ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hi,
So I've got that mint Beogram 5005, really in perfect condition. It works perfectly.
BUT the sound is dull, dull, dull - on both channels.
Rich sent me his spare MMC4 for testing (thanks again ) but even though it sounds much better that the refurbished MMC4 that I sent over to Germany - more bass, nicer overall sound with better tracking ability -treble is still lacking. It is really recessed, as if it went down right after 8 kHz or so. It is not warm, it is boring.
I inspected solders, contacts. I saw nothing.
Jacques
Problem with the RIAA phono preamp? Can you get a hold of a different phono preamp and run it thru that and into an aux in rather than phono in on your receiver?
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff: Problem with the RIAA phono preamp? Can you get a hold of a different phono preamp and run it thru that and into an aux in rather than phono in on your receiver?
Thanks.
Same results with different preamplifiers, unfortunately. Hence my query.
Any ideas then, please?
It's a shame because my otherwise superb Beosystem 5500 is great, but is let down by its turntable. Plugging my Beogram 4000 in its stead makes vinyl sing though, with plenty of energy!
Well, one of the things that can affect a cartridges sound is vertical tracking angle, though usually that's a fairly subtle change. And anyway, the B&O design with integral cartridge/arm design means that's pretty fixed and should be right by design. It's with conventional arms and different cartridges you need a height adjustable arm to set VTA.
The only other thing I could say is the wiring from the cartridge all the way to the DIN connector or RCA plugs. Cartridges are sensitive to things like resistance and capacitance, but unless there's a defect or someone radically changed or mucked about with the tables wiring that shouldn't be it either.
Maybe the arms tracking force gauge is way off? Check it with a stylus force gauge?
Thanks Jeff.
Checked with a gauge. Spot-on.
I checked everything, contacts (golden anyway), wiring, DIN shiny new. The deck is really nice.
Muting switch?
On second tought, cant be switch, unless it is somehow leaky...
R,C or Z related problem? From connecting cable? You could try different cable.
blah-blah and photographs as needed
Orava: On second tought, cant be switch, unless it is somehow leaky... R,C or Z related problem? From connecting cable? You could try different cable.
I get all that (being an electrician) but the cable is the original one, and its capacitance is within normal values.
Perhaps I should try another one indeed, from some scrap unit?
The switch was not muting anything when I got the deck, I had to play it a lot to get it back to its grounding duties.
Could switch then have extra capacitance build......?
Orava: Could switch then have extra capacitance build......?
Mmm... how could that be? Deliberately? When it's open-circuit, there is no contact whatsoever. If anything, extra-capacitance would brighten it up around 8-10 kHz.
I just don't get that one really. Is the MMC4 a dull cartridge after all?
chartz: I just don't get that one really. Is the MMC4 a dull cartridge after all?
Having lived with at least one continuously for at least 24 years, I would say no.
I have an original, bought used, not dull, and a SMMC4 brighter, more like CD sound but not dull
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
So there must be something wrong with my 5005. But what?
Any chance of a recording of this poor sound quality? Preferably a direct recording.
Lee
It crossed my mind. I could do that, yes.
I will do that on Saturday then. Any favourite music?
chartz: It crossed my mind. I could do that, yes. I will do that on Saturday then. Any favourite music?
Its often easier to diagnose a problem if we can hear it... Describing sound issues is very subjective.
Hmm favourite music... now that's got me thinking ;-) A nice bit of classical, perhaps some Rachmaninov? But to be honest you'd probably be better with some pop music... I always find Abbas good for diagnosing excessive Sibilance etc and I know exactly what they sound like on my 5005 with MMC4.
I listen to loads of Axel rebuilds and I cannot distinguish them from the original MMC4's.
I find both types quite comfortable to listen to and I would not want them any brighter.
My BG6000 is fitted with a NOS MMC20CL which is comparable and was very similar to an Axel rebuilt version which I sold to a French Beoworlder who thought it was fabulous.
Regards Graham
I know! I also have a 20CL on my 8000 and an SMMC20EN on my 4000 and the poor 5005 with MMC4 sounds dreadful. It tracks very well though.
chartz: Orava: Could switch then have extra capacitance build......? Mmm... how could that be? Deliberately? When it's open-circuit, there is no contact whatsoever. If anything, extra-capacitance would brighten it up around 8
Mmm... how could that be? Deliberately? When it's open-circuit, there is no contact whatsoever. If anything, extra-capacitance would brighten it up around 8
I mean, if there is capacitive leak to ground, that would ..... "anti-brighten" sound?
My experience is just the opposite actually. I can't measure anything conclusive, anyway. Capacitance is in good order.
Ok , just a tough
Here you go.
There is a sample of the sound! Not very good at all.
chartz: Here you go. There is a sample of the sound! Not very good at all.
Sounds fine to me. Can hear the high hat cymbal right of center, female vocals sounded fine.
Rich: chartz: Here you go. There is a sample of the sound! Not very good at all. Sounds fine to me. Can hear the high hat cymbal right of center, female vocals sounded fine.
Do I need a hearing aid? What's wrong?
Do I?
I'll listen at home after work again on one of the home systems and comment again.
Thanks for bothering at all Rich!
I compared to the iTunes version - I don't have the CD - and it hurts even more...
Here's another version to compare. Cruel!
That does sound a little flat to me too...
I'll connect the PC upto my Beomaster 5000 and do a side by side comparison with the same record playing on my Beogram5005 and MMC4 and get back to you...
Hi Lee,
I did the right choice then!
Thanks!
The first version is the one that I am used to.
The second version is something that I would prefer but I have no idea how to achieve it. Much better, full of life and vitality. Sounds like a different mix or pressing!
Whatever produced it , I want one!!!
joeyboygolf: Whatever produced it , I want one!!!
It is the CD version I managed to borrow.
Sounds fine to me as well.
The second version - aside from being much louder, which always kills a direct comparison - sounds to me to be the remix you will find on Spotify for example. I hate it, it's totally in your face and void of nuances.
--mika
chartz: joeyboygolf: Whatever produced it , I want one!!! It is the CD version I managed to borrow.
Boy, I really wish you hadn't posted that already. I was going to say "loudness wars."
I think they sound essentially the same if you level-match.
tournedos: Rich: chartz: Here you go. There is a sample of the sound! Not very good at all. Sounds fine to me. Can hear the high hat cymbal right of center, female vocals sounded fine. Sounds fine to me as well. The second version - aside from being much louder, which always kills a direct comparison - sounds to me to be the remix you will find on Spotify for example. I hate it, it's totally in your face and void of nuances.
Which begs the question, do I want to invest in the new versions of Led Zeppelin's first 3 albums?
If it really does sound fine, well I'll have my ears checked! But thanks for the comments.
Seriously, the same record on my Beogram 4000 sounds amazingly better. It is much closer to the second version, minus bass slam.
My LP is an original French first pressing.
It certainly doesn't sound like my CD version, which sounds dull and flat by comparison.
Mine is an early CD purchased when they were first issued and sounds almost identical to my vinyl version, also early.
I run the first version through my computer to Onkyo to Bvox 3702, running flat, bass on "0", treble "0", it do sound dull, raising bass 10 % and treble 30% I get the sound I like, cymbals coming out clear and bass OK, the second version is awful.
On the Onkyo I can switch between different sound modes, In "Direct" (sound in is the same as sound out, no modifying) its dull, changing to "Stereo mode" bass and treble "0", its dull, with bass 10% and treble 30% it OK
Well my hearing is shot after many years in noisy environments. Normally I run my TX2, MMC4, in this setup and in "stereo" and bass 5% treble 10%
chartz:Seriously, the same record on my Beogram 4000 sounds amazingly better.
If you can compare them directly, then I'm not questioning that. I was just saying that I don't find anything obviously wrong in the first sample. It's really hard to say because sadly I don't have the original recording of "Rumours" on any media, but I do know that it was ruined some time in the later releases.
So I don't have a direct reference to judge your first sample (the second is useless for that). But anyone used to the second version will think the original release sounds dull, even when everything is fine!
Hi Søren,
So we agree.
I don't get that with the Beogram 4000 at all. This LP sounds superb on it, not so on the MMC4-equiped 5005.
The 30 percent treble increase sounds about right.
Mika,
Trouble is, any LP I care to play is dull-sounding. Not so on my Beogram 4000! Even an old Dual 601 with an old Ortofon FF15 sounds better.
Well, I listened at home on a "good stereo" and I haven't changed my opinion: the first recording sounds fine to me.
I feel like I'm in some kind of "Emperor's New Clothes" fairy tale, or the classic Harvard University peer pressure experiments in the 1950's.