them in my living room) and they are superb, keep an eye out :)

Drew

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Tue, Jan 21 2014 7:56 AM

Andrew:

Hi Jeff,

I say the following with all sincerity and not an ounce of disrespect. I dont think your amps that you have wired with three sets of inefficient speakers have fared that well. Burnt resistors and fried output stages in your BM4500 and issues with your BM2400 as previously mentioned (smoking,etc) do point towards these units being stressed beyond their limits.

Running multiple sets of speakers at the same time, depending upon the wiring either causes a drop or gain in resistance, even when using a switch box. It sounds as though the 2400 and 4500 have been driven out of spec and have suffered the consequences with damaged electronics. I would really encourage you to stick to recommended specs, ie 2 sets of 4ohm speakers on a BM1900/2400 at most. 

I have a BM1900 which has the same amp as your BM2400. It has had martins cap kit installed, it has an upgraded rectifier, all suspect resistors and trimmers replaced, all bass/treble/balance pots repaired and all new lamps. Everything operates within spec and it is in almost new condition electronically. It runs the S45-2's easily, it loves them, but it does struggle above half volume (which isn't a lot of output) with the S75's which have totally rebuilt crossovers (Martins cap kit and a few extras).  

The other amp I have used to power my S75's is my Marantz SR7002 which is my living room amp connected to some Australian VAF speakers (danish drivers), its a big home theatre amp with very respectable amounts of power on tap, I have run it in stereo with the S75's - the amp outputs a genuine 140 odd watts to each speaker (I dont ever turn it up this loud as I am aware of the shortcomings in the S75 crossover). I can tell you that the S75 speakers really benefit from the additional power over the 30 odd watts from the BM1900, it opens up the sound and creates a much better sound stage.

If I wasn't addicted to the extra bass of the S75 over the S45.2, I'd continue to run the S45.2 in my Beoroom (a small bedroom I use for analog listening) as they perform better at high volumes due to the amp not running out of steam. I am currently looking for a BM2200 or BM4400 to replace the BM1900 to give me the extra power to get the S75 up there.

So my recommendation is the choices I was talking about above. If you dont  like the MC120 then perhaps advertise them with the option for someone to demo them to see what they think, it might just be personal preference that you dont like them. The sound of the S75's whist not as clinically accurate is quite addictive. If they are electronically ok (assuming the recap was done properly and there are no shorts,etc) then they cant really do any damage to the amp and there would be no reason to sell them. Using my theory though, you might find they get a new lease on life now that your soon to return BM4500 is much more up to the task of giving them the power they want. Some speakers just need a bit more power to open them up.

My earlier reference was to the M75, not the M70. The M75 is a smaller version of the M100 and quite different to the M70 (still 4 driver config but different drivers and crossover). M75 or M100's on your rebuilt (when it happens) BM4400 will have you looking for the nearest dumpster to chuck out the McIntosh monsters as you will have no more need for anything else in your life :) My mate has some M100-2's powered by a chunky Marantz amp (he is new to B&O and I forced him to buy the M100's because I couldn't fit them in my living room) and they are superb, keep an eye out :)

Drew

Hi Drew,

 

Please accept my apologies; you did indeed say M 75 not M 70.

 

I used my BM 2400 and 4500 with three sets of speakers out of complete lack of understanding. It was a mistake that will NOT be repeated.

 

That said in all fairness my BM 4500 did not smoke or give off burning odors. You may be confusing it and the BM 2400 with my BM4400. The BM 2400 did give off whiffs of burning aroma, and that is why it is slated for the repair bench.

 

Both BM 2400 and BM 4500 were misused, but I have learned from my mistake. I do appreciate your restrained criticism of me….. that we err is human, that we forgive divine. Please do notice that I never attempted to hide my poor judgment, but rather shared it so that hopefully others may learn.

 

One thing I really DO take deep and sharp exception to is your commentary: “you looking for the nearest dumpster to chuck out the McIntosh monsters as you will have no more need for anything else in your life.”

 

That was uncalled for. The McIntosh ML-2 is a superb speaker with incredible presence. The cabinet is dated, but the 42 year old speakers, all 100% original are in a class by themselves.

 

If I had to part with my speakers for whatever reason, the LAST pair I would keep is the McIntosh ML-2’s.

 

Drew, I know that you are a good guy, but I purchased these speakers new, I have not always treated them well (to my discredit), but they served me resolutely in spite of my Reagan-era lack of appreciation and today I see them for what they are: magnificent, unequalled, and remarkable old school speakers.

 

Jeff      

 

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Andrew
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Andrew replied on Tue, Jan 21 2014 11:44 AM

Hi Jeff,

i think perhaps a bit of a cultural misunderstanding here.

My comment didn't relate to the quality of your McIntosh gear, it was more saying that if you got a pair of Beovox M100's or M75 to pair with your Bm4400 you would be so blown away with the sound quality you wouldn't ever need anything else and would 'throw out' everything else in your house as nothing else would appeal :) it's a tongue in cheek remark which is a very Australian thing to do. It's like someone who gets a new microwave and it's so good at cooking food they throw out their stove. Please don't be offended as I am very interested in your posts and sharing our mutual experiences. :)

i have always admired McIntosh amps and would never criticise them.

hope this explains my post.

drew

Peter
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Peter replied on Tue, Jan 21 2014 1:15 PM

And of course if you did buy the M100s and didn't like them, you could always live in them! (Similar British humour!) I confess to never really understanding the problems you have with amps and speakers. In the days when I had almost every combination of 70s speaker and amplifier, I never had a situation where an amplifier by B&O would not drive a set of B&O speakers. The 2400 was pictured in a brochure with a BG4004 and M100s and I have used just such a combination. It feels looser than when used with a 4400 but as long as I didn't turn it to maximum volume, was fine. I have had S120s (the same really as MC120s) and they are still doing sterling service at a friends being driven by a BC9500, which is much the same amplifier as the BM4500. The only problem I have ever had was when I bought a 2400 new with P30s and the 2400 developed a fault where the volume suddenly went to maximum. That fried the P30s and I swapped them for S75s and never looked back!

Peter

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Tue, Jan 21 2014 4:15 PM

Andrew:

Hi Jeff,

i think perhaps a bit of a cultural misunderstanding here.

My comment didn't relate to the quality of your McIntosh gear, it was more saying that if you got a pair of Beovox M100's or M75 to pair with your Bm4400 you would be so blown away with the sound quality you wouldn't ever need anything else and would 'throw out' everything else in your house as nothing else would appeal :) it's a tongue in cheek remark which is a very Australian thing to do. It's like someone who gets a new microwave and it's so good at cooking food they throw out their stove. Please don't be offended as I am very interested in your posts and sharing our mutual experiences. :)

i have always admired McIntosh amps and would never criticise them.

hope this explains my post.

drew

Hi Drew,

 

I knew I was missing something here as you have been so consistently pleasant and ever so helpful.

 

Part of me really would like to try either an M 75, M 100, or M150, but with the really bad experience of the MC 120.2’s I am a bit hesitant. First, because they seldom come up, second because the shipping will be horrendous, and third because what if I just didn’t like them, however unlikely?

 

Anyway, to be absolutely clear, yes Drew, this clears up everything. On my end it appears I was a bit touchy about the ML-2 speakers. I probably could explain this further, but why bother as the misunderstand is cleared up?

 

And thank you very much for doing so! Much appreciated!

 

Jeff

 

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Tue, Jan 21 2014 4:54 PM

Peter:

And of course if you did buy the M100s and didn't like them, you could always live in them! (Similar British humour!) I confess to never really understanding the problems you have with amps and speakers. In the days when I had almost every combination of 70s speaker and amplifier, I never had a situation where an amplifier by B&O would not drive a set of B&O speakers. The 2400 was pictured in a brochure with a BG4004 and M100s and I have used just such a combination. It feels looser than when used with a 4400 but as long as I didn't turn it to maximum volume, was fine. I have had S120s (the same really as MC120s) and they are still doing sterling service at a friends being driven by a BC9500, which is much the same amplifier as the BM4500. The only problem I have ever had was when I bought a 2400 new with P30s and the 2400 developed a fault where the volume suddenly went to maximum. That fried the P30s and I swapped them for S75s and never looked back!

Hi Peter,

 

I haven’t really understood my speaker amp issues either. That I damaged my equipment is not in question, but that I should have instinctly known better, well that is debatable.

 

With my McIntosh 2255 I was running 18 speakers and this was set up by the McIntosh dealer for me. So why should I assume that a B&O amplifier could/shouldn’t run 3? Point in fact there is no reason a layperson should “know” this was not a good idea. We only know it wasn’t a good idea because of what has happened and that is called hindsight.

 

Further when I first ran these speakers with the BM 2400 I noticed that it got very hot and I posted this on BeoWorld. I don’t recall the exact reactions, but the sum thereof, loosely put together was if it sounds OK, it is OK; the BM 2400 is a tough little amplifier. And so it was.

 

I didn’t have problems with either BM 2400 or BM 4500 during the period they were used to power three sets of speakers, as all this occurred in 2007….. and this being 2014, that makes it fully 7 years later. The BM 4500 imploded 2 years ago, but even so it didn’t show any problems for 5 years. The BM 2400 went an additional year.

 

I am no tech but I gotta say the use of three speakers as a “smoking gun” reason for these speakers’ maladies is shaky at best. I therefore think it more accurate and a lot for fair to say the use of three speakers may have hastened the problems, even aggravated them, BUT didn’t cause them.

 

You mention powering a pair of S 120 speakers with a BeoCenter 9500, on paper a woefully inadequate match, but one without problems.

 

I don’t know, but it appears to me that amplifiers eventually wear out and need rebuilding and my time was up. I did use the BM 2400 and 4500 in a fashion that could be described as unwise, but looking back, I don’t see it as all that stupid.

 

I don’t have any problems with any of my speakers other than the MC 120.2’s and that means 2 pair of S 75’s, S 45.2, McIntosh ML-2’s, and Linn Isobarics. With the exception of the magnets being glued in the S-45’s and the ML-2’s being re-foamed, all are original.

 

With the amps being rebuilt, I believe I will be solving my problems one by one.

 

Thank you Peter, for your input and wisdom.  

 

Jeff

 

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Thu, Jan 23 2014 2:54 AM

Peter,

 

You have such a delicious knack with the English language.

 

I loved your saying that “If I tried but didn’t like the M100 speakers, I could always live in them.” Paints quite a picture…. but got me thinking, how big are my Linn Isobaric speakers?

 

So I checked and the M 100 is wider at 39.5cm as compared with the Linn’s 34.3cm, but in all other aspects, smaller than the Linn’s.

 

Then I checked the weight and hold crow the M 100’s weigh 23 kg, BUT the Linn’s weigh an astonishing 43kg or 95 pounds each. (I knew about the weight because with all our gypsy-like moves, even with a HUGE sign on the Linn speakers warning of their weight, the movers without fail drop them in a terrible thud!)

 

No doubt about it the M 100’s are big as compared to the S 75, but at almost half the weight I think I can handle them.

 

All I have to do them is find an excellent pair and the money to pay for them, and I am in business.

 

Thanks for the chuckle!

 

Jeff

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Andrew
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Andrew replied on Thu, Jan 23 2014 3:42 AM

Jeff,

I am waiting to read your review of your repaired BM4500 when it arrives home from its holiday at the workshop.

I am glad you becoming more interested in a pair of M100's, combined with your BM4400 and BG4000 you would have an awesome late 70's setup :)

Now to scour the auction sites, lucky for most people in Europe and North America and Canada, B&O gear is a little more readily available, here in Australia it sells for crazy prices and finding higher quality gear is quite difficult, BC2200 and BC2002's are regularly available by a BM4400 only comes up every now and then.

Drew

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Thu, Jan 23 2014 4:10 AM

Andrew:

Jeff,

I am waiting to read your review of your repaired BM4500 when it arrives home from its holiday at the workshop.

I am glad you becoming more interested in a pair of M100's, combined with your BM4400 and BG4000 you would have an awesome late 70's setup :)

Now to scour the auction sites, lucky for most people in Europe and North America and Canada, B&O gear is a little more readily available, here in Australia it sells for crazy prices and finding higher quality gear is quite difficult, BC2200 and BC2002's are regularly available by a BM4400 only comes up every now and then.

Drew

Hi Drew,

 

I just love your enthusiasm, which is contagious.

 

I have received a lot of conflicting advice, so at this point I listen and then march to my “own drummer.”

 

I have been STRONGLY told that my BM 4500 was not worth repairing, questioning my sanity. And the commentary (private) on my BM 2400 has been well… depressing.

 

Whatever. The BM 4500 had been my favourite amp until it failed and I am truly excited at the prospect of its return. No worries, you will most definitely get the full report on its arrival.

 

My much beleaguered BM 2400 provided an incredible performance today virtually assuring that it will tough it out until I can send it to Benny.

 

So if anyone would like a pair of cosmetically flawless (except the bottoms) MC 120.2 speakers with Martin’s cap kits installed, re-foamed professional, perfect frets…. but still something wrong, make me a offer and I’ll be more than receptive

 

And if anyone has a really nice pair of M 100 speakers, just let me know.

 

Stay tune Drew it should get interesting and real soon! Thanks for your interest!

 

Jeff

 

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Andrew
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Andrew replied on Thu, Jan 23 2014 4:24 AM

Jeff

Remembering AUD and USD were at parity for a while. My BM1900 cost me $150 not working including shipping from Sydney (I am in Melbourne), the cap kit from Martin including shipping was at least $60 and the repair bill was about $120 for fitting of caps,etc. So all up $330 to get it working again. Totally not worth it in terms of dollars spent.

My BG4002 DC motor version which is comestically flawless and came with a rebuilt MMC20EN, original packaging, manuals and stylus box was $700 AUD and it had speed regulation issues and dry joints everywhere.

A set of S45-2's here can sell for about $250

You can buy newer gear which performs perfectly with less hassle for a little more money, but we do it because every piece ends up as a story and that makes the experience we have with them more personal and provides the ultimate joy.

Drew

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Thu, Jan 23 2014 4:56 PM

Andrew:

Jeff

Remembering AUD and USD were at parity for a while. My BM1900 cost me $150 not working including shipping from Sydney (I am in Melbourne), the cap kit from Martin including shipping was at least $60 and the repair bill was about $120 for fitting of caps,etc. So all up $330 to get it working again. Totally not worth it in terms of dollars spent.

My BG4002 DC motor version which is comestically flawless and came with a rebuilt MMC20EN, original packaging, manuals and stylus box was $700 AUD and it had speed regulation issues and dry joints everywhere.

A set of S45-2's here can sell for about $250

You can buy newer gear which performs perfectly with less hassle for a little more money, but we do it because every piece ends up as a story and that makes the experience we have with them more personal and provides the ultimate joy.

Drew

Hi Drew,

I don’t know why exactly, but your last post sent shivers up my spine.

My three 4000 series Beograms all arrived in varying states of damage: the 4004 only slightly, the 4002 badly torn up because the seller didn’t know how to pack it AND Customs Canada thought it was a for real BOMB (NO kidding), and the 4000….. I don’t want to talk about how BAD that was.

Anyway you certainly have gone to a lot of trouble and expense vis-à-vis your Beomaster 1900. My BM 2400 came with the beaten up 4002 as part of the deal, 7 years ago it needed nothing until now.

And what is this dry joints?

However you are absolutely right about our motivation for dealing in antique electronics…. and yes, a story is always involved.

Perfect example of both your points, when I sent my McIntosh 2255 in to the factory for repair I was advised that the work would cost over US$1,000 and as such the company was prepared to offer me a new current model at their cost. That was one heck of a deal, but I bought the amp new, I broke it, so I thought it my responsibility to fix it, so I did.

The McIntosh 2255 arrived NEXT DAY AIR (my God what that most have cost with a 100 pound amp) with a personal note from the president of McIntosh Laboratories saying there was no invoice because in his opinion the amp shouldn’t have broken in the first place.

Now THAT’S a story, repeated so often you’d think I was the PR guy for McIntosh. I have posted this story at least 4 times on this forum, but somehow it seemed perfect to me to re-illustrate your well made points.

Take care.

Jeff

 

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

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