ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I think the HDR thing is vastly overrated. I think many people think it increases the dynamic range of the panel, it doesn't. It does not lower the black level or increase the white level, it's the video equivalent of Ansel Adams' Zone System. It lightens some areas and darkens others to try and fit a higher dynamic range into the range available in the panel. That can be done well, or it can result in a freakishly overblown effect.
The film, assuming the video was sourced from film, had a limited dynamic range to start with, and either film or video, the cinematographer/cameraman had to decide how to expose the video to capture what the director wanted. Trying to go in after the fact and diddle with contrast and brightness levels of different parts of the image has the potential to be an improvement, but also has perhaps a greater potential to be gimmicky looking. I remember the early days of stereo LPs where stereo was new new new. No center image at all, they were mixed with everything panned right or left so by god you'd know you had a stereo!
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
"No center image at all, they were mixed with everything panned right or left so by god you'd know you had a stereo!"
@Jeff. So funny. I remember playing The Beatles' "Hello Goodbye" 45 on my brother's first stereo and freaked out because the vocals were in 1 channel and the strings were in the other. Decades later we know the Beatles catalog was remixed in lightning speed from mono to charge a bit extra.
And first they sold you the mono recording, then the faked stereo one, then a better stereo mix, then a CD of it, then a remastered CD, then a High Def audio download...
Reminds me of the scene in "Men In Black" where he says "This is going to replace the CD, guess I'll have to buy another copy of the White Album."
@Jeff
You forgot the MQA version 🤪
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
......and in between the SACD version!
Jeff: I think the HDR thing is vastly overrated. I think many people think it increases the dynamic range of the panel, it doesn't. It does not lower the black level or increase the white level, it's the video equivalent of Ansel Adams' Zone System. It lightens some areas and darkens others to try and fit a higher dynamic range into the range available in the panel. That can be done well, or it can result in a freakishly overblown effect. The film, assuming the video was sourced from film, had a limited dynamic range to start with, and either film or video, the cinematographer/cameraman had to decide how to expose the video to capture what the director wanted. Trying to go in after the fact and diddle with contrast and brightness levels of different parts of the image has the potential to be an improvement, but also has perhaps a greater potential to be gimmicky looking. I remember the early days of stereo LPs where stereo was new new new. No center image at all, they were mixed with everything panned right or left so by god you'd know you had a stereo!
I guess rated / overrated is a bit subjective. HDR can be quite striking if done well, which we know isn't always the case.
I guess my point above was that while the extra resolution of 4K is not really very noticeable at distances of 10 feet etc, the HDR colours are a bit more noticeable at those distances.
Whether they are more natural, I agree, is a whole different debate.
Back when I was doing B&W photography a lot in my earlier years, and had my own darkroom, I played around with the Zone System. You're spot on about can be done well or not well. When I got everything right, it did capture the image I saw very well, when not, it was often awful. I never played around with it long enough to get expert at it, not like Saint Ansel.
I've only seen a couple of demos of HDR at a store, but most of the images were too WOW and not normal looking, but a couple were quite nice. I also expect that it was like the early stereo demos, over exaggerated to make the great unwashed see the effects, time will tell I guess whether it will catch on or go the way of 3D TV.
But, if you're looking for a 1080p plasma today, you aren't going to find one, so we might as well figure out how to live with OLED and 4K/HDR as it's the best that's currently available. Hopefully my set will last until this all gets sorted out and settles down.
Jeff: Back when I was doing B&W photography a lot in my earlier years, and had my own darkroom, I played around with the Zone System. You're spot on about can be done well or not well. When I got everything right, it did capture the image I saw very well, when not, it was often awful. I never played around with it long enough to get expert at it, not like Saint Ansel. I've only seen a couple of demos of HDR at a store, but most of the images were too WOW and not normal looking, but a couple were quite nice. I also expect that it was like the early stereo demos, over exaggerated to make the great unwashed see the effects, time will tell I guess whether it will catch on or go the way of 3D TV. But, if you're looking for a 1080p plasma today, you aren't going to find one, so we might as well figure out how to live with OLED and 4K/HDR as it's the best that's currently available. Hopefully my set will last until this all gets sorted out and settles down.
Yep, in store demos aren't the best, given the vvid picture modes they use.
I did spend some time with my sisters new Panasonic OLED, lauded amongst the current OLED generation for its colour accuracy out of the box, and closer to the more natural colours of top end plasmas. They sit quite close to it - and it is damn nice, not in a garish way, but you can see why the Panny gets the reviews that it does.
But at 10 feet away, and with a BV12 (or similar in your case), any upgrading itch can wait - in a very good place to start with.
@Sandyb
Glad to hear Panasonic is doing a good job with someone else's OLED panel. I remember reading years ago, back when the thing was 480 vs. 720 vs. 1080, a piece by the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF). Their point was resolution, e.g. number of pixels, was a long way from being the most important aspect of performance. I can't recall the order now, but contrast/black levels, gray scale linearity, color temperature, and color decoder accuracy were all much more importat. One good thing I do to evaluate a panel and the stock settings is to watch a good B&W movie. That will show up problems in everything but color decoder, it's easier to see anomalies in the other things above with a B&W image, especially color temp. Many sets aren't black and white, but gray and blue.
beolion:What always surprised me a little bit the massive price point of the TV’s. Especially now. I would have thought - and hoped - that they would reduce the price of TV’s and thereby have customers who are potential speaker buyers. But that is just my opinion but people today might not really buy into surround systems/speakers like in the “old days”, especially now where we see good front speakers able to produce some kind of virtual surround.
Apparently Aston Martin Lagonda shares are down 40% since their Oct 2018 launch. Does this indicate that the luxury markets have peaked and that B&O had better refocus again?
Graham
vikinger: Apparently Aston Martin Lagonda shares are down 40% since their Oct 2018 launch. Does this indicate that the luxury markets have peaked and that B&O had better refocus again? Graham
Not necessarily. It's quite dangerous to look at the share price of one company and turn it into an indicator for a certain line of business or in this case the luxury market. If you look at LVMH stock price for instance it closed at € 258,20 at the end of last year. Last Friday it said € 324,10 on the boards. If you take that as an indicator you would imagine the luxury market about to explode.
I would try and look for indicators like the S&P global luxury index, which is based on 80 of the largest publicly traded companies. At the time of writing, this index shows a decline of 2.6% over the last year.
Vähintään yhdeksänkymmentä prosenttia suomalainen!
It really is very, very simple. Without products, you will not have sales! And right now the shelves are empty!
The staged product range is virtually non-existing apart from a couple of speakers, and a hockey puck and both remaining TV sets are based on ageing OEM products.
The most appealing product right now is actually Beoamp 2,- Old school virtues,- Icepower and versatile. Pair with a couple of Beovox 2 and you have a reasonably priced powerful audio system, at approx 10.000 dkk which is pretty much the price of a MONO (?) Beosound1.
BEOVOX141:It really is very, very simple. Without products, you will not have sales! And right now the shelves are empty!
Wonder how the Edge i selling?
The shelves are hardly empty. I'd say the shelves are stuffed with too many products with a relatively low profit margin that aren't appealing to enough people.
I did hear that,- you could hope for:
A 4k Beosystem, capable of driving any brand of TV.
A set of speakers for 7.1, including a dedicated centre speaker.
A sound system without strange proprietary hard to explain mono algorithms, with an actual design!
Let's see...
beocool: BEOVOX141:It really is very, very simple. Without products, you will not have sales! And right now the shelves are empty! The shelves are hardly empty. I'd say the shelves are stuffed with too many products with a relatively low profit margin that aren't appealing to enough people.
IMO the products are too scattered, a result of what appears to have been a frantic approach to rush things to market, throwing things against the wall to see if anything sticks. B&O used to take a more conservative, integrated approach, all their products looked good together, all worked together more or less, their showrooms looked like a well conceived systems approach, with a consistent design language. Fewer products, better integrated, and they worked.
Jeff:Wonder how the Edge i selling? Jeff I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
I completely agree with Jeff above.
A B&O TV was perhaps 2-4 times the cost of a good Sony or Panasonic in the 80s and 90s. You paid the price because it was just in reach and the integration, reliability and functionality was worth it. B&O TVs now cost 10 times. By raising prices to Oligarch levels, they lost their working and middle income folk - what a disastrous strategy.
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Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
Not enough snobs nor oligarchs, judging by their financials. LOL just wondering if even this will bring B&O leadership to their senses.
I wonder how the Shape is selling?
seethroughyou: I completely agree with Jeff above. A B&O TV was perhaps 2-4 times the cost of a good Sony or Panasonic in the 80s and 90s. You paid the price because it was just in reach and the integration, reliability and functionality was worth it. B&O TVs now cost 10 times. By raising prices to Oligarch levels, they lost their working and middle income folk - what a disastrous strategy.
Someone says the Eclipse is based on ageing technology. Really! What are the differences between an LG C8 and C9 platform? And the C8 is still on sale and doing well..... Ugggghhhhh.
People comment on the prices, yet sales are actually going up. Where does 10x the price come from? A C8 costs £1699. A Sonos Playbar costs £1398 - so I see a 3x cost multiplier at the very most before any discounts on either side - and the reality is 2.3 - 2.5x after promos.
And people say an Eclipse is 10k, but there has always been a 20% discount offer of some sort and as a result sales are up 25% - HUGE! Are LG sales up that much. No. Seems to me, they've priced it perfectly. And for those needing help, there is always the 0% interest free finance over two years. After the available offers, we're talking £290 per month, less any trade-in equity. I got a great return on my 4-year old Avant55.
And lastly on price; B&O has been living at this same price point for at least 3 generations of product now; Eclipse55, Avant55 and BV7-40. You could argue that with inflation, the price has gone down.
B&O is a luxury product. Stretched attainability is what defines luxury in every category. The Bentley Bentayga is just a VW Touareg at 3x the price, but I don't see people moaning about why they should pay the extra for the luxury version. If folks want premium, then get a Loewe.
But most of all, let's stick with the facts versus wishful supposition. It had to be said.
mawheele: People comment on the prices, yet sales are actually going up. But most of all, let's stick with the facts versus wishful supposition. It had to be said.
People comment on the prices, yet sales are actually going up.
Really?
moxxey: mawheele: People comment on the prices, yet sales are actually going up. But most of all, let's stick with the facts versus wishful supposition. It had to be said. Really?
He is correct that BV's have always been some multiple and that this is not new.
Where he is entirely wrong is that things are going well.
moxxey:Really?
Yes. The release and webcast were both clear that the sell-through of TVs had enjoyed increased sales.
Sandyb: He is correct that BV's have always been some multiple and that this is not new. Where he is entirely wrong is that things are going well.
25% sales increase for Eclipse on a year-for-year compare is exceptional in this market. @Sandby - what is good to you if that is not going well? FACTS please.
mawheele: Sandyb: He is correct that BV's have always been some multiple and that this is not new. Where he is entirely wrong is that things are going well. 25% sales increase for Eclipse on a year-for-year compare is exceptional in this market. @Sandby - what is good to you if that is not going well? FACTS please.
FACTS?
After your earlier post I read the earnings warning again and saw different things than you. Revenue down but gross margin up. If your opinion is correct, and that sounds feasible, the discounting happened at the dealer level, which means their revenue went up while their gross margin went down. Your 20% discount and free financing means dealers have less cash and no inclination to buy new inventory. That also might explain B&O EBITDA going up because their capacity cost went down, while discount were not taken at the factory level (but that is a guess).
Bottom line is that only a sunshine pumper would call the earning warning and conference call good news. The institutional investors got a head up and acted accordingly. That is 2 quarters in succession. The CEO comment about third parties causing trouble in the market resulted from a self-inflicted wound; distribution strategy. They sacrificed the CFO and CTO. What's next?
The ACTUAL good news, unless you were a retail investor, is trading volume appears back to normal and the fall is hopefully stopped.
As far as cars go, I think VW/Audi and BMW saved our coach-built business, and outside investment will hopefully help give Aston Martin and Morgan long future, too.
mawheele: 25% sales increase for Eclipse on a year-for-year compare is exceptional in this market. @Sandby - what is good to you if that is not going well? FACTS please.
You'd expect the ONLY large TV from the brand to increase its sales as they've internally eliminated their own products - the 14-55 option has gone, the Avant 55 and so on. By process of internal elimination alone, this will increase sales of the Eclipse: there aren't other options!
So, sure, you can say they are 'facts', but increased sales of the only large screen TV you have available doesn't necessarily mean you're suddenly selling more TVs.
Apparently, dealers in Denmark are firing back at B&O after the "dealers are not buying" statement, requesting,- You guessed it: new products!
"We are in a void and simply adding new colours is not going to do it"
The Board of directors Ole Andersen might not even be hanging in there.
So whatever extra number of TVs were sold (or not), things definitely are not looking great!
Blame the dealers...B&O has treated their dealers quite poorly, naked beekeeper indeed.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-03-26/bang-olufsen-has-speaker-tv-competition-from-apple-amazon-lg
Ban boring signatures!
My earlier question about the extent of Shape sales follows Jeff's question about the extent of Edge sales.
B&O is now a company that makes a) expensive television sets for a niche market; b) very expensive high-end speakers and speaker-systems; c) moderately expensive headphones, earphones, and single-point speaker systems.
'C' above seems to be doing well, and may be keeping the company in positive cash-flow status. 'A' above is well-debated in this thread and many others. 'B' above is, Imo, telling.
B&O always justified their reputation as vendor of luxury-priced, *high-end* speakers and systems with 1) unique aesthetics; 2) good-to-great sound; and 3) radically innovative design aimed at ease-of-use. This differentiation also justified their above-market pricing. This magic formula worked to make the company successful for several decades.
Are the most recently introduced high-end speakers successful in the market? If not, why? What part of the magic formula is broken?
BeoFrederic: This magic formula worked to make the company successful for several decades.
This magic formula worked to make the company successful for several decades.
For me, people are partly more 'savvy' than they used to be (in the old days, people didn't really understand tech and walked in to a B&O store and knew their dealer would do the entire setup for them) and they simply do not upgrade as frequently. There was a huge jump from SD 4:3 to widescreen and then again to HD. Early HD sets were poor and you could justify an upgrade.
Now, even an 'old' 11-55 produces a fantastic image. My 'old' BV12-65 is stunning, etc. I'd have to think long and hard about finding a spare £10K to justify an Eclipse to better my existing setup and I could find far better things to justify £10K in a tricky Brexit-imposed climate.
BeoFrederic:Are the most recently introduced high-end speakers successful in the market?
I was surprised to see a set of used BL 90 up for sale at two-thirds the original price, but now two months later, still no takers.
Put up a set of 10 years old BL5 at 40% of the original price, and it's gone in a flash.
Perhaps not the most scientific answer to your question, but it might be indicative
poodleboy: mawheele: Sandyb: He is correct that BV's have always been some multiple and that this is not new. Where he is entirely wrong is that things are going well. 25% sales increase for Eclipse on a year-for-year compare is exceptional in this market. @Sandby - what is good to you if that is not going well? FACTS please. FACTS? After your earlier post I read the earnings warning again and saw different things than you. Revenue down but gross margin up. If your opinion is correct, and that sounds feasible, the discounting happened at the dealer level, which means their revenue went up while their gross margin went down. Your 20% discount and free financing means dealers have less cash and no inclination to buy new inventory. That also might explain B&O EBITDA going up because their capacity cost went down, while discount were not taken at the factory level (but that is a guess). Bottom line is that only a sunshine pumper would call the earning warning and conference call good news. The institutional investors got a head up and acted accordingly. That is 2 quarters in succession. The CEO comment about third parties causing trouble in the market resulted from a self-inflicted wound; distribution strategy. They sacrificed the CFO and CTO. What's next? The ACTUAL good news, unless you were a retail investor, is trading volume appears back to normal and the fall is hopefully stopped. As far as cars go, I think VW/Audi and BMW saved our coach-built business, and outside investment will hopefully help give Aston Martin and Morgan long future, too.
You are correct about the dealers taking the burden. That was my point from earlier in this thread. My point was that that the thread was going off track by commenting on the TV pricing strategy and using it to blame to problems. You've come back to the route of their issues; the sales network is being starved of margin and life is too difficult as a B&O retailer. If there is anything the B&O leadership need to heed, change or even fire some people, it comes to the sales and distribution strategy - or lack of it. The product and product marketing teams - including those on TV - are doing a good job bearing in mind their limited R&D options. Sales and distribution on the other hand just plain messed up.
Sandyb:They did report slightly higher TV sales yes. Did they also not report a much lower than anticipated demand from dealers to restock? Regardless, few would argue all is well, for reasons well rehearsed.
Did they also not report a much lower than anticipated demand from dealers to restock?
Regardless, few would argue all is well, for reasons well rehearsed.
Keep pumping the doom and gloom. On other threads you were making unsubstantiated claims they were going to exit the TV business. LOL
Like any business beholden to the stock market, they are having hard times and much of it plays out in public when you have to come clean when discussing under performance.
My point all along has been about the remarks about 10K TVs that are not really 10k to the consumer, TV's being long in the tooth when there not, coming out of the TV business all together is unhelpful and just plain wrong. Then my remarks get taken out of context and repositioned against the broader earnings warning. Not clever.