ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
for large parts of the younger generation yes....i don't believe thats a controversial view, its fairly visible in the market research stats i have heard talked about on a variety of tech sites.....and makes sense intuitively......personally, i hate watching big movies / dramas / sports on a tablet, and love my big screen, and there's still a market clearly, just talking about the generational shifts....
Sandyb: think its well documented, especially in the US, that the younger generations are much much less likely to buy a TV for their home than previously........
think its well documented, especially in the US, that the younger generations are much much less likely to buy a TV for their home than previously........
I did not have a tv, when I was young.
Why should I - I was way too busy with other things.
So, have things really changed that much as the analysts are trying to tell us?
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
i'm not an expert by any means, but i do follow tech quite a bit, and have worked with plenty of investment analysts.......what has clearly changed is that for generations brought up in the mobile era, they consume the large proportion of their entertainment (and we're not talking FB, Snapchat et al) on laptops, tablets and phones....even for the generation that is leaving college now, their propensity to buy a TV has gone down quite a bit from where it used to be.....i believe the data does show that fairly persuasively, whether hard or soft data........
anyway, i'm not predicting the end of big screens at all, nor will they be a niche product, but the generational stuff going on suggests its unlikely to be a growing market.......remember its been a tough market to make money in........i hope of course B&O remain in the market, a future of Samsung, LG and perhaps one or two others would not be something i look forward to........
This is a bit of a tough one, and a great thread. So far I voted for positive, however here's my brain dump on it all...
With Beoplay behaving like a hero brand, the initial steps of purchase seems to be working (like the ipod worked for Apple), although the price point and whats available for the next step is where they seem to be getting unstuck, as you only have the main uber expensive brand to jump into. Arguably the mid-life-crisis and enlarged bank account market!
I'm in the thought process of staying positive as hopefully what B&O may/should produce as the next step for a user once they've literally bought into the brand has also being thought out. Will they produce more items that behave like art - like the Beosound Shape, or should they be bringing out a mix of killer looking displays without the sound and tuners built in, so you can just plug in an AppleTV/Chromecast to it, and add in whatever of your existing BeoPlay speakers you've bought, AND manage to do that at a price that the market can afford and make them want to purchase? I hope so.
The future of NL is getting there, as are products like the Beosound Moment, needless to say I've gone from wanting to throw it round the room to actually quite liking it now. The thing however that is letting the side down is the UI/CX on the apps that are used to control things.
I know it's growing pains and it may not have been helped with original outsourcing (probably all done in a hurry/on the cheap) but in 20+ years of sitting in the web/app industry I've never been so infuriated as by using the B&O apps.
So moving forward, the apps will get there and consolidate, hopefully a new middle ground of products (like the good old days) may emerge and NL just keeps on expanding...
The last B&O I bought was a BV7 mk 6 and that was after they had stopped making them. I remember thinking this is a great looking set and each time I almost bought it there was software issues here on Beoworld. So I held out until the issues were sorted. I would have jumped on both the BV 7 55 or the BV12 65 as they were (are) stunning tv's but my house shape demands a 40' max tv.
Nothing they have made since has caught my attention. Then perhaps Im just a product of my age group.
I have a lot (way to much) B&O and enjoy all of it . The only thing I "nearly" bought this week recently was a Beosystem 7000 that some bloke down south of the M25 in a costal town was selling.
Why did I not buy it - no where left to put it.
Why did I want to buy it - its a great must have design and it caused a reaction in me when I saw it... & THATS IT !
I think B&O are in a hard place now having to keep up with technology. Back in the days of BS 9000 CD technology was not going any where new so B&O had time to develop the 9000. It still gets played most nights and I can't find a place to hang the white one.
I hope they can find a new direction and succeed as Im sure they still have the mojo.
9 LEE:Good discussion, with some valid points. ........1/ Has TV had its day as a main focal point of the home, 2/ where family gather and watch things together? 3/ Do we actually have time to sit down and watch a movie these days? 4/ Actually, do we even have the attention span to do so?!!So many questions....
BeoNut since '75
I voted negative I'm afraid and my experience only last week highlights why:
For the first time in around 3 years I visited a main B&O store (in Canterbury) and, while there was nothing wrong with the store and the sales guy was very helpful, I questioned myself why I was in there. My conclusion was while I liked just about everything in the store, I didn't actually want anything. The whole price structure was, to me, simply far above what even a keen B&O client would expect. I suspect anyone unfamiliar with the brand would probably feel the same.
The extreme example of this was the Avant 85 and Beolab 90 on display, together total cost around £72k. All beautiful pieces of kit but totally beyond most people's reach. Further down the range the pricing, to me anyway, is so out of touch for most people on the high street, given there is so much choice with the competitors.
Where they go from here I'm afraid I don't have the answer to, but I fear if they keep developing products that appeal to such a limited market given the price they may not survive in their current business image. The reports of bad service and products being launched and then requiring numerous software updates don't help. The Beoplay range is of course doing well and this is good news.
For myself I intend to keep using and enjoying what B&O kit I already have, and maintaining it as and when required.
Graeme.
graemeben: Where they go from here I'm afraid I don't have the answer to, but I fear if they keep developing products that appeal to such a limited market given the price they may not survive in their current business image. The reports of bad service and products being launched and then requiring numerous software updates don't help. The Beoplay range is of course doing well and this is good news.
It is, but as I've asked before, is this enough to sustain a mainline business, particularly one where dealers don't like the BeoPlay range but are forced to stock it? Doesn't bode well if your own stores struggle to promote the items which are selling well for your branded company.
ie. if BeoPlay is the future, B&O will need to re-model it's entire business model as the retail stores will become unsustainable.
Also, I'm the same as you Graeme, but with a different angle. I'd love to get a BV14-55 with the brass frame, but I know that as soon as those OLEDs arrive, the problematic BV14 will be worth 'nothing' as a trade-in. The primary reason I invested in B&O kit was because dealers offered a fair trade-in price for 2-year-old TVs. Not now. Even the speakers have taken a it. I went to trade in my BL19s the other month and was shocked how little I was offered fro these 'iconic' speakers compared to the retail price.
moxxey: graemeben: Where they go from here I'm afraid I don't have the answer to, but I fear if they keep developing products that appeal to such a limited market given the price they may not survive in their current business image. The reports of bad service and products being launched and then requiring numerous software updates don't help. The Beoplay range is of course doing well and this is good news. It is, but as I've asked before, is this enough to sustain a mainline business, particularly one where dealers don't like the BeoPlay range but are forced to stock it? Doesn't bode well if your own stores struggle to promote the items which are selling well for your branded company. ie. if BeoPlay is the future, B&O will need to re-model it's entire business model as the retail stores will become unsustainable. Also, I'm the same as you Graeme, but with a different angle. I'd love to get a BV14-55 with the brass frame, but I know that as soon as those OLEDs arrive, the problematic BV14 will be worth 'nothing' as a trade-in. The primary reason I invested in B&O kit was because dealers offered a fair trade-in price for 2-year-old TVs. Not now. Even the speakers have taken a it. I went to trade in my BL19s the other month and was shocked how little I was offered fro these 'iconic' speakers compared to the retail price.
Not that I know everything about your situation with the trade in, the bigger problem is that the technology is changing way too fast. Just consider all the forms of media people expect to use today. Audiophiles want all analog, turntables, reel to reel, cassettes, 8 track, ect. Then there's the digital crowd, there are digital audiophiles as well, and they prefer formats such as CD, FLACK files, and probably more that I don't know about (Hi-Res audio)... Then you have the TV/Movie people. Some are watching Blu-Ray, while others are streaming YouTube, Netflix, ect... It's almost impossible to cater one system to all these people. Not to mention that in 3 or 5 years, the digital crowd will be chasing something else entirely. I can't imagine any of them spending such massive amounts of money on something that could be outdated in such a short time. As you seem to be running into... How can B&O give such a large percentage back on a few years old model when to the rest of the purchasing public, it's now almost worthless?
I haven't ever owned a B&O TV. I'd be interested in seeing one, but doubt I'd be willing to purchase.
I do think it's a bad idea to push the B&O Play products on the B&O stores... I'm guessing the vast majority of the B&O Play sales are online. (That's how I bought mine). However, I do think the B&O Play products should lead to more interest in the brand. So making products that play off of the B&O Play would be a great start.
Also, while B&O has done some very amazing systems that are all B&O products, there was a time when they would sell some products that work with other brands (My Beogram 1602, my Beogram RX2, and the Beovox S45-2 speakers my Dad bought new), so maybe that's kind of like the B&O Play brand, but maybe there are other ways to promote the B&O Brand while still working with other high end audio and video products? That's just a thought.
Here's a point about pricing. I would love a surround sound processor like the Beosystem 4, however they don't make a separate center channel speaker anymore, and the BS4 is, in my view, very overpriced. It doesn't have to be beautiful, my video gear is in a cabinet, but c'mon now. Video processing and surround for that price? I have a 500 dollar Oppo BR player, which has not only surround processing, but an excellent video engine/up convertor capable of cleaning up video sent to it before passing it to the screen. If the Oppo had PL outputs and an input for taking audio from my BS9000 it'd be all I need. Some of B&Os gear is not badly priced for what it is, some is just insane.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff:Here's a point about pricing. I would love a surround sound processor like the Beosystem 4, however they don't make a separate center channel speaker anymore, and the BS4 is, in my view, very overpriced.
the BS4 box runs on the old software still....thankfully....
The running theme that seems to lead to some of the negativity for B&O seems to be SW and televisions. I think B&O should give up on the "Screens" portion of televisions. Focus on the strengths of sound and integration (which involves software) and re-build up a following based on quality in those respects. Trying to do everything (i.e. televisions, UX, etc) seems not to be winning proposition for the company.
Aren't they sort of doing that with the LG agreement? i.e. get them to build the TV, use their software (largely).......
Sal: The running theme that seems to lead to some of the negativity for B&O seems to be SW and televisions. I think B&O should give up on the "Screens" portion of televisions. Focus on the strengths of sound and integration (which involves software) and re-build up a following based on quality in those respects. Trying to do everything (i.e. televisions, UX, etc) seems not to be winning proposition for the company.
Excellent point! Instead of paying the premium for a B&O screen, I would much rather spend that money on a 4K BeoSystem 5 to handle all of the speaker connections and PUC and also spend the money on more B&O speakers for a Dolby Atmos home theater. I don't want the nightmare of cable management for all of my speaker and AV connections being made directly to a B&O TV. I want to hide all of that mess away in a cabinet.
Teach the unknowing.
Marketing in the US for Beoplay is a must. Bang & Olufsen who? Understand that only a small number of Americans know B&O but can tell you how amazing Bose, Beats and Sonos is....so sad (need $300 M5 like speaker fyi). With a big and correct marketing push on BEOPLAY this would bring in the customers that can afford all of B&O's product but do not know B&O and also the future generations that will be buying the BeoLab/Vision because the headphones and their first Multiroom speaker for their first place made them that life long customer (the new hire for Beoplay was a wonderful, smart and energizing move). There should also be a price drop in the Bang & Olufsen Lab/Vision- only small percentage maybe 5-10% on the current line but also bring in new entry level speakers much like the Horizon concept again to expand B&O's potential customers. All at the same time.
Bang & Olufsen will be be known as the only true choice for a high percentage of potential customers, with a precise and amazing product lineup, great software backed by fresh, smart and fun marketing.
I've proposed it before. Focus on motorised soundbars on hinges or stands onto which you fix a TV by others.
Control the TV using the Beo4 via a PUC in the sound bar.
Graham
BeoNinja: Teach the unknowing. Marketing in the US for Beoplay is a must...
Marketing in the US for Beoplay is a must...
Yes, but then the flipside to this is that marketing in the US is very hard, very costly and often very difficult. Knowing a lot of British brands who have tried it, many have failed (to conquer America). You can sell product over there, but making a big impact is tricky.
The US is also very regionalised. You can spend a lot of money running a promo in Miami, with a famous Miami DJ, but it's very limited to that target audience. People in Texas, a 2-hour flight from Miami, don't care or take any notice.
Remember that BeoPlay's social media isn't limited to Europe. Indeed, they spent two weeks in Palm Springs, promoting from Ace Hotel whilst Coachella was happening - but, again, I bet someone in Arizona barely even noticed this was happening :)
beojeff:Excellent point! Instead of paying the premium for a B&O screen, I would much rather spend that money on a 4K BeoSystem 5 to handle all of the speaker connections and PUC and also spend the money on more B&O speakers for a Dolby Atmos home theater. I don't want the nightmare of cable management for all of my speaker and AV connections being made directly to a B&O TV. I want to hide all of that mess away in a cabinet.
I would go for a solution like this as well👍
Format 0 😀😎
Very true. It will have to be a different marketing strategy- here is the new CEO of Beoplay, John will make this happen!
https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/04/07/956425/0/en/John-Mollanger-joins-Bang-Olufsen-as-CEO-of-B-O-PLAY-a-s.html
I voted "positive" mostly because I figured most here would vote "negative". B&O is navigating extremely difficult market conditions. Fewer people are buying hi-end music systems. TV technology is too changing rapidly to drop big $$$ on a system that will be "old news" in a few years. This was B&O's bread and butter, but times change. Enter BeoPlay. I love my A1. They tried something. I don't think it has "diluted the brand". I can understand why dealers may not like it. I don't know how many of these BeoPlay buyers will move into B&O... but it's more than if there were no BeoPlay.
Like many, there's not much in the B&O portfolio that is of interest to me. Then again, I have a house full of B&O equipment from the 90s/00s that is still running well. I did find a spot for an Essence and BLC, and like these products as well so they have done something right. I don't think I'm in the market for a "Space", but, again, at least they are trying.
Partner with Apple? I doubt Apple would have them. Too expensive? Always has, probably always will be.
Perfect? No. Trying? Yes. I guess that's good enough for me.
Stan
Could not agree more.
StUrrock:You know what, B&O are changing and I must admit that the path that Mr Mantonis started, "BeoPlay", has ensured the brands survival for now.
.
Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
And poor design (moment)
koning:And poor design (moment)
seethroughyou:I have to agree with this. Mantoni if he did one thing right was to expand the Beoplay range. Every audiovisual manufacturer must have a strong entry level product line to survive. Hats of to him for that.
Looking at the other threads on competitors new low cost audio products, and the threads on B&O TV software issues, not to mention the apparent loss of N Radio on some products, B&O is runnng into serious problems.
In my view, BeoPlay get most of the in-house attention these days. The main brand is trying to catch up with falling sales and products that do not work as promised - seems like B&O and software is a recipe for trouble, still. And as pointed out by Lee, tv habits change - a lot of people only watch stuff from youtube, Netflix and hbo: They do not necessarily want to watch it with others, as they me be watching another episode or season or series all together.
Will the new products from B&O (BeoSound Shape, BeoSound Core, BeoVision Eclipse or BeoLab 50) change our mind? I do hope so.
Roger
B&O and software is a recipe for trouble.
is an other software company not an option for B&O??
koning:B&O and software is a recipe for trouble. is an other software company not an option for B&O??
Ferdinand:Beovision Eclipse? Something new on the way?
Duels:New tv.
So says the rumours.
So says the rumour.
Another thing to consider..
Brand awareness for the 'Main Brand' is drying up, which is affecting the price of used products.
Lack of demand -> prices fall.
Prices fall -> Dealers can't do deals because they can't offer enough in part exchange
Dealers don't sell products -> Dealers close
Dealers close -> Brand awareness goes down
Here we go again with the death spiral theory.......
9 LEE: Another thing to consider.. Brand awareness for the 'Main Brand' is drying up, which is affecting the price of used products. Lack of demand -> prices fall. Prices fall -> Dealers can't do deals because they can't offer enough in part exchange Dealers don't sell products -> Dealers close Dealers close -> Brand awareness goes down Here we go again with the death spiral theory.......
Absolutely correct. Demand dictates the price that can be achieved. Just look at the antiques and art markets. The amount of work or craftsmanship that goes into an item has nothing to do with the price in the market. Poor quality art by 'Famous' artists (brand aware) can fetch millions. Superb craftsmanship (i.e. hundreds of hours of exquisite work) in furniture that has gone out of fashion (brown) goes for buttons.
The main B&O products are going out of fashion and the brand awareness is falling away at the same time. Is there any real evidence that Play products are lifting the main brand awareness?