ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
MartinW:Have a listen to the 6002's and make up your own mind - but don't just say they can't be any good if you haven't even heard them guys!
I don't think anyone is saying they aren't any good. They are good, but they are not good for the price.
BL9, excellent for the price.
BL5, can't be beaten for the price!!!
Too long to list....
Have the old 6000s in my bedroom. Again not mine but my parent's. I feel it is just too voiced as in made to sound pleasant in a certain way and not at all faithful to the original signal. The midrange is phasey and the bass though punchy is a little ill defined and the treble is obviously missing a big portion of the bottom octave.
I must emphasize again that B&O can make big bucks if they give them a thorough makeover. The sound is super unboxy thanks to the enclosure but like I said add BMR drivers, LAT subwoofers and further refined amplification into the mix and you have an all round winner.
Why LAT? Super massive woofer power can be squeezed into a tiny tubular enclosure without the risk of the enclosure moving at all. And it is high speed too.
Why BMR? Because it is the future. ALT can't even stand a chance. And the BMR technology isn't even remotely mature yet.
Both LAT and BMR benefits most from either DSP or active drive or the the combination of both. And they are CHEAP!
Also they are now strictly OEM for obvious reasons.
Then again knowing B&O, they might just use the cheapest versions just to get by instead.
But who knows? Things changes.
You've made it abundantly clear you are a dedicated follower of hifi fashion - this has never been B&Os way.... "let the magazines claim the new messiah - we'll do what we believe is right" is their attitude.... and quite right too! They've had some spectacular successes while the boutique crowd score well in the audiophile press (when placing ads). B&O probably have more engineering test capability than just any other manufacturer than can command the same prices ..... are the other's speakers engineered using the Force or are they "so good" because they regularly feature in the audiophile press??
99.9% of stuff discussed in any review of any audio component that refers to past reviews or competing product is irrelevant unless they are side by side and compared at the same time (and even then, without the reviewers knowledge of what and when)
is irrelevant unless they are side by side and compared at the same time (and even then, without the reviewers knowledge of what and when)
Ban boring signatures!
FYI. Puncher neither BMR nor LAT have been embraced by the general hifi public. Again for obvious reasons.
BMR is OEM only now and it used to be dirt cheap when it was sold freely and so is LAT. Not many enjoy LAT subwoofers that much because it is too CLEAN and again too cheap. How will audio companies charge for what is basically an affordable woofer with lightweight enclosures that outperforms most of the best offerings out there? It will totally upset the system. Why do you think LAT caused such a huge sensation upon released and pulled off production just as swiftly as it was launched?
BMR drivers don't have the lowest distortion in the range they cover but they have near ideal polar, impulse and frequency response and the technology hasn't even reached maturity yet. The properly designed ones are flat from the midrange to treble with no help at all.
And Yes I have other speakers set up side by side comparing with B&O's offerings. B&O's obviously has its own house sound you know....
Puncher, you are right... Following the trip we (some of us) made to Struer this spring showed us what excellent team B&O has to develop speakers. I mean just looks at the BL5's and 9's this is what they can do if they want to! The same should be done to the 8k and 6k.
Which shop did you visit wonderfuleletric ?
I had bought a few things from the dealer (I live in Taiwan), they are normally NOT so updated, if they still have BL6002 displayed in shops, I guess they still have stock....if they real stopped selling out going products like BS9000, BL400s, BL6002, I guess their shops will be empty....since their range is far smaller compare to other countries...I mean really SMALL !!
J
wonderfulelectric: FYI. Puncher neither BMR nor LAT have been embraced by the general hifi public. Again for obvious reasons. BMR is OEM only now and it used to be dirt cheap when it was sold freely and so is LAT. Not many enjoy LAT subwoofers that much because it is too CLEAN and again too cheap. How will audio companies charge for what is basically an affordable woofer with lightweight enclosures that outperforms most of the best offerings out there? It will totally upset the system. Why do you think LAT caused such a huge sensation upon released and pulled off production just as swiftly as it was launched? BMR drivers don't have the lowest distortion in the range they cover but they have near ideal polar, impulse and frequency response and the technology hasn't even reached maturity yet. The properly designed ones are flat from the midrange to treble with no help at all. And Yes I have other speakers set up side by side comparing with B&O's offerings. B&O's obviously has its own house sound you know....
The thread makes no sense. Start with wanting the speakers, and leads to how horrible they are and a briefing on speaker technology. Happy New Year.
I wish I'd been that concise!
dupllicate!
symmes: wonderfulelectric: FYI. Puncher neither BMR nor LAT have been embraced by the general hifi public. Again for obvious reasons. BMR is OEM only now and it used to be dirt cheap when it was sold freely and so is LAT. Not many enjoy LAT subwoofers that much because it is too CLEAN and again too cheap. How will audio companies charge for what is basically an affordable woofer with lightweight enclosures that outperforms most of the best offerings out there? It will totally upset the system. Why do you think LAT caused such a huge sensation upon released and pulled off production just as swiftly as it was launched? BMR drivers don't have the lowest distortion in the range they cover but they have near ideal polar, impulse and frequency response and the technology hasn't even reached maturity yet. The properly designed ones are flat from the midrange to treble with no help at all. And Yes I have other speakers set up side by side comparing with B&O's offerings. B&O's obviously has its own house sound you know.... The thread makes no sense. Start with wanting the speakers, and leads to how horrible they are and a briefing on speaker technology. Happy New Year.
Like I said before it is a love hate with the lab 6000s. I was fortunate enough to grow up having B&O in the house. Avant, 9000 ,2500, 4000,6000,8000,3,4 maybe soon A9. I buy B&O mainly out of sentiment and the practicality, and of course I can't deny the show off quality of B&O electronics too. I just wish they would perform has according to how they look. Like you know how some high end equipments are flashy these days and perform well partly because of the form they take? I just think B&O isn't marketing it right.
Most hifi brands have a product portfolio layout where the itmes grow more beautiful, better performing as they get better built and more expensive?
I wish B&O will follow that kind of strategy too. Makes more sense!
The shop at Bellavita. I am there all the time for meals and pastries. I had to get Amex to deal with them. I can't be bothered with talking with a sales rep who lies etc... Really horrible experience. He even threatened not to return my deposit. I mean A9 isn't exactly made to order plus I prepaid hoping that I will get my hands on it faster.
Anyway i am going to get my A9 straight from Madison Avenue. Although I am kinda turned off by the whole experience. Maybe the lab12s instead with a pioneer N50? When I am back in the mood? Perhaps the lab1s from eBay? My head is spinning.
I was planning to make the switch to the 6002s when I learn that I am only going to get the A9 in end of feb I was told that the arrival would be in Dec. But the rep told me there's B&O has ceased production on the 6002s.... Plain weird.
And I can't even buy subwoofers by themselves as they must be bundled with speakers like ???? - I was really trying not to put the sales rep in a bad spot so I thought to just exchange it for a subwoofer to extend the range of the lab3s...... Long story.... Bottom line is that the dealership's incompetence isn't my business and I shouldn't have bothered to wait as soon as I learned......
You need a new dealer!
Beauty is a personal opinion ofcourse, but I do think the Beolab 5's and 9's look the business. I'm glad they aren't flashy aluminum.
I'm amazed how many of you would want to keep the 6000/6002 in the range. I understand that these are iconic, as well as the BL8000 and BS9000, but the design is 20 years old, and although the innards have been updated somewhat during these years, I have never been a fan of this speaker, (although I own a pair). I know B&O isn't a traditional hi-fi brand, like Sony, Philips etc., (and thank God for that), but they have to design new products to keep their line updated, keep peoples attention, attract new customers and make customers, who already own 6000's, want to buy new speakers, to keep making money on their loyal customer base.
To put it in perspective, Imagine if our cars wasn't redesigned the last 20 years, but was just updated with MP3 players and airbags to keep them up to date, we'd be drive the likes of these, (and mind you, these aren't actually that bad, there are way worse looking cars out there from that era):
Or worse, imagine if we still wore the same style clothes as in 1992!! I'm not saying that change is always good and that you should change just for the sake of doing it, but change isn't always bad either
I have just bought an 11 year old, all aluminium Audi A2. The A1 that replaces it is made from rusty old steel and doesn't look like it was from the Space 1999 film set. Backward step in my book.
11 years old, 20 years ahead. Same could be said for the 6/8000.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Tonker:I have just bought an 11 year old, all aluminium Audi A2. The A1 that replaces it is made from rusty old steel and doesn't look like it was from the Space 1999 film set. Backward step in my book. 11 years old, 20 years ahead. Same could be said for the 6/8000. Beovision 10-46, Belab 11, Beosound 8, Beocom 2, Beotime and a shed load of A8's and Form 2's. Oh and a Beo4 and 6.
Henrik Toubro: I'm amazed how many of you would want to keep the 6000/6002 in the range. I understand that these are iconic, as well as the BL8000 and BS9000, but the design is 20 years old, and although the innards have been updated somewhat during these years, I have never been a fan of this speaker, (although I own a pair). I know B&O isn't a traditional hi-fi brand, like Sony, Philips etc., (and thank God for that), but they have to design new products to keep their line updated, keep peoples attention, attract new customers and make customers, who already own 6000's, want to buy new speakers, to keep making money on their loyal customer base. To put it in perspective, Imagine if our cars wasn't redesigned the last 20 years, but was just updated with MP3 players and airbags to keep them up to date, we'd be drive the likes of these, (and mind you, these aren't actually that bad, there are way worse looking cars out there from that era): Or worse, imagine if we still wore the same style clothes as in 1992!! I'm not saying that change is always good and that you should change just for the sake of doing it, but change isn't always bad either
The lab 6000s aren't cars plus they are displayed at the Moma and they look distinctly similar to many of the loudspeakers out there. Like I said the Lab6000s should be updated aesthetically as well. In terms of built and finishes etc.... Just minor tweaks here and there and perhaps use aircraft grade aluminum instead just to up the ante? I did mention a massive price hike just to really bring them to truly iconic level.
They are not perfect but they definitely distill the concept of being speakers that produce maximum sound while taking up minimum real estate space. Extremely practical! Now that the technologies such as DSP, wireless HD streaming, LAT subwoofer technology and BMR loudspeaker technologies have arrived, the concept can finally be realized with minimum compromise.
I like that they are like bookshelf speakers without the need for expensive stands etc...
On an aesthetic level they are definitely not remotely outdated. There will always be minimalist fashion. If Flos lamps can go in production for 40 yrs in a row......
Had anyone seen the latest offerings from Magico? They are anodized colored aluminum columns taken to the extreme.
I suggest B&O create a higher end alternative to the playmaker like individual wireless receivers that accept high res streaming with built in room correction that can be attached to any active loudspeakers in the range. I mean something else must take over the role of costly music centers of the past. And build in LED volume level displays in the 6000,8000 will be very nice. Displays volume change when required and just revert back to the original colored dots when the volume levels are left untouched. B&O has highly trained groups of technicians already. It wouldn't be a difficult task at all for them to do the DSP room correction for their clients. That's a lot of extra revenue there. Create the incentive for the customers to upgrade their systems regularly without parting with massive chunks of money or have the need to dispose of their old system then I don't see how it won't work to have fully modular updated reference grade 6000s and 8000s.
Jacob Jensen has his own line of phones and cutleries that have been around forever and people are still buying them right?
Once the BMR technology takes over the loudspeaker industry which is kinda inevitable. The ALT lenses will just seem like a gimmick offering no advantages acoustically at all. Form must follow function. BMR drivers are way cheaper than the implementation of the ALT lenses for sure.
LAT subwoofers on the other hand will definitely upset a lot of high end audio manufacturers. Imagine a technology way superior than the expensive isobaric designs and the push push driver topologies without the need of expensive enclosures. Audio manufacturers can no longer justify the extravagance of having massive overbuilt drivers and super rigid/ huge cabinets anymore.
You get the picture!
It's really sad that LAT might never see the light of day again though unless....
Some design is iconic and never needs to change - even in fashion! Just look at Rayban Aviators and Wayferer's - 60+ year old designs still looking the absolute best to this day! And the skinny tie, the black slim fit suit :) the white shirt, the pee coat, Nikes, Converse trainers
Same for BL6000 & 8000! Mind you I would of continued producing 5000-6500-7000 systems - timeless!
Paul W: Same for BL6000 & 8000! Mind you I would of continued producing 5000-6500-7000 systems - timeless!
Would of .... Would have?
I see this expression 'Would of' all over the Internet. Did it start out as text shorthand? (Correction... That would be 'Wud of')
Graham
vikinger: Paul W: Same for BL6000 & 8000! Mind you I would of continued producing 5000-6500-7000 systems - timeless! Would of .... Would have? I see this expression 'Would of' all over the Internet. Did it start out as text shorthand? (Correction... That would be 'Wud of') Graham
Well as long as the meaning is put across.....
The the technology of machining and manufacturing mass produced items have improved tremendously throughout the years so perhaps the aesthetic of he old timeless looking models can be preserved but they definitely deserve updates.
Like I said the Beolab 6000s and 8000s build and designs can definitely be updated. For instance just improving the quality of the aluminum used on them can have a tremendous impact on reflective nature of the enclosures. Like how the B&O brand is laser engraved, the actual font used, the brightness of the LED lights etc.....
What I am saying is that a thorough revision is long overdue. I quite like the new LED lights on the 6002s but not really on the 8002 though. Looks like a pimple sticking out of the bottom chin of the speakers IMHO. lol.
Come on B&O deliver what the fans of your long time favorites have dreamt of for ages- a leave no stones unturned update!
Double the prices and quadruple the performance and relaunch them to the press. Shock and awe them what modern speaker technologies can really do. Prove them wrong once and for all that speakers don't have to look serious to deliver serious performance. And not just that big sound from slick columns trick. You have tons of competition that can do that now. Quality over quantity!
And regarding the ALT lense technology. It never was a failure it's just a case of simple bad luck that a new technology has emerged a little early to give it an early retirement.
I thought the Lab3s, Lab5s, Lab9s were cool when they were released but now they are beginning to seem a little gimmicky. Don't you think the subsequent ALT lense based speakers are beginning to seem a little too restricted by default? For me form should always follow function when when the both is starting to fail... I bet the lenses aren't exactly cheap to produce too!
Also the future of LAT subwoofer technology might depend on you to bring it back from the dead. You might be the only audio manufacturer who isn't too concerned about looking serious and having overbuilt parts just for the sake of it. Being able to stick a genuine high speed low distortion 9inches and 12 inches os subwoofer powers into the lab 6000s and lab 8000s; who would have ever thought that could have been possible just a few years ago?
Vikinger,
English isn't actually my first language. It would be easier for me to write in Spanish or Norwegian.
But seriously, if you are reading forums and correcting people's English that is rather sad! I know a few B&O people are very boring and that's why B&O are having such a hard time trying to sell to the younger crowd but come on man - enjoy life, don't criticise others!
@wonderfulelectric Double the prices?
That would be ridicoulus.
What we pay for a loudspeaker is more then enough!!!!
Look what they use for drivers in the beolab 6000 and 8000.
The are not worth more money (imho)
The car comparison doesn't work.
Car's have evolved massively in 20 years. Just think about fuel consumption, about halved.
Speakers haven't really made that much of a leap, except a speaker like the BL5, which wouldn't have been possible back in 1992.
Design is eternal in a sense, as a car look at the 911.
do you think so?
i own beolab5.i've been listen to the focal utopia (first gen)
They blown away the beolab5 in all terms.
Koning, for the BL5 price, I'm hard pressed to think there's anything better. (18K euro)
Try and get a set of speakers with amp/amps that would be better than the BL5's?
There's better speakers/setups than the BL5's. But the cost is much higher.
Focal Utopia.... What are they 200k/pair? Add another 100K for "proper" amps.
I'd say the B&W 800D are better and more precise than the BL5's. But that will also be a much more expensive setup than the BL5's.
bayerische: The car comparison doesn't work. Car's have evolved massively in 20 years. Just think about fuel consumption, about halved. Speakers haven't really made that much of a leap, except a speaker like the BL5, which wouldn't have been possible back in 1992. Design is eternal in a sense, as a car look at the 911.
Well said
Vähintään yhdeksänkymmentä prosenttia suomalainen!
bayerische: Koning, for the BL5 price, I'm hard pressed to think there's anything better. (18K euro) Try and get a set of speakers with amp/amps that would be better than the BL5's? There's better speakers/setups than the BL5's. But the cost is much higher.
Again... well said
Oke'
I've been listen to many different audiophile set ups.
And they where not 100.000 euro's!
But that's your opion about the beolab 5 and i'm not gonna argue with that
koning: Oke' I've been listen to many different audiophile set ups. And they where not 100.000 euro's! But that's your opion about the beolab 5 and i'm not gonna argue with that
I have also listened to many Audiophile setups. Probably more than most. One of my family members is one of the biggest importers of audio gear in Finland.
As I said, there's many many better speakers and setups than the BL5, but for the money I'm not sure you can find anything better. Different most definitely, but better?
I'm not arguing. I can honestly say, that if I was to find something better (again for the money) I would trade the BL5's, as I'm not emotionally attached to them. I would love a pair of B&W 800D, say with a couple of McIntosh amps. But that setup will be twice the price of the BL5's. It would be a better setup though.
beocool: bayerische: Koning, for the BL5 price, I'm hard pressed to think there's anything better. (18K euro) Try and get a set of speakers with amp/amps that would be better than the BL5's? There's better speakers/setups than the BL5's. But the cost is much higher. Again... well said
Thanks mate!
bayerische: beocool: bayerische: Koning, for the BL5 price, I'm hard pressed to think there's anything better. (18K euro) Try and get a set of speakers with amp/amps that would be better than the BL5's? There's better speakers/setups than the BL5's. But the cost is much higher. Again... well said Thanks mate!
Parrots
Paul W: Vikinger, English isn't actually my first language. It would be easier for me to write in Spanish or Norwegian. But seriously, if you are reading forums and correcting people's English that is rather sad! I know a few B&O people are very boring and that's why B&O are having such a hard time trying to sell to the younger crowd but come on man - enjoy life, don't criticise others!
Hi Paul,
Godt Nyttår!
My post was a general comment on the use of 'of' instead of 'have' throughout the Internet, not aimed at you personally. Don't read too much into it!
Double post.
.I have also listened to many Audiophile setups. Probably more than most. One of my family members is one of the biggest importers of audio gear in Finland.
Beolab 5 are exceptional speakers for the price,as they have the amps built in,but you pay a premium for that conveniance,also a premuim for the design,we all know that.
If you spend 50-50 on speakers and amps from a high end brand,I am sure they will be better sounding,I have tested lab5s against many setups as my dad has a set,and I was going to get a set also,but found better for music listening.
I know linn akurate 242 speakers and either akurate or klimax amplication,do produce the music better and more natural in my eyes and ears,but it all boils down to personal choice.I have to admit I buy alot of b&o for looks,and conveniance and decent sound,but when I truly want to listen to music,it has to be a linn system for me,handbuilt in my native country scotland.
koning: @wonderfulelectric Double the prices? That would be ridicoulus. What we pay for a loudspeaker is more then enough!!!! Look what they use for drivers in the beolab 6000 and 8000. The are not worth more money (imho)
With revised built and internals. That's what I meant. The aesthetic value of those speakers are definitely on par with high end speakers in double the price range. Thus double the price and quadruple the performance.
The reason why think cheap parts are put into the lab 6000s and 8000s is because the shells are too expensive to manufacture and they priced it to low for them to actually include quality parts.
You get what I am trying to put across right?
What I am saying is that now that there are technologies out there that can finally realize B&O's vision of maximum sound and convenience with minimum visual impact. The acoustic lense range seems unnecessary already. The lenses just aren't worth investing into anymore. B&O has the beoplay range to provide them with good source of revenue and so the next wise move is to strengthen the core range like the beolab column range by elevating them to true reference standards and boosting the brand image. The acoustic lense range never really got into people's head as what is quintessentially B&O so why bother? It's not that the lenses are indispensable to the brand. High quality BMR driver technology is way cheaper and better performing, same goes to the use of LAT technology to eliminate big expensive enclosures.
LAT is basically a subwoofer technology that almost behaves like ribbon tweeter. Imagine the quality of that! I think only B&O has the ability to bring it back from the dead. Most hifi companies are too afraid to use it because this will mean the end of overcharging the customers for quality bass. But since B&O is all about having compact beautiful speakers then...... It's a match made in heaven.
Continue expanding the Beoplay range with high performing cheerfully built/ looking and priced products. And elevate the beolab range to price is no object level like what most hifi labels are doing without the unnecessary visual noise. That should be the future for B&O. Most truly high end loudspeakers are made of metal anyway and pro active monitors have metal enclosures for a very long time. So pricing those aluminum B&O speakers to perform at that level is a natural fit. Think pocket, eye and real estate friendly Magico speakers.