ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Speaker selection is highly subjective.
Typical North American I crave bass, a lot of bass and as such favour my McIntosh ML-2’s above all else. But with the highs, the goliath Macs come up short, and this is where my Linn Isobaric speakers really shine.
Overall I would rate my S 75’s about the best speaker I own for balance, but not clarity, that distinction goes to the S 45’s.
So here is my question, I am looking for a set of speakers for my Beomaster 4400. It has been suggested that I find a pair of M 100’s.
At present I am finding none, but some excellent examples of S 75’s.
So what do you guys think, does the M 100 have anything the S 75 doesn’t and how would the M 100 compare for bass?
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
S75 classicM100 popwant more bass buy MS150 or another brand
Well now, that was succinct and to the point.
Like most people, I enjoy all types of music and choose my music system based on which one will play the capricious choice of the moment.
Based on your comments perhaps another brand is what I should be considering. Fortunately I have the time as it is going to take months before all my equipment is fixed.
Actually Jeff, I think you'd like the sound of the JAMO POWER series of the 1980s.I use two pairs of the POWER 555 myself.They are considered disco boxes but will actually play almost anything you throwat them with quite pleasant results, plenty of bass and all the volume you'd like.I use them for all possible kinds of music, classical, jazz, pop, disco and all the new stuff.They've never let me down, parties included, and they seem a fine match for the B&O amplifiers.The 555s furthermore are extremely easy to drive. 0.8W/96dB/m so with four of them connected tomy BM8000, well... I have some quite understanding neighbours.Even small amplifiers will produce a quite impressive volume.
They are danish too.- And they will also need refoaming to the woofers.Make sure to get some with the original woofers, even if in need of refoaming, - they are specificallyproduced for JAMO and have silly specs.
Their design can be discussed but that's a different story.
Martin
I live in an apartment builing.If I even would play a third of what the M75 can do, the neighbours would call the police. The bass comming from the M75 is the dryest most detail bass sound I have ever heard, even comparing to hugly expensice top of the line Genelecs. that cost like a new car.Jamo Power M555, 0.8Watt 96dB1.6watts 99dB3.2 watts 102 dB6.4 watts 105 dB12.8 Watt 108 dB25,6 Watt 111 dB51.2 Watt 114 dB102,3 Watt 117 dB150 Watt BM 8000 118,5 dB, most likely 120 dB peaksyup, you can blows your ears off with that combo, an actually cool combo Have never heard that speaker, but remember in the 80th that i was so curious, as it was a big bang for the buck at that time.Christian
My re-capped M75 are my precious diamonds.
Dillen: Actually Jeff, I think you'd like the sound of the JAMO POWER series of the 1980s.I use two pairs of the POWER 555 myself.They are considered disco boxes but will actually play almost anything you throwat them with quite pleasant results, plenty of bass and all the volume you'd like.I use them for all possible kinds of music, classical, jazz, pop, disco and all the new stuff.They've never let me down, parties included, and they seem a fine match for the B&O amplifiers.The 555s furthermore are extremely easy to drive. 0.8W/96dB/m so with four of them connected tomy BM8000, well... I have some quite understanding neighbours.Even small amplifiers will produce a quite impressive volume. They are danish too.- And they will also need refoaming to the woofers.Make sure to get some with the original woofers, even if in need of refoaming, - they are specificallyproduced for JAMO and have silly specs. Their design can be discussed but that's a different story. Martin
Hi Martin,
It sounds like you know me…. and of course you do.
Disco, ah yes, guilty as charged, hence the love affair with bass. But as you know I also LOVE classical, pop, show tunes, Spanish Guitar, etc.
I checked out JAMO on eBay and found nothing. Zip. So I checked out several suggested sources which all that the current offerings, all black squares.
I’ll keep researching this suggestion, and thank you.
As mentioned I am in no hurry as my Beomaster 4500 spent 5 days sitting uselessly in Atlanta and then went to Miami. (I wish I had known it was going to Miami as I gladly would have met it and gotten out of this frozen weather.)
I don’t know but on MY map Miami is due south of Atlanta so the BM 4500 is heading in the wrong direction. No wonder the USPS is losing money with that sort of sense of direction. This was said in jest, but in reality, is no laughing matter.
The BM 4500 will replace the BM 2400 while it heads south for a suntan and repair in suburban Atlanta.
I won’t have a speaker issue until I send the BM 4400 in to be rebuilt and it returns.
Thanks for the much appreciated suggestion.
Hi Jeff As a flag flyer for M100's and an owner of S75's, I can tell you the M100's beat the S75's hands down for bass in a mid to large room.
I am someone who always likes to know they have the power 'on tap' if they need it for parties,etc. The real issue here is room size, in my small 3x3m listening room the S75's provide bucket loads of bass and lovely detail, especially in the midrange since being recapped, in my 6x5m living room, they are 'just right'. In the same size room the M100's provide an abundance of bass, you couldn't wish for more (well you could but then you'd only be hearing bass).
So where are you going to put these new beasts? If its a medium, large or small room?
If you are speaking B&O, the S75 will always put a smile on your dial in a small to medium room (which you would know), the M100's will almost blow the walls out of a small room and would be too much - they would take up half the floor space (aussie humour) but in a medium to large room they are very satisfying and you always feel like you have more on tap, plus they have overload protection unlike the S75 which use fire as overload protection (more aussie humour).
I have not experienced but have no doubt the MS150's would provide a similarly pleasing result as would the M75. Issues with the M100's are aging caps and the 4 inch phase link driver (directly atop the woofer) suffers from foam rot, its not a standard foam size so I think most repairers either trim the cone or trim a surround to fit, they are known for being a high quality driver. In one mates set of M100's the driver had been replaced by some AL brand generics which sound fine, my other mate had his M100 phase links refoamed, I cant tell heaps of difference between the two. The M100's have rubber woofer surround so no issues there. I would try for a Mark 2 version as it has some subtle changes such as an overload LED (no mechanical switches to die).
The MS150 suffer from foam rot on the sub and woofer so if they haven't been replaced, that will need looking at. I haven't listened to them but would expect their output to be even more terrifying than the M100's. Issues with the S75 are resistors burning caps due to incorrect assembly of resistors sitting on top of the poly caps and wires (my conclusion), the rubber on the phase link driver goes brittle but seems to hold out ok, woofer solder tags get loose and the tweeters can be a little more sensitive to being overdriven. Construction wise, the S75 are lovely, the M100's are built like a tank with proper fiberglass board for the crossover rather than wooden project board found in the S75. The M100's are a class act. The thing I have noticed about them when driven hard, the sound doesn't 'break up', they seem to hold their integrity across the entire sound stage from low to very high volumes, they dont get muddy at loud volume.
Lots of info :) Drew
Hi Drew,
Lot’s of info indeed…. and much appreciated!
These questions may have been rendered moot by the USPS as it is possible they have lost my Beomaster 4500. If so, I won’t need new speakers. Supposedly the BM 4500 spent 5 days in Atlanta then was trucked (why in God’s name would they do that?) to Miami. Now for those of you keeping score, Miami is in the wrong direction being due south of Atlanta. The BM 4500 has spent a full 3 days in Miami where it is sunny and 81°F. (I wish I was there!!!!)
But let’s remain positive.
You asked about the room size. Well sir we are definitely going to be moving in June, but the question remains where? If it is the currently “planned” move the speakers will be in a rather large dining room with 9’ ceilings. This room is open to the living room, which even with the tasteful columns that partition the room, makes for a big open space.
After reading your lists of issues on either the M 100’s or MS 150’s the ideal thing it to find a pair that have been properly dealt with. After the MS 120.2 speakers debacle, I don’t think I ever want to work on a speaker again! Never.
I was amazingly lucky with my four S 75’s in that the first pair arrived unannounced, one at a time, as a gift from a good friend in California who thought I’d like them. This friend bought them as singles on eBay really, really CHEAP because he just “knew” I’d like them. He was right.
The second pair was found in a dumpster along with my BeoCenter 9000 and the S 45.2 speakers.
In spite of a less than auspicious beginning for any of these speakers I have not had the slightest problem with any of the S 75’s.
That can’t be said of the S 45.2’s as each had a speaker out. Thank God for my friend in California who also sent me a pair of S 45.2’s which were white and butt ugly….. UGLY but I was able to use one of these as a donor speaker…… the other is now a stand for my 8-Track.
Thanks Drew for all the info.
Martin appears to think that I will find the M 100’s insufficient in the bass department, which is always possible. However most Europeans of my acquaintance live in confined spaces: apartments, condominiums, or townhouses and as such a lot of booming bass would be unwelcome at best.
Oddly enough the place we are planning to move is a townhouse and I am beyond concerned that there will be a sound issue.
Back to Martin, I am not certain but I kinda think that I may have overstated my desire for bass a few too many times to Martin, hence his concern. On the other hand I confess that I really did enjoy Saint-Saëns Organ Symphony at a volume that vibrated a souvenir ash tray from the Queen Mary off the ML-2 speaker.
Anyway, thanks again Drew for the information. We’ll take this one step at a time. First I gotta get my BM 4500 back, the rest will fall into place in good time.
Hi Jeff,
I am currently listening to my MC120-2 and they sound gorgeous. Voices are superb and oh that cristalline treble. Go for those.
More seriously, the bass level will depend on your cubic space. Small speakers like the S45 will produce extended bass in small rooms, too much against a wall. I listen to my speakers well away from the back wall when I can.
Even in my 35 square metre lounge they thunder when placed against the wall, not too good actually. Don't buy if you cannot try anyway.
I have the opportunity to purchase four S70 speakers with their tulip stands... I'm thinking.
Jacques
M100s have plenty of bass - it doesn't boom because it is accurate - the MS150s are much the same - lots of detail. The ultimate expression of this is the Beolab 5 which has wonderful detail without booming whilst you are in the room. Be a neighbour though and you may disagree. All of these speakers encourage you to play music loud as it doesn't sound boomy.
Peter
chartz: Hi Jeff, I am currently listening to my MC120-2 and they sound gorgeous. Voices are superb and oh that cristalline treble. Go for those. More seriously, the bass level will depend on your cubic space. Small speakers like the S45 will produce extended bass in small rooms, too much against a wall. I listen to my speakers well away from the back wall when I can. Even in my 35 square metre lounge they thunder when placed against the wall, not too good actually. Don't buy if you cannot try anyway. I have the opportunity to purchase four S70 speakers with their tulip stands... I'm thinking.
Hi Jacques, oh man, that was CRUEL! It is a good thing that we are friends.
I agree placement is everything.
I have my S 45.2 speakers on crummy stands in the master bedroom, as such not all that far from the carpeted floor, BUT at least off it.
The room is an acoustical nightmare in that it must accommodate a huge canopied king-size bed with twin armoires totally out of scale for the room. None the less, in this setting these tiny bookshelf speakers sound marvelous.
The S 75’s don’t seem to care where I place them…. they just sound good. The setting in the living room is far from ideal in that one speaker has a stand the other sits on top of the McIntosh ML-2 speaker….. and oddly enough the lower speaker on the stand sound a bit better than the elevated speakers. Go figure?
In any case the real bottom line is as you said, it is better to try them first before buying….. problematic living on an island that doesn’t favour anything above a pedestrian level.
Peter: M100s have plenty of bass - it doesn't boom because it is accurate - the MS150s are much the same - lots of detail. The ultimate expression of this is the Beolab 5 which has wonderful detail without booming whilst you are in the room. Be a neighbour though and you may disagree. All of these speakers encourage you to play music loud as it doesn't sound boomy.
Hi Peter,
With your broad stereo knowledge and relative proximity to Scotland perhaps you have heard the Linn Isobaric speaker. If so, what did you think of it? If you can comment of those speakers as compared to any of the M-series that will give us both a genuine reference for comparison.
From my view, I paid something like $4,200 for them in 1982, which was an outrageous sum of money back then, and all considered in retrospect, a mistake.
Again from my obvious “North American taste” point of view, these speakers are accurate, do a fine job with a crisp mid-range, the upper end is a bit bright for my taste, but the bass…. it is appalling. Possibly this is what you call accurate, I don’t know. These is a bass sound, as there is from a transistor radio, but feeble in my view.
I have been told relentlessly that these speakers were “best geared to European taste.”
OK, fair enough. However playing the aforementioned Saint-Saëns Organ Symphony, these speakers fail to deliver a “live experience,” certainly nothing as compared to the goliath McIntosh ML-2 speakers with their two 12” woofers.
Now get out a recording of a piano, flute, or violin, and then the Linns are stellar. Better still a Harpsichord which is just mediocre on the ML-2’s. Wanda Landowska alone almost makes me want to take back my comment on these speakers being a mistake, however in concert with the ML-2’s one set of speakers makes up for the others shortcomings. Works for me.
I look forward to your comments on the Linns. (as always!)
I have only heard Isobarics once - I believe it was an active set up using multiple Naim amplifiers and the obligatory Linn Sondek/Ittok. Sounded pretty spectacular to me at the time, but it must have been 30 years ago so I really cannot comment properly. I have always liked Quad ESL speakers though so am not the best man to talk to about bass!However i did have a B&O speaker listening test a couple of years ago, and the M100s certainly outperformed my Pentas for deep accurate bass. Tim Jarman thought they had too much bass - he replaced the capacitors for me - but his room was very small at the time!
Peter: I have only heard Isobarics once - I believe it was an active set up using multiple Naim amplifiers and the obligatory Linn Sondek/Ittok. Sounded pretty spectacular to me at the time, but it must have been 30 years ago so I really cannot comment properly. I have always liked Quad ESL speakers though so am not the best man to talk to about bass!However i did have a B&O speaker listening test a couple of years ago, and the M100s certainly outperformed my Pentas for deep accurate bass. Tim Jarman thought they had too much bass - he replaced the capacitors for me - but his room was very small at the time!
I agree the Linns do have a presence and I can see where someone with taste would appreciate them.
Here is hoping that I will have a reason for trying a pair of M 100’s….. because as of today my Beomaster 4500 after Benny’s repair spent 5 days in Atlanta, Georgia and now 3 full days in Miami, Florida with no weather issues (like Atlanta’s) to affect flights out of Miami. (Its 30°C and sunny!)
Perhaps a bit early to say the USPS lost it, but I am beginning to be concerned. Priority International service is 3 to 5 days, this is day 8. At least the BM 4500 was insured.
And IF the USPS really did lose my BM 4500 you can be certain that I am not going to risk that again and will ship my just barely hanging in there BM 2400 to Benny UPS.
Dear BM4500
I know we've had our differences in the past, please come home.
Love Jeff.
Andrew: Dear BM4500 I know we've had our differences in the past, please come home. Love Jeff.
No differences whatsoever with the BM 4500, until it bit the dust.
I just want it back! Alive and well!
Piaf: No differences whatsoever with the BM 4500, until it bit the dust. I just want it back! Alive and well!
Just like most of us, the 4500 got tired, tired of the owner, not satisfied with the efficiency, send me to a workshop, to bring more, now I am tired and need vacations, three weeks in Miami will do me good. It will get there Jeff.
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Søren Mexico: Piaf: No differences whatsoever with the BM 4500, until it bit the dust. I just want it back! Alive and well! Just like most of us, the 4500 got tired, tired of the owner, not satisfied with the efficiency, send me to a workshop, to bring more, now I am tired and need vacations, three weeks in Miami will do me good. It will get there Jeff.
Hey Søren
Tired of the owner? Yes, perhaps as this amp was driven past its limits. I didn’t know this, but I can now see where it was. That said it didn’t crook under pressure, but under MC 120.2 speakers. That is a fact my friend, NOT an opinion.
Vacation in Miami, not a chance, that’s just crap. The poor thing is merely stuck in a pile of boxes.
With luck Benny’s handiwork will be appreciated….. and by me when the BM 4500 comes home.
Piaf:Perhaps a bit early to say the USPS lost it, but I am beginning to be concerned. Priority International service is 3 to 5 days, this is day 8. At least the BM 4500 was insured.
Just noticed in the news that the south of USA got a couple of cm of snow, which means a nationwide emergency. I'm sure your 4500 will remain safely tucked in the corner of a parcel terminal or a truck stuck on a highway for a few days more.
--mika
tournedos: Piaf:Perhaps a bit early to say the USPS lost it, but I am beginning to be concerned. Priority International service is 3 to 5 days, this is day 8. At least the BM 4500 was insured. Just noticed in the news that the south of USA got a couple of cm of snow, which means a nationwide emergency. I'm sure your 4500 will remain safely tucked in the corner of a parcel terminal or a truck stuck on a highway for a few days more.
Thanks Mika, for the words of encouragement, which are greatly appreciated. A kind word from ANY direction is almost most welcome at my door.
The United States is a big country and what has made the news lately is the Deep South got slammed with an unexpectedly large amount of snow and was utterly unprepared for it. Atlanta in particular saw a huge amount of snow and the city has no snow plows, or so I am told. Then the State, City, and Public Schools all sent everyone home at the same time. Some folks spent over 10 hours sitting in their cars.
I have had a couple of unfortunate experiences with shipping and the common thread is when an item either stops scanning or simply doesn’t move which is pretty much happening here.
When I sent my BM 4500 to Benny it arrived in 3 days. A day in Richmond, British Columbia, a day in San Francisco, and then on to Atlanta, Georgia. This is day 9, with 5 days in Atlanta and 4 days in Miami, Florida.
Thus the BM 4500 missed all the terrible weather and has just sat in the Sunshine State. When it arrived it was 30° C and sunny. Today it is 20° C and rainy, but nothing to interfere with the airlines.
I have never worked for the Post Office, but I do know enough about how things work to know that when the system works, which is generally, all goes without a hitch. However now and then a letter or package gets knocked off to the side where it either suffers damage and or is ignored for a period of time.
Eventually like my Beocord 8004 which was “lost” for 6 WEEKS, they found it just before paying out for the insurance. For the record it was UPS that lost my Beocord and it arrived with the glass panel shattered.
The weather in the South has caused cancelled flights all over the US and that may be having an impact.
Patience is a virtue.
This thread topic was speaker comparison, but the related story of their use or need has bumped the focus a bit.
In regard to my BM 4500, it is not lost; it was trucked from Atlanta to Miami (an unforgivably unfortunate choice via I-95) which took an unbelievable 5 days to accomplish. I for one have driven that route in 1 day, but whatever.
Since then it has resided for 5 more days with US Customs and with them there is nothing outside of Washington DC that will speed things along. Customs will turn my BM 4500 loose when they are good and ready and not before.
Good grief I do hope this is not déjà vu as when Customs Canada mistook my Beogram 4002 for a bomb. I know this because the box was wrapped with yellow tape marked “Suspected bomb” and comments were hand written on the box.
Customs attacked the box and ripped it to pieces…. and did unbelievable damage to the BG 4002. The 4002 is completely restored and I saved the box, makes for a good story.
Once Customs is finished with my BM, this process can continue and then we’ll see if additional speakers are needed.
They would have loved my Beomaster 4400 - the box for that had the name of the first owner - a certain family called Bin Laden. It was part of a consignment for the palace - the chap who sold it to me did the install and this one had been left over so he was given it.
Peter: They would have loved my Beomaster 4400 - the box for that had the name of the first owner - a certain family called Bin Laden. It was part of a consignment for the palace - the chap who sold it to me did the install and this one had been left over so he was given it.
I absolutely cringe at the thought! Good story however!
It seems Customs Canada opened my Beogram 4002 box with a robot which of course was programmed to have zero respect for the contents.
The guy who did the inspection signed off on the box, something to the effect that no bomb or bomb making materials found. Now wasn’t that a needed relief?
I am sure they have a backlog in Miami, but had they simply returned the Beomaster the way it came, if went through Customs in San Francisco in a day.
You can’t tell me there are no flights going from Atlanta (the busiest airport in the US) and San Francisco.
Back to patience.
You guys are not going to believe this.
I went to the USPS site to find my package had been Processed Through the ISC Miami Sort Facility at about 6:00 PM.
I just returned expecting to see my Beomaster 4500 reroute to Vancouver, but SURPRISE, the Processed through Sort Facility had disappeared, and I was back to Arrived at Sort Facility.
What the heck, they needed a second look at 5 days?
Disgruntled in the extreme.
Dillen:Actually Jeff, I think you'd like the sound of the JAMO POWER series of the 1980s.I use two pairs of the POWER 555 myself.
Ah, so I'm not the only one with large black chipboard boxes kicking around then
I've got a pair of Jamo D265 next to my workbench which are usually what I have connected when working on an untested amplifier. They're certainly far from audiophile quality but are pretty bombproof and have been subjected to numerous faults including some fairly hefty DC voltages but never seem to suffer any ill effects as a result. In addition their size has the added benefit that when stood side by side they double up as extra workbench space when needed
Martin.
The Post Office now has again the “Processed through” as the most recent entry. It disappeared for over 3 hours, listing my package as “arrived at sort facility.”
So that I don’t feel the need to question my sanity, I printed out the web page in its “current” form. God only knows what they will put up next. This is beyond ridiculous.
I am sorry to read this.Postal service is not particular good in North America.Have tons of friends in Canada, actually in the city were you live, Victora, where I have been probably 10 times on vacation. So over the years I have myself many bad experiences of the postal service in North America.Here in europe packages can get their way from one door to another in a different country in a couple of days. Other then that , you live in a great country with so many good things :) Hope your B&O things arrive safe !
Hi Christian,
I honestly don’t know what happened with the USPS; they used to be very good. Trucking from Atlanta to Miami is nuts.
However it was the boys and girls of US Customs that keep my Beomaster for an entire week.
It arrived today (Sunday) sent to the Post Office who sent it to Canada Customs, and it has already been returned to the Post Off ice for delivery….. all in one day.
Canada Post says to expect it delivered on the 5th. I don’t get that as this is the 2nd. But I’ll bet you it arrives here tomorrow. All they have to do it put it on the BC Ferry tonight, and 90 minutes later it is here in Victoria.
We’ll see.
Thanks for the kind words about Canada, it is a good country. (Post Office excluded from the compliment.)