ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
From a Finnish research website.
Disturbing!
http://www.lucify.com/the-flow-towards-europe/
Graham
No way - unless you/somebody want/s us to stay wikings 😸
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
This is going to fundamentally change your societies in ways you will not enjoy. To put it another way, this will accomplish with immigration, encouraged and enabled by your own governments, what the Moors and Ottoman Turks failed to accomplish with violence. No advanced society survives prosperity, they all commit suicide.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
World has allways been a subject of change. I would say that it is a bit arrogant to say that our time and culture is thr one and best and should not change anymore. In other words "stop the history" it means. If we cant accsept chance and adapt, sure we are doomed and soon gone.
blah-blah and photographs as needed
Change will always meet resistance, wether its for the better or for the worse. As human beings we are naturally drawn to stability and what we know, on the whole. We're animals and we want to be in a 'safe environment' to keep ourselves alive and not get eaten by dinosaurs or killed by another tribe. Our psyche is deep rooted and times have changed faster than our brains can handle it, from an evolutionary perspective.
Do I think mass-migration is a bad thing? Not at all, as long as the people who come to live in your country contribute to it, respect its laws and become decent members of that country's society. That's not too much to ask is it?
As for culture and tradition, I think that's a great thing and should be celebrated and held on to in every single country. That's one of the reasons I love to travel - to see different cultures, heritage, history and traditions. If the world became one faceless mish-mash of cultures wherever you went that would be the saddest thing to see.
The Romans had so much success because they assimilated. They were accepted, even embraced - because they immediately adopted the lifestyle of where they were. They wore the clothes, ate the food, settled, married - and became accepted citizens of where they lived. Yes, the world has moved on from that - but the basics remain. I cringe when I see British ex-pats in Spain not speaking a word of Spanish, being dismissive of locals, forming little communities, avoiding Spanish taxes wherever they can and generally making absolutely no effort whatsoever apart from with each other. Sad.
Anyway - there's my two pennies worth. I'm sure I'm wrong on some things, right on others - and I'm open to others views. That's what a discussion os all about!
Lee
WOW, perfect post there Lee. Totally agree with you in everyday. Open minded and positive :) I have friends from over 30 countries and it's fantastic - each brings their own qualities and values and style.
I can't disagree with the general sentiments expressed above, but the sudden rate of change and numbers involved are potentially going to overwhelm us.
Apparently one german village of 110 souls has been told to accommodate 750 migrants (reduced from an initial instruction to take 1000).
My first contact to refugees in my life: Just from the beginning with silesian neighbours after their arrival in 1945/46 in West Germany. My first contact to immigrants was with people from Italy and Greece in the Kindergarden.
The issue of refugees becomes a little bit more visible than during the last decades. Nobody can deny that there is a bad mixture of poor government, war crimes, suppression, fanaticism, greed in quite a few countries discouraging people to stay home and starve calmly, be victims and survivors of any crime (no breach of the 10 commandnents of older times or of human rights of modern times ist ommitted). They prefer to change place and look for more acceptable places to live.
My opinion: Despite quite a few problems about assimilation (Who to whom in which way?), inculturation (which culture?), religious beliefs the world in Europe will be better if everybody learns more than one lesson on solidarity, subsidiarity and personality.
Sometimes feeling like Father McKenzie whose sermon doesn't find an audience like all the lonely people in Eleanor Rigby by the Beatles ...
vikinger: Apparently one german village of 110 souls has been told to accommodate 750 migrants (reduced from an initial instruction to take 1000). Graham
You make it sound like the 750 migrants are moving into the houses of the 110 souls.
Never heard of that - and it certainly is not so!
We have a great challenge nowadays - I am sure, that we will can deal with it, if we choose to.
I see much worse 'problems' elsewhere in the world.
The post from Lee sums up very good, what is going on.
We may very well benefit from these changes, if we do things decently.
Let's face the challenge - there is no chance to escape it, anyway.
And after all most of these problems are 'homemade' - even if maybe from a previous generation.
Lets for a little while, forget about the what we see on surface, life styles etc and look a bit further.
The fact that number of refugees has never been this high since WW2 and the world is experiencing highest number of armed conflicts should tell us something that I believe is very important.
I believe that most people would agree that world is changing and if there are individuals, groups or parties who believe that building walls or barbed wires across their borders or even throwing out foreigners would keep them and their lifestyle unchanged, then I'm afraid that they will be disappointed.
I believe that Germany and Sweden are doing the right thing. Their strength doesn't come from unity of culture and beliefs but form their diversity and open mindedness and remember that WW2 was not won by a single nation.
What right do we (Europeans) have to criticise?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Colonisation_territorial_changes_from_15th_to_20th_century.ogv
Returning to the present though, one of the issues (at least in the UK, I don't know whether this was equally the case elsewhere) is that it has been convenient for the politicians and the media to talk about economic migration and asylum as if they are the same thing - they are actually two very separate issues.
Martin.
One might ask the folks at Charlie Hebdo for their opinions as to how well the new immigrants will assimilate.
BeoNut since '75
9 LEE: [...] as long as the people who come to live in your country contribute to it, respect its laws and become decent members of that country's society. That's not too much to ask is it?
[...] as long as the people who come to live in your country contribute to it, respect its laws and become decent members of that country's society. That's not too much to ask is it?
If you switched on the TV and the news you've only seen messages like "Refugees are super, we need all of them. They are all skilled people like doctors, economists, lawyers, engineers! Everybody speaking negative about them is a Nazi!"Meanwhile a little more of the other side seems to see the light of the day and even well known german magazines like "Der Spiegel" are reporting about the upcoming and growing problems. It is simply too much and without support of the other european countries this will end in a disaster.Personally I think that I have an obligation to provide when I'm moving into a new country. I can't emigrate e.g. to Japan and insist on german bureaucracy. ;-)Maybe the benchmark that was used was wrong as there seem to be enough refugees that don't think like the rest of the european world - which is okay in their country but could get problematic in another country. To be open minded is a good thing as long as BOTH sides are this way.I think especially in Germany people seem to be frightened simply because of the high numbers of refugees, they fear what will happen to this country, to the neighbourhoods, to the city, schools... everything. So, this can only work if both sides are willing to work together! :-)
what have you expected ?
11 sep 2001 everybody even little kiddies knew it was an inside job , NOBODY cared
Afghanistan they killed over 1 Million NOOBODY cared, Iraq 3 Millions killed NOBODY cared, Gaza 2 Million refugees due to Israel bombings NOBODY cared, Libya was stable nothing there but they bombed them too NOBODY cared, Syria fake civil war its all about oil and ressources NOBODY cared, Libanon bombed by Israel nobody cared. Now theyre bombing jemen , Nobody cares. BUT NOW everybody CARES because the probles are arrived in front of their doors.
Gatex: what have you expected ? 11 sep 2001 everybody even little kiddies knew it was an inside job , NOBODY cared Afghanistan they killed over 1 Million NOOBODY cared, Iraq 3 Millions killed NOBODY cared, Gaza 2 Million refugees due to Israel bombings NOBODY cared, Libya was stable nothing there but they bombed them too NOBODY cared, Syria fake civil war its all about oil and ressources NOBODY cared, Libanon bombed by Israel nobody cared. Now theyre bombing jemen , Nobody cares. BUT NOW everybody CARES because the probles are arrived in front of their fucking doors.
Afghanistan they killed over 1 Million NOOBODY cared, Iraq 3 Millions killed NOBODY cared, Gaza 2 Million refugees due to Israel bombings NOBODY cared, Libya was stable nothing there but they bombed them too NOBODY cared, Syria fake civil war its all about oil and ressources NOBODY cared, Libanon bombed by Israel nobody cared. Now theyre bombing jemen , Nobody cares. BUT NOW everybody CARES because the probles are arrived in front of their fucking doors.
Just about everything done since 9/11 has been wrong or illegal. Even in the current mess in Syria only the Russians have a legal presence (i.e. Invited by the Syrian government). Unfortunately we all bear the consequences of the idiotic decisions made by the fools we elect.
vikinger: Just about everything done since 9/11 has been wrong or illegal. Even in the current mess in Syria only the Russians have a legal presence (i.e. Invited by the Syrian government). Unfortunately we all bear the consequences of the idiotic decisions made by the fools we elect. Graham
The chaos the West has created in other parts of the World makes me cringe, embarassed, angry and sad.
Iraq - run by a despot but relatively stable. West invade it, topple the leader and decades of chaos and carnage ensue which is worse than it originally was. What do the West do - leave them to it.
Libya - run by a despot but relatively stable. West invade it, topple the leader and repeat above.
Syria - run by a despot but relatively stable - West supports a rebellion against a legitimate Government they don't like, try to topple the leader etc. etc as above.
What do they all have that makes the West interested - OIL (Only It's Limited)
But to the question - what is the European Lifestyle? Is there one? I'm not too sure. The French lifestyle is completely different to the English, the German's completely different to the Italian's. Under threat from what? Itself, immigrants, implosion, financial mismanagement by Governments and individuals living on credit they can't afford.
Is everywhere in a mess? - yes, pretty much so from what I can see but most of it self-induced, or created by those trying to interfere in things they should leave well alone purely out of their own interests.
Dave.
Dave Farr: What do they all have that makes the West interested - OIL
What do they all have that makes the West interested - OIL
Behold, the Elephant in the room!!
In the Dark and Middle ages crusading against the Middle East was in the name of Christianity..... Sorry, Gold and Plunder to take home.
In modern times it's all in the name of Democracy...... Sorry, Oil.
The only shred of justification to poke our noses in would be human rights issues of the Governments against their own people, which is, conveniently, the justification used by the West.
Lesson for Arab countries staring them in the face? Don't give other countries any excuse to get involved in your affairs. Simple. Treat your people properly, conduct yourselves fairly - and watch the countries who want your oil have to pay fair prices for it.
I don't support the East, or the West - and I'm not vocal on either issue when asked, but common sense could and should be the first thing on any world leaders mind when running a country. Sadly, many of them are greedy, self serving, plain mad, or puppets.
What future do I see for the World? A difficult one, but it'll work out. It always does. We're humans, we're survivors.
9 LEE:In modern times it's all in the name of Democracy
Correct Lee. And what gives us democratised societies the rite to impose it on other cultures who pre-date ours? In all honesty, some cultures do not embrace democracy, don't need it, don't want it. In fairness, some elements of communism have it right but even communism has been corrupted by the few in power at the top and the Oligarchs - who have actually ditched communism and heavily embraced capitalisation with both hands to gain as much as they can for themselves. Power leads to greed, selfishness, self-centredness and a host of other evils, whether a Democrat or a communist.
We are already in a difficult place. East isn't meeting West any more, if anything we are back to a proxy Cold-War with power mad Putin. The West is really weak at the moment with no agreement on how to handle so many serious issues - Syria, migration, Putin, Crimea/Ukraine, dealing with the other problems we've caused around the world to inspire the so called Islamic State. Talking of which as we are now onto intollerance - where in the Koran does it say it's OK to execute people arbitrarily, rape women (and men), sacrifice children to kill others, destroy history? Surely any religion/faith should embrace tolerance and peace.
Gone way off Europe now but it's a good conversation!
I read that Lesbos has tens of thousands of life jackets abandoned on the island and they are not sure how to dispose of them..... the question that came into my mind is who sold all of these ?
we tend to forget there is more to design than designing.
Dave Farr:We are already in a difficult place. East isn't meeting West any more, if anything we are back to a proxy Cold-War with power mad Putin.
After the break-up of the Soviet Union the West agreed not to recruit the former soviet states into Nato. We quickly went back on our word and surrounded Russia with troops and missile systems ......far worse than the Cuba reverse situation that was not tolerated by the USA. Putin has been quite restrained really. And contrary to the popular press, Ukraine saw a legitimate government (aligned with Russia) overthrown, and the east of the country resisting the take-over. Crimea, historically part of Russia, voted to return. Crimea was only part of Ukraine thanks to an administrative arrangement by Kruschev who could never have foreseen the break-up of the Soviet Union.
I remember how we all thought things were going to change for the better after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the break-up of the USSR. It hasn't worked out that way, and mostly because of our western governments and overseas interference.
Next up....... USA in conflict with China (the manufacturing partner of the West) over some reclaimed sandbanks in the South China Sea.
vikinger:After the break-up of the Soviet Union the West agreed not to recruit the former soviet states into Nato. We quickly went back on our word and surrounded Russia with troops and missile systems ......
What! Politicians and World leaders didn't do what they agreed or promised to do? I'm flabbergasted!
Ukraine saw a 'legitimate' government (with a crooked leader worth billions and living in luxury in anoppulent house, gardens, private zoo and golf course with virtually no income!) overthrown from within by a people's revolt (as in Syria). That's a bit different to the West imposing changes on Eastern countries for their own ends.
Not convinced about Putin's restraint - sending in his troops and arms to rebels despite international agreements for a ceasefire and annexing Crimea, which despite how it was acquired as Ukrainian territory was legitimate and internationally recognised. The fact that Kruschev was apparently drunk out of his skull when he gave it away is beside the point. Yes, the West helped foment the uprising to have a dig at Russia which again has spectacularly backfired as once Putin got away with that, he has now gone into Syria (at the request of a supposed legitimate Government that barrel bombs it's own people).
It's a crazy, mixed up World.
Several years ago, I had a theory about strife torn areas and the country names - they nearly all started with the letter 'I'. E.g. Ireland, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, India etc. I proposed changing their names to something more peaceful and to ban countries starting with an 'I' but NATO, and especially the Itallians and so on wouldn't have it.
The South China Sea could be brewing for some trouble.
Mark: I read that Lesbos has tens of thousands of life jackets abandoned on the island and they are not sure how to dispose of them..... the question that came into my mind is who sold all of these ?
An Italian friend tells me some Greek and Italian fishermen are finding outboard motors from the rubber boats more lucrative than fish.
Beo Century ,Beoplay V1, Beocenter 6, Ex-Beolit 12, Beotime , A8. Beolit 15 , Form 2i , Beolab 2000, Beoplay A3.Beosound 1
sia:I believe that Germany and Sweden are doing the right thing. Their strength doesn't come from unity of culture and beliefs but form their diversity and open mindedness and remember that WW2 was not won by a single nation.
On the UK news this morning..... Sweden says it is full and can't take any more. It now wants to send people on to other countries.
Every refugee deserves to be given a Devialet!
Jeff: Every refugee deserves to be given a Devialet!
Good one Jeff.
The Devialet, no matter how good it might be, is certainly a lifestyle threat!
vikinger: Jeff: Every refugee deserves to be given a Devialet! Good one Jeff. The Devialet, no matter how good it might be, is certainly a lifestyle threat! Graham
I thought the Devialet was only vapourware by a young design student. Do they actually make this Terry Gilliamesque apparatus with which to decorate the planet?
I'm honestly split on this one. I'm an American who spent three years in Iraq and now lives in Germany since 2009. I have experienced this crises from three different perspectives.
Our stupidity and hubris broke Iraq. But I suspect the Sunni Moslem Middle East would have broken itself, given enough time. Pressure from globalism on the one side, and the loss of backing from a cold-war benefactor on the other has made most of these countries ticking time bombs.
I was in Iraq from 2006 through 2008, both pre- and post "surge". What we did was used a temporary mutuality of interest with the Sunni tribes to buy time for a political solution. But the American administration at the time only understood tactics, not political solutions or strategic thinking. So we "kicked the can down the road". The following administration had even less interest in a political solution and continued on the trajectory set by the GWB administration.
About 1.5 million Moslems are expected to arrive in Germany this year, apply for asylum and possibly resettle permanently. On the one hand, I think people have a fundamental right to better their lives. OTOH, when the educated people leave Iraq, Syria, etc. who will remain? Only the combatants. How will we ever find political solutions to these problems if the population that could force a solution leaves en masse? Taking in all comers may be humane for those arriving, but it doesn't address the underlying cause of instability and ensures that more people will die in these wars. A political solution requires a population, because only the people can tell the combatants to lay down their arms. The notion from some elites here that Germany needs skilled doctors and engineers is self- serving and utopian. Most arrivals cannot be integrated into the German economy and will likely fall into the growing moslem parallel societies that are forming on the outskirts of most major industrial cities. The educated Syrians, or Iraqis will probably choose a different country where the wages are better, and where they have fewer bureaucratic hurdles to get their qualifications recognized.
Germany once was a country of law and order. We paid taxes and the German government provided order and security. By allowing unlimited immigration, the government is changing the social contract without a mandate from the people. The future is unpredictable and a lot of people are legitimately concerned about the masses arriving. If it's 1.5 million this year, how many come here next year? The German elite won't have to compete against new arrivals for apartments, wages, etc. It's easy to help out at the train station in Munich and go back to your million-Euro villa after your shift. Labeling anti-immigrant protesters as "right-wing extremists" or using the "Nazi"-word only makes the situation more extreme and plays into the hands of the right-wing political parties such as the NPD.
The one lesson I left Iraq with is that a government is only viable when it's accepted by its population as legitimate. Iraqi unraveled because the Sunnis and Kurds would never accept a Shiite government as their own. The Shiites OTOH would never accept the Sunnis or Kurds as equal citizens. Since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, the Middle East has always had a legitimacy in governance problem.
By changing the social contract in Germany without a clear mandate from the people, Mrs. Merkel is betting the fragile legitimacy of the German Government on a positive outcome. In this regard, Mrs. Merkel is the one who is changing Germany more than the million or so new arrivals. I don't want to live in a Germany with a legitimacy-of-governance problem.
Sorry for the long post that has nothing to do with B&O.
Brian: ......I don't want to live in a Germany with a legitimacy-of-governance problem.
......I don't want to live in a Germany with a legitimacy-of-governance problem.
Allow me the question:
where would you want to live instead, then?
Right now there are more people on the run from wars then after the WWII.So it is my opinion that we actually are in a world war right now.If the numbers of wars have reached its peak and will start decreasing back to stabilization, we dont know. Right now we have an extrea amount from Syria comming.My worry is if the war in Syria reach the camptal Damaskus, same thing will happen with Syra as with Iraq, collapsed statestystem, with looting destruction, mass mureder of christian people aso aso.If that happens I believe the fundament for rebuilding a consitution in Syira, is gone, and we will have even more refugees from Syria.Lets hope for stabilization
My re-capped M75 are my precious diamonds.
Brian:Sorry for the long post that has nothing to do with B&O.
Brian.The first thing that happened after Saddam was removed, was that all christian people was massmurded.I remember at the time I was on the subway in Stockholm and had a dialogue with a iraq family.mum, dad and two children. they explained that they refugeed to Sweden because they were christians.I asked them if they had any contact with their families, in Iraq.their answer was that "no, all are dead", all christian people was massmurdered, and that was one year after USA intervened in Iraq.So my opinion is that no matter dictator, in middle east countries, things are not black and white.Saddam made shia, sunnies and christian live in peace, even though the horrible dictator.USA intervened and the result was mess, totally mess.Syria, USA armed ISIS and conciously let it grow in a proxy war in hope that ISIS would take down Assad., result with weak dicator is totally mess. now it is religios islamic war there with 21 islamic groups fighting with and against each other.If Jihad will reach Damaskus, it is just a matter of time before the christian population will be murered.So nomatter if we in west dont like certain dictators from our cultural point of view, to go on with military force eaither physical or arm certain groups you de-stabilize a geographic area, with consecquences that we in west have no clue of, for the single reason that we dont live there, we dont know the life there.I do think that we should learn from East Timor, Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, that what ever USA did in the east, actually didnt work, it created more mess.Its sad that we havent learned yet, when we should have learned by our mistakes way earlier.I say we, because so many Europan countries passivly supported USAs actionsWest need to re-think things and find other ways.UN is not working.So as long as wars are created, or consiosly accellerated in the middle east, Europe will continuie to be invaded of people with trashed souls, lives, damaged hearts.All the people that run to Europe now are human people with hearts and souls, but they come with dirt. Dirt from mess. So all dirt ends up in Europe now.Of course Europe will take care of the people, but the cost of their dirt...that is HUGE cost.South Arabia, a shitty country that got their fist law system, constitution 1992, have 3 million air conditioned tents, that are designed for people on their holy walk to Mekka, they are are not taking in ONE SINGLE REFUGEE in their tents.Europe is now the worlds trash can.Who should pay the bill ?The countries that activly signed up for unleagal military interventions against international law ?, and how do you balance that with those countries responsibility that either activly or passivly supported it ?...Europe?.....
Chistian, islamic, no matter, religion kills. Most of victims in middle-east are muslims.
Orava:Chistian, islamic, no matter, religion kills. Most of victims in middle-east are muslims. blah-blah and photographs as needed
I agree Orova.decided to mention the christians as they fall into the shadow of all the mess.I have a christian friend from Syria, he lives in Vancouver and he is despratly trying to get his christian family out of Syria as they know it is a matter of time before they will be murdered if Assad is taken out.
Christian Christensen: I agree Orova.decided to mention the christians as they fall into the shadow of all the mess.I have a christian friend from Syria, he lives in Vancouver and he is despratly trying to get his christian family out of Syria as they know it is a matter of time before they will be murdered if Assad is taken out.
Unfortunately in regards to Syria, people are damned with Assad and will also be damned without him. Militias will take over as they have elsewhere once the West has abandoned the people but toppled the supposed despot and cause of all the problems.
To leave the people with him is bad .to take him off with force is 100 times worse, we have seen it done before, we must learn by misteks