ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Flappo:stop making over priced under performing crapthat's a start , oh and don't keep treating your dealers like $hit
I would not suggest that B&O should be sold at Best Buy. NEVER. But it's hard for me to imagine B&O being sold at the traditional high end mom and pop shop. I'm no expert on the high end market, I guess I just don't really see them that much. I used to 20-30 years ago.
peria: I would not suggest that B&O should be sold at Best Buy. NEVER. But it's hard for me to imagine B&O being sold at the traditional high end mom and pop shop. I'm no expert on the high end market, I guess I just don't really see them that much. I used to 20-30 years ago.
No you are correct, they are not a common site anymore. But at LEAST there's many more of them still than the standalone B&Os (with the exception of the B&O store inside Abt electronics in Chicago).
First of all, there is nothing special about Danish engineering, so just like with Apple what matters is that the product is developed and specifically DESIGNED in Denmark.
Second thing is what I personally think is important to get more and new people to spend money on B&O: Make cooperatione, good marketing. Show where the B&O products make a difference. The audio quality of the products is superb and worth the price, but people don't understand it as they have nothing to grasp this. B&Os latest coopeartion with Universal for the Les Misérables soundtrack is a perfect example to get the name and value of the B&O out there with an actual example of where exactly this difference in quality lies.
Unique design, and quality.
These were the points that I used to make my first purchase from Bang & Olufsen in 1965.
If quality issues were not the reality for many products coming from China, it would not be a problem. But they are, as easily detected in the fraudulent and flimsy A-8's discovered any given day on EBAY.
My neighbor in Brasil was entranced with our Beosound 1 that I took there years ago as a HTPC system speaker. " Look at the quality and workmanship: It is amazing ! " he repeated, regarding the grille foil covers. He owns a few planes, and properties, and his wife shops 3x per year in Europe and Miami. Still he commented that there was nothing like this on the market, so I gifted it and a Beo 4 to him. Invited over for dinner after he set it up with his Iphone, the mantra repeated over and over to his friends was " Qualidade da Dinamarca "
Made in Denmark, Made in Switzerland, or Made in Japan are acceptable to most of us as buyers, as the countries are known as consistent producers of unique, reliable, and quality products. So yes, there is validity in the point made earlier that Made in Denmark equals unique designs and lasting, and a more reliable product.
Take a look at the johnlewis.com website and search on BeoPlay or Olufsen. (Olufsen brings up the Beolit... BeoPlay only the A9 and A8)
A few very good customer reviews are starting to appear. More indicative of what the average man in the street is thinking rather than B&O enthusiasts.
Graham
Why is it, that every time "China" and "Bang & Olufsen" get's put in the same sentence, "Apple" and "China" needs to be put in the same sentence as a defense?
There's no defending B&O being built in China. BMW isn't built in China, nor is Iittala or Miele.
Too long to list....
SWISS_2: So yes, there is validity in the point made earlier that Made in Denmark equals unique designs and lasting, and a more reliable product.
So yes, there is validity in the point made earlier that Made in Denmark equals unique designs and lasting, and a more reliable product.
Luckily it only took them about 4 x BV7-40's and years of development, using customers as guinea pigs, to get their software to work properly, then.
Hardware is only as good as the software that drives it. It's relatively 'easy' to design a great-looking device. If that device falls over from poor software, the design you talk about isn't as good as it should be.
I'm not really sure 'reliable' really applies to some of the more recent B&O products. There's a history of poor software causing issues over the last 5-6 years.
Although I agree our expectations are that 'Made in Denmark' equals quality, you absolutely must get the entire package right to meet these high standards, especially when charging top-dollar prices.
bayerische: There's no defending B&O being built in China. BMW isn't built in China, nor is Iittala or Miele.
It isn't though - it's only the BeoPlay products. This entire 'Made in China' thing is mostly blown out of proportion from people who believe that the entire range will somehow migrate to China. As I said before, pure xenophobia behind territorial perception drives this, not the actual reality of it happening. B&O isn't moving the BV11, BL5 and other products to China and never implied this would happen.
When China makes the best products everyone will start looking for the 'Made in China' marks, just as they did with 'Made in England' when our products were the best.
bayerische:There's no defending B&O being built in China. BMW isn't built in China, nor is Iittala or Miele.
Some Miele vacuum cleaners are made in China.
As always, you don't know what you are talking about and you have visibly absolutely no idea how companies in the electronic and house hold appliances sectors organize their production in order to maintain a good level of quality when the competition is harder and the sales prices are falling (because of customers).
4 beolab 5, beolab 9, beolab 10, beolab 5000, beolab 8000 mk2, beolab 6002, beolab 3500, beovision 7 55 mk2, 2 beovision 11 46 mk4, beotime, beosound ouverture, beosound essence, beoplay A8, beomaster 900 RG de luxe and the collection continues...
vikinger: When China makes the best products everyone will start looking for the 'Made in China' marks, just as they did with 'Made in England' when our products were the best. Graham
Unlikely. In the same time that China has been mass producing everything from tennis shoes to automobiles, Japan went from being viewed with a skeptical eye to desired and respected in a few specific categories (i.e. automobiles and electronics). And even after that, look at Korea. Made in Korea products by Samsung, LG, Kia, Hyundai et al are already gaining tremendous ground on the Japanese. Yet the Chinese are still viewed as the place where mass market things are made "on the cheap". China has had *plenty* of time to achieve what the Japanese and especially the Koreans have in far less time, and no one desires anything Made in China but perhaps fireworks or rice still to this day. Joking aside, of those few things China is desired and respected for, such as pottery, they are arts they mastered centuries ago.
Unlike your colorful and interesting background on Switzerland's watch production, the difference with China is that they take *EVERYTHING* someone else was already producing well and come up with a way to make it cheaper, not necessarily better. Let's face it, China is viewed as the world's factory, not a specialized talent in any particular category. Jack of all trades, master of none.
Playdrv4me: vikinger: When China makes the best products everyone will start looking for the 'Made in China' marks, just as they did with 'Made in England' when our products were the best. Graham Unlikely.......
Unlikely.......
Agreed!
moxxey: bayerische: There's no defending B&O being built in China. BMW isn't built in China, nor is Iittala or Miele. It isn't though - it's only the BeoPlay products. This entire 'Made in China' thing is mostly blown out of proportion from people who believe that the entire range will somehow migrate to China. As I said before, pure xenophobia behind territorial perception drives this, not the actual reality of it happening. B&O isn't moving the BV11, BL5 and other products to China and never implied this would happen.
I know. But the Beoplay product line wouldn't hurt to be made in Denmark.
bayerische: I know. But the Beoplay product line wouldn't hurt to be made in Denmark.
What percentage price increase do you believe the average BeoPlay customer would be prepared to accet just so they could say the product was made in Denmark rather than China?
There would have to be a not insignificant price increase, and you know what, the vast majority of BeoPlay customers couldn't care less if it were made in Denmark or anywhere else, most of them probably don't even know B&O is a Danish brand, and most of them will have accepted a premium price point over other brands due to build quality, sound quality, design and materials. I don't know how much more of a premium they would be prepared to pay
After looking at this thread they could certainly be made to believe they could get away with it. And from the sounds of it many here would keep buying them if they did...
I think the gap in performance has narrowed considerably in the last 10 years between high end and low end electronics ( largely ). This is a source of irritation for high end manufacturers, who traditionally had a form of monopoly on high end gear.
Now with cheap R&D and NC machinery and cheap skilled oriental labour, the cheap end of the market is catching up in quality.
When a cheap korean car has the same NCAP safety rating, reliability and performance of a expensive german marque, you have a problem.
B&O need to really lift their game to keep in front, but to do so need a recognisable differnece between them and the lower end of the market apart from price. Engineering and quality need to really come up, and price come down ( a bit ). But also, there needs to be some interoperability between their products and the rest of the market, but also the ability to work ( by choice ) exclusively within their own proprietry Beolink system as well.
You dont take a Ferrari to the corner garage to get it serviced.....
synth: B&O need to really lift their game to keep in front, but to do so need a recognisable differnece between them and the lower end of the market apart from price. Engineering and quality need to really come up, and price come down ( a bit ).
B&O need to really lift their game to keep in front, but to do so need a recognisable differnece between them and the lower end of the market apart from price. Engineering and quality need to really come up, and price come down ( a bit ).
Well, economies of scale dictate that pricing should come down, as B&O recoup R&D costs for a product, over a period of time. However, they go UP. Look at the BL3s, as an example. When I bought mine in 2007, they were closer to £1500. They are now over £2500, despite being on the market for seven years.
There can't be too many consumer electronic manufacturers who get away with increasing the prices on the products year on year. This works in, say, the luxury watch market as demand outstrips supply. With B&O it's the other way around. Supply outstrips demand, yet the prices go up. Where all their competitors work to bring down prices, B&O plan to put them up. There must be some (potential) customers out there who save up over a year or two to buy a B&O product, go in the store and find it's £200 or more expensive. I'm sure it's happened to me! I get a price on a B&O product, go back a few months later and it's more expensive. Result? Consumer negativity. Puts me off. I often have second thoughts about the purchase.
If B&O are to develop new products constantly, then the lifetime of the products must decrease quite a bit compared to today.
So the cashcow idea by increasing prices will not work in the future.
But new products, that also works for non-B&O makes sense for me.
olvisab: bayerische:There's no defending B&O being built in China. BMW isn't built in China, nor is Iittala or Miele. Some Miele vacuum cleaners are made in China. As always, you don't know what you are talking about and you have visibly absolutely no idea how companies in the electronic and house hold appliances sectors organize their production in order to maintain a good level of quality when the competition is harder and the sales prices are falling (because of customers).
As always I have no idea what I'm talking about.
What's up with that comment?
Goes to show Miele is also taking the easy one out. I actually bought a Miele washer last year, and I'm not too surprised as the quality of it isn't what it used to be. Electrical problems.
rednik: bayerische: I know. But the Beoplay product line wouldn't hurt to be made in Denmark. What percentage price increase do you believe the average BeoPlay customer would be prepared to accet just so they could say the product was made in Denmark rather than China? There would have to be a not insignificant price increase, and you know what, the vast majority of BeoPlay customers couldn't care less if it were made in Denmark or anywhere else, most of them probably don't even know B&O is a Danish brand, and most of them will have accepted a premium price point over other brands due to build quality, sound quality, design and materials. I don't know how much more of a premium they would be prepared to pay
Might be true, but neglecting the history and background of the brand isn't going to move the "new customers" B&O are trying to lure into the brand trough the Beoplay line of products up to the full fledged Bang & Olufsen products.
If they think all B&O is made in China, why would they chill out 20K for a pair of BL5's, or 15.000 for a BV12?
Communication is key.
No idea, what do you think?
bayerische:As always I have no idea what I'm talking about.
My sentence is as unfair as yours ; "There's NO defending B&O being built in China."
Sorry
I'm obviously in the minority here but I see the value of the brand in the design, the materials, the finish, the engineering/R&D and the performance - who holds the screwdriver that fastens the bits together doesn't add any value for me, as long as the finished article consistently meets the same demanding QC standards.
There's an impression that Struer is full of grey haired craftsmen hand fettling parts to produce hand built items but the reality is that they are, in the main, mass produced using machinery, jigs and fixtures by semi-skilled line operators just like any other modern day appliance factory anywhere in the world.
There may be other reasons to retain production in Denmark (or Czech Republic) but product quality shouldn't be one of them.
Ban boring signatures!
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
olvisab: bayerische:As always I have no idea what I'm talking about. My sentence is as unfair as yours ; "There's NO defending B&O being built in China." Sorry
Well mine wasn't a personal attack such as yours.
bayerische:Well mine wasn't a personal attack such as yours.
Your sentence was an attack to any man well informed and with good sense.
Actually, BMW do make cars in China - they have aa number of joint ventures there. I believe the X5 is made in the USA. Does that make it less of a BMW. Do you know BMW even has a design studio in California? Open your eyes and live in the 21st century.
Back to the original question. I don't really like the Play products but they are putting the B&O brand back on the high street and that, I think, will bring new customers. My first B&O product was a budget 2200 but I've moved up range since.
Hardwriter: Actually, BMW do make cars in China - they have aa number of joint ventures there. I believe the X5 is made in the USA. Does that make it less of a BMW. Do you know BMW even has a design studio in California? Open your eyes and live in the 21st century. Back to the original question. I don't really like the Play products but they are putting the B&O brand back on the high street and that, I think, will bring new customers. My first B&O product was a budget 2200 but I've moved up range since.
.......... I believe Jaguar is building a plant in China too.
Almost every car maker is producing cars in China. It is the world's fastest growing consumer market. It is also the centre of the electronics assembly industry. And B&O will not be using large Chinese contract manufacturers just for price. They will also allow it to ramp up production much faster than would be possible in their own plants in Denmark and Czech Republic, which is essential with the Play line of products.
Thanks StUrrock - I had almost given up hope to learn what a potential new costumer would expect from a Bang & Olufsen product nowadays.
I am sure someone on Beoworld must know someone who is interested, but hasn't bought anything yet.
Grrr! MM
What I'd like to see is a proper media hub. Media could be stored on network drives, and the hub would only work as a way of "transporting" your media, be it pics, video or music. This would all be stream wirelessly on WLAN of course. It would also need a TV tuner (or perhaps several), so that you could watch different TV channels on your different TV's around the house.
It would need some proper connectivities, as it would basically be something of a "master device", connections for speakers etc.
It would need either a bigger remote, say something along the lines of a Beolink 7000, that would have some mechanical "magic" built in it, the Beo5/6 is too small IMHO. Also the user interface would need to be top-notch, fast and easy to use, and foremost work!
Connections would need to be easily adaptable to third party equipment.
The box itself would need to be something else than a black metal box. Style it up, add some mechanical parts perhaps, make it possible to have it hidden, but also possible to have it on display.
Price it sensibly. Make it future proof.
Something like this is what I would like to see. While I can do all this with my current setup (Apple) I'd much more like to have the proper B&O feel all the way. The exclusivity of owning something that your neighbor doesn't.
You said it all with your comments on media hubs .You can do al this with products already on the market so it would be pointless for B&O to go that route. They need to focus on good looking and decent performing products that are visible to consumers that would not usually find there way into a B&O store. Hence the Play products that work on existing media hub systems. Sell them on the high street, be highly visible then bring them in. Then maybe there will be some new B&O customers to replace people like us who already enjoy (most) of the products.
What does people stop?
People listening and viewing my B&O stuff at my home without knowing anything about B&O are impressed by picture (BV 8) and sound (BeoVox Penta and BeoLab 4000).
People who know a few things about this highly priced luxury brand doubt my sanity a little bit ...
There are not enough people appreciating craftmanship or knowing that you are not paying for a B&O TV but for the B&O loudspeaker with an attached monitor.
Well, yes I agree, the problem is other companies making very cheap and good solutions, like Apple.
I basically have this system described at home at the cost of a mac mini, ipad and Apple TV. That's just north of 1000 euro, and I can't see B&O making something similar for under 5000e... I would be a buyer though...
The 'must be made in Denmark' crowd is in for a surprise:
http://www.electronic-supply.dk/article/view/104555/bo_dropper_tvproduktionen_i_struer
(I guess the title doesn't need Google translate)
--mika