ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Rich:I am dying to suggest that opening the dust cover and using shims is way faster and you are sure everything is aligned....but I won't
Me neither
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Thanks everyone for the advice. Agee, shimming is foolproof.
Dennis, that is the exact guide I used on my first set, RL140s and did not cut caps, did not shim, and did not use a battery either. Same technique on pair of EV's about a month ago too. I just recently did some reading and the battery aspect seemed to be one more extra step to improve the non shimmed approach, maybe not.
I also viewed the Simply Speakers video, link below, no shims or need to disturb the factory dust caps.
http://www.simplyspeakers.com/cerwin-vega-speaker-foam-edge-repair-kit-fsk-12ar.html
I am comfortable without shims and will give it a try again, let you all know how it goes this weekend.
Made a bit of progress. Here are the before and after of the 4 woofers; after being prepped and ready to apply the new surrounds. Took about 1.5 hours to remove the old, it gets sticky and nasty, but comes off easily with some rubbing alcohol, a sharp razor blade in a box cutter handle. Wiped it all down and the old foam came off 100% by rubbing with fingers on the smaller poly cones. Similar approach on the larger paper too. Going to glue all 4, then mow the lawn before finishing up with glue to the frames, likely tomorrow.
Mowed the lawn, had a couple beers and now the woofers are done. Not even sure I needed the clothes pins. Decided not to mess with the whole battery thing. The woofers are perfectly aligned, no rubbing. The glue from Simply Speakers is awesome - sets up quickly but allows you to move the speaker if needed for positioning, then bites and holds.
Guys, once you glue the foams to the cones and let set up, they will find their true center on the frames. I don't see any reason to shim, but I respect your technique and approach.
Should be listening to these tomorrow as everything else is done and ready to reassemble. I picked up a couple of 7/8" plastic plugs from Lowes for the rear speaker wires to exit. Drilled them out so the wire can be exposed and am going to use some screw on banana plugs for now.
Oh, here's one more owner cutting corners to save - err.. what is it you are saving ?
"Guys, once you glue the foams to the cones and let set up, they will find their true center on the frames."- The cones are practically never centered in the frames. Neither is the center piece, actually. And why should they be ?Besides, over 30 years the heavy coils of those 8- and 10-inch woofers will almost always make the spider sag a bitand with that the coil and cone.Centering the cone around the center piece is the important thing. Centering to the mounting frame is not!
"I don't see any reason to shim"- Exactly this has brought dozens of failed DIY refoam jobs to my door. Some could be saved.Many owners actually ruined the woofers when they tried to remove the new surrounds again.
"but I respect your technique and approach."- That's what experience has showed to be the only way to a safe, lasting result the first time, so thanks.
But why cut corners ?You are so close to doing a professional job and this could easily spoil it all.Shimming is easy, fast and doesn't cost anything.You are free to do what you like with- and to your speakers and I've written long and heavyabout this subject countless times but that's my advice, anyways.
But I'm happy to see that you seem to have bought decent quality surrounds and glue.You can safely buy the same ones next time.
Oh, and don't let the clothes pegs push inwards on the bulbs.Compare T/S with and without the pegs and you'll be much surprised !That's experience talking again. Sorry.
Martin
Hey Martin - glad you have such a wealth of experience here. I read some of your posts and others before I made my decision. You seem to feel there is only one way to do this, but sadly, you are wrong. We agree there is some risk in doing it without shims, but again, many enthusiasts have been successful without shims. If you looked at the video from Simply Speakers (and several others these days that repair speakers for consumers), they don't shim.
As well, if you read the earlier part of the thread, the reason I did it this way was NOT to disturb the factory dust caps. And, I didn't just glue them on and let them set up, there was a lot on moving the cone in and out to have it reach it's natural centering point.
I am very happy with the results and I am sure the music will sound great here later this afternoon. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong on that one too.
"If you looked at the video from Simply Speakers (and several others these days that repair speakers for consumers), they don't shim"- I've seen the videos.I've also seen all the failed DIY attempts arriving here. I had three last week, two M150 woofers and one S80.And the prof. refoamers DO shim, they would have too many returns if they didn't.But of course they want to make it look as simple as possible to the buyers and if a buyer fails the project and complain, theywill blame his skills or the woofers initial condition.I've been there too with several foam suppliers and even more owners.
"the reason I did it this way was NOT to disturb the factory dust caps"- Why is this important to you ?
"there was a lot on moving the cone in and out to have it reach it's natural centering point."- The cone/coil/spider will all have sagged to some extent, that's gravity and nature, in other words; unavoidable.In some woofers (RL140 seem particularly prone because of its tight tolerances) this can in rare cases causethe coil to start rubbing against the center piece EVEN with the surrounds still intact.Surely, this is not where you want it to sit again ? In the above mentioned cases the spider will also have to be shim'ed back (or replaced - and shim'ed).
"sadly, you are wrong."- Yes, that is sad.And to hear it after doing a count of close to 4 digits of B&O woofers from all over the world over severaldecades only makes it even more sad. Well, having said that, I do feel a slight bit of comfort in the fact that I've not had one single negative feedbackon my work yet, let alone a return.
If you are happy, then fine.And no, you're not wrong - not at all. I have a huge respect for owners trying to fix stuff themselves but as one of this sites technical advisors, I will again haveto advice against doing refoam jobs without shim'ing.It's so easy, cheap and fast and an almost 100% guarantee of good result so I see no reason whatsoever for NOT shim'ing.I've seen too many woofers, that could've been saved, go to landfill.These woofers are custom produced to B&O. They are long out of production and replacements with reasonablysimilar T/S parameters can't be found anywhere.
I've also said this before; Some owners have more skills than others. Others again just have more luck.If you succeded, then fine. You will know if you succeeded after a couple of months.Just don't count on all DIYers to reach the same result.I can tell you, not all people have finger skills for tasks like this !
Thanks Martin - again, you know WAY more about this than me or most for that matter, and I fully respect that knowledge and your execution. Your perfect track record is something to be proud of and no doubt, your method is best.
I have decent skill and dexterity to restore cars, bikes, electronics, so this was the route I took. You have all educated me here, perhaps the next set of rare speakers will be done with shims so as to not risk failure.
On to the reassembly and some listening later on today. More pics to follow.
Martin, I may look you up for the crossover rebuild kit and I would welcome your input on how best to execute on that little project, thanks
indyaudio:Martin, I may look you up for the crossover rebuild kit
I can recommend Martins kits, comes with instructions, i have used several of his kits, not only for crossovers. I normally change at least the caps in the crossovers, when the speakers are opened anyway, its faster, and using electrolytic caps, no high cost. Waiting for your test
Well, regarding the capacitors my advice is to keep it simple.Replace the old electrolytic capacitors with fresh electrolytic capacitors.Some owners prefer to use foil caps, sometimes even very expensive ones but it is my experiencethat 99,8% of enhancing the sound quality comes from simply renewing the caps andonly the last 0,2% (if any at all) from upgrading the caps.I can't tell much of a difference from fresh standard bipolar caps to foils, to be honest. Not on these speakers anyway.From putting together kits of both types, I can tell that not many owners heard a difference either.Foil kits are no longer made for the same reason.
Besides, the speakers and filters were designed for electrolytic capacitors. Feel free to experiment but, being onethat likes to give out safe advice, I would tell you to just fit standard bipolar caps.
Unless coils or resistors look burned or otherwise damaged, I would leave them alone.They'll be fine and they don't wear.
If you like to do an upgrade, it should be to the input and woofer leads.They are alright from factory but a little more gauge here will never hurt.No need to go upwards of 0,75mm2 and no need to do the midrange and tweeter leads.
it is clearly the best BeoVox in my opinion I'll got to have a set but have to wait until Dillen have renovated my last pair of beolab penta mk3. I'll just can not wait
Dillen: Well, regarding the capacitors my advice is to keep it simple.Replace the old electrolytic capacitors with fresh electrolytic capacitors.Some owners prefer to use foil caps, sometimes even very expensive ones but it is my experiencethat 99,8% of enhancing the sound quality comes from simply renewing the caps andonly the last 0,2% (if any at all) from upgrading the caps.I can't tell much of a difference from fresh standard bipolar caps to foils, to be honest. Not on these speakers anyway.From putting together kits of both types, I can tell that not many owners heard a difference either.Foil kits are no longer made for the same reason. Besides, the speakers and filters were designed for electrolytic capacitors. Feel free to experiment but, being onethat likes to give out safe advice, I would tell you to just fit standard bipolar caps. Unless coils or resistors look burned or otherwise damaged, I would leave them alone.They'll be fine and they don't wear. If you like to do an upgrade, it should be to the input and woofer leads.They are alright from factory but a little more gauge here will never hurt.No need to go upwards of 0,75mm2 and no need to do the midrange and tweeter leads. Martin
Thanks Martin, I"ll take this advice and get with you for a cap kit.
Well, a bit of a delay. I forgot I needed to reglue the 4 trim bezel rings to the woofers before I could reinstall them. So that's been done and waiting for the glue to set up.
They are done. Finished up nicely. It's a bit late, going to savor the first listen for tomorrow. Here's a few pics in the work room. Will move to the main listening room tomorrow.
The woofers are not glued to the bezel rings from factory.They just stick immensely when you try to take them apart after 30 years.
They look great, hope you enjoy your speakers.
Thanks Martin - well they are now! A small bead of the foam glue was used, oh well, will have to deal with that in about 20 years:)
more pic...
Thanks - finished them up late last evening. Need to move them into the listening room today and take them out for a test drive. Will let you all know later this afternoon. Going to hook them up to my vintage McIntosh MC30 mono block tube power amplifier pair in my main system.
Moved them into the main listening room - pics attached. I know, WAY too much stuff in there to fully enjoy the sound of anything properly. This audio hobby is quite addicting. I have them hooked up to my McIntosh mono blocks and they sound sweet.
Anyway, they really sound fantastic! Great mids and highs and rather efficient by comparison to some of my others. I have listened to a few CDs - Larry Carlton, Keb Mo, Steely Dan, and they really sound nice. Placement is crappy in front of my prized JBL Sovereigns for the test drive, so hard to tell on the true bass response, but it was nice and the woofers are pumping like they should.
I want to thank the great members here - Sonavor, Soren, Dillen, and the others for the great advice to bring these back to life again.
Thats some room you have there, amazing, I´ll use the pics to show my wife, when she argue about too much audio, I have a lot less than you
On some earlier pics one can see the woodwork on the boxes, just beautiful. All in all very good job, I enjoyed following your thread.
Now, do me a favor, if you change the caps in the crossovers (you will have to, if not now, later), change in one speaker first, leave the other as is for comparing, and then come back here with a report about the test. Until then ENJOY.
Good job. The MS-150's look like new. The McIntosh tubes look great as well. I haven't jumped into collecting those yet but have them on my radar. I have too many other pieces I have to clear out first though. I found the MS-150's to effortlessly pump out a lot of sound too. As soon as I get a couple of things out of the way on my bench I will refurbish my MS-150.2 pair.
-sonavor
Søren Mexico: Thats some room you have there, amazing, I´ll use the pics to show my wife, when she argue about too much audio, I have a lot less than you
Not a week goes by that I don't copy a picture from somewhere and send it to the FS with a note that says, "See? I'm not crazy."
Congratulations on your refurb. Happy listening.
Thanks guys, I enjoyed sharing "the lab" with you - we are all enthusiasts, some have been bitten more or less by the disease! Guess over the past few years, I"ve been bitten more:).
My audio hobby started In high school wood shop class where I built speakers. Used JBL and KEF drivers back in the day. I still have an original set of cabinets I built and they are in my 16 year old son's room - vintage Pioneer receiver fed by his i devices.
In the last few years, I began to really enjoy the vintage audio hobby again, exploring the different brands, researching the builds, restoring what I can, learning about more, and putting gear back into use again.
The "lab" started out as our home theater about 6 years ago when we moved in and didn't have any 2 channel audio in it. The room is great for watching TV, movies, sports, games, and is supported by a 1080p projector, 9 foot screen, and a dedicated 5.1 Bose system (fine for the video piece) but the rest is all 2 channel audio. I wind up down there nearly every night to unwind and try to listen to some music while down there daily too.
My wife is cool with this affliction as long as it stays contained (for the most part) in that room. We have another couple of "reasonable" audio systems in other parts of the house too. My kids think it's a bit much in the lab.....I agree, will pare it down now that I've collected and know what I really like.
Thanks again for all of the great advice and assistance on these marvelous MS150 speakers. I think they sound wonderful and the aesthetic statement, styling, is awesome. I am officially a B&O fan, along with McIntosh, KEF, JBL, Carver, and a few others.
I finally got the Beovox MS150.2 pair restored and back in service. I used Martin's recap kit for the crossovers. The top of the picture is the before. The bottom part is the after.
Here are the new surrounds on the left speaker. They work great now. I did cut open the dust caps and use my acetate shims to align the cones before gluing down the surrounds to the baskets. I just feel safer that way. I use Aleene's clear glue to re-seal the dust caps where I made the incision. All of the Aleene's glue should dry clear but I like using the type that also starts out clear for this application. The speaker to the right is my original MS150 speaker. I currently have both sets of speakers connected to the Beomaster 8000. They really fill the room with sound.
The MS150.2 pair of speakers had some noticeable scratches on the tops of the cabinets. Søren Mexico gave me a quick tutorial on refinishing the rosewood veneer and I think the cabinets came out great.
I love the rosewood grain, and the way the Beo carpenters made the veneer out of one piece so top and sides follow the grain pattern.
Good job John, congrats
Søren Mexico: I love the rosewood grain, and the way the Beo carpenters made the veneer out of one piece so top and sides follow the grain pattern. Good job John, congrats
Thanks. As good as these speakers look...my wife says I can't keep all four in the same room. It's a good thing I didn't get the third pair out and work on them :) (maybe I'll get to them next year).
Looking great and nice work on the crossovers and the cabinets, looking like new!
I used some Meguiars Supreme Shine protectant on the black fronts and it really made them pop! It is an Armour All like product and evens out and deepens the black finish.
indyaudio: Looking great and nice work on the crossovers and the cabinets, looking like new! I used some Meguiars Supreme Shine protectant on the black fronts and it really made them pop! It is an Armour All like product and evens out and deepens the black finish.
Cool, I will pick up a bottle. I was already looking for something to treat some Beovox RL60.2 and RL140 speaker cabinets. The stuff that Leslie uses isn't sold in the USA. That Meguiars will probably do a good job on those too.
Thanks,Sonavor
Nice tip, thanks.
Great work, John.
I've actually "downsized" my speakers. Most listening is done on with the smaller Beovox in my collection, and the bigger pieces have been banished to the garage. Perhaps I'm getting too old?????
Great workmanship John! It's fun to do, right?
Brengen & Ophalen
Leslie: Great workmanship John! It's fun to do, right?
You bet, Leslie. This is very rewarding work. To think that these speakers might have ended up in a dump and now listening and looking at them all fixed up, it is a really nice feeling.
Sonavor, I'm finally getting around to recapping my crossovers. I opened one up last night to check the capacitor values, and oddly enough, this crossover is variation on the other 3 versions you posted. It has a total of 10 caps, including the little one in the Protection circuit.
Just thought I'd share - these are MS150s.
I'll post impressions of sound once I get them redone in the coming weeks.
Your crossover board looks like it is the same as my original MS-150 speaker (the type with the finished rosewood on the back of the speaker), with the difference being you have a capacitor at the top-center of your board (using the orientation of your picture). What is that capacitor value? Is it a 22uF, 100V bipolar type?
yep, that's a 22 uf (all are 100V non polarized) & yes, same finished rosewood on the back side
Looking at the picture (earlier in this thread) of my original MS150 crossover, I am wondering if my crossovers are missing that capacitor. It wasn't in the recap kit I got from Martin so it must have been the first change on those speakers. I believe the MS150 speakers with rosewood on the backs were first generation. Those were followed my MS150's that did not have rosewood on the back. Then came the MS150.2 model. Those had a different cross-over, different mid-range and different padding inside.
I currently have my original MS150 and the MS150.2 speakers side by side and connected to the Beosystem 8000. I am not able to tell a difference in the sound by my ears (not scientific of course). They both sound good to me. I still need to restore the third set of MS150's. I have another complete Beosystem 8000 (including the SC80 cabinet) that I am going to work on later this year. That will give me another set to compare with.
It's really hard to tell, I would think it wasn't missing it, maybe just a variation of the theme?
Would you happen to know the value of that tiny little capacitor in the protection circuit? Unfortunately, I missed it and the speakers are back together now. In your opinion, how critical is it to replace if I'm recapping the rest? Not even sure what it does, any insight on that would be great, thanks much!
The protection circuit has two electrolytic caps. The maroon colored, radial capacitor is a 100uF, 63v polarized cap. The smaller, gold colored, axial capacitor is a 1uF, 63v polarized cap.
All of my MS150 series speakers I acquired in non-working state. Since they are quite a job to open up, I recapped the crossover boards when I had the speakers apart to work on the woofer surrounds. So I can't really speak to how critical it is to recapping them other than it was recommended and I preferred to not go back in to the speakers again. I own quite a lot of speakers and most of them have no protection circuit. I have yet to ever blow out a pair of speakers...maybe I don't listen to music loud enough :)
If your speakers sound okay and the protection circuit isn't cutting the sound off when it shouldn't you are probably fine leaving them as they are.