ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Millemissen: Have a look at this presentation here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGflRi7JCFU&feature=youtube_gdata_player ----@Puncher - maybe it then becomes understandable, why the 'knob' is so basic.----
Have a look at this presentation here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGflRi7JCFU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
----@Puncher - maybe it then becomes understandable, why the 'knob' is so basic.----
He may become a great CEO, he may even be a great presenter in Danish, but, to be honest, I think he does the products a disservice when presenting in English - either he's winging it ,or else he's just not polished enough!
Nothing he's said about his knob has persuaded me it serves any purpose beyond what a wifi enabled Beo4 could achieve (that could also do the IR stuff and would have many other uses in a B&O household). Until they announce killer reason to have it, the knob seems like fluff.
Ban boring signatures!
Tue tells us that B&O has found out that the way the Essence with the 'knob' control works, is what we do/want to do in 80-90% of the time.
That makes 10-20% for the rest of the time/of us wanting something else/something more.
Phil wrote above:
"What we are all waiting for is a sound system that's hidden, and that can be controlled with a remote with a screen that allows you to comfortably pick a source and a song in a playlist.
What they should really do, is develop a tablet type remote based on Android (I am not an android fan, but it is open source) and customise it so that the only app that's on it is the Beomusic app. Add a few external physical buttons for volume control and play/pause/skip. Make it that the tablet wakes up when moved or touched (like the Beo5) and immediately displays the app without having to swipe/unlock, et voila!"
Is that the descibtion of the system for the 10-20%?
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
PhilLondon:What they should really do, is develop a tablet type remote based on Android (I am not an android fan, but it is open source) and customise it so that the only app that's on it is the Beomusic app. Add a few external physical buttons for volume control and play/pause/skip. Make it that the tablet wakes up when moved or touched (like the Beo5) and immediately displays the app without having to swipe/unlock, et voila!
Hurrah!!!!
As I've advocated since the release of the ill conceived BS/BM5 - we need a modern day MCP ......... not an app on someone's else's hardware - a proper B&O AV controller, that doesn't do FB or Twitter, is always "alive" and is the best AV controller it can be. Nothing more, nothing less!!
Puncher: Nothing he's said about his knob has persuaded me it serves any purpose beyond what a wifi enabled Beo4 could achieve (that could also do the IR stuff and would have many other uses in a B&O household). Until they announce killer reason to have it, the knob seems like fluff.
For a new costumer (B&O need new costumers) why bother buying a Beo4 for lots of money, if you are good to go with this 'knob'?
Puncher is just not in the target group for the Essece-thing - that is all.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Millemissen:Is that the descibtion of the system for the 10-20%?
Only if these 10 - 20% of people are the B&O customers who know and remember what it's like to be in control of everything, anytime and find it unacceptable to "wake up" a phone or tablet, search and select an app, and then wait for it to load before doing what you needed to do! Heaven forbid an incoming email or phone call while searching - I seriously hope that B&O don't see the generic app on generic, third party hardware as a serious solution to the AV control future!!
@Chris
If you can live with TDSOTM being played with 'gaps', then yes.
I prefer listening to stuff like TDSOTM from a cd-player.
But (don't tell anyone) I am an 'oldfashioned' guy..
Younger/new costumers would not care about that!
Puncher:10 - 20% of people
It's 10%-20% of usage case, not of people.
Means 80%-90% of the time you reach your remote to turn the music on/off, volume up/down, and skip a song or come back to listen to it again. 10%-20% of the time you reach the remote to switch source/select playlist.
So you use the Essence 'knob' for the 80%-90% time, and your iPad for the rest.
I have to say it does make sense, but it's such a departure from a brand who's been selling complete products for so long. And also, it will be compared to a Sonos system which comes with wall remotes which have screens and are probably cheaper! Again B&O will be seen as selling inferior products at a superior price.
Beoworld app with direct photo upload and emoticons.
Puncher: Millemissen:Is that the descibtion of the system for the 10-20%? Only if these 10 - 20% of people are the B&O customers who know and remember what it's like to be in control of everything, anytime and find it unacceptable to "wake up" a phone or tablet, search and select an app, and then wait for it to load before doing what you needed to do! Heaven forbid an incoming email or phone call while searching...
Only if these 10 - 20% of people are the B&O customers who know and remember what it's like to be in control of everything, anytime and find it unacceptable to "wake up" a phone or tablet, search and select an app, and then wait for it to load before doing what you needed to do! Heaven forbid an incoming email or phone call while searching...
But that is not what people do - and certainly not what B&O intends to do with the Essence.
People are creating 'playlists' - long playlist that last all day, or picking playlists of thier 'friend on their social network' to let the music play continously.
Just start in the morning - and you will need to do nothing but skipping a track once in a while.
I'm not that kind of 'user' (I see that you aren't either) - this is not for us!
We can only hope that B&O makes a music system for the 10-20% too.
Or we will have to find our own solutions (which I am sure we could).
PhilLondon: Puncher:10 - 20% of people It's 10%-20% of usage case, not of people. Means 80%-90% of the time you reach your remote to turn the music on/off, volume up/down, and skip a song or come back to listen to it again. 10%-20% of the time you reach the remote to switch source/select playlist. So you use the Essence 'knob' for the 80%-90% time, and your iPad for the rest.
OK - you may be right!
But that depends on how good this new app, the 'BeoMusic' app will be.
If it is good, it might even be worth thinking of a 'dedicated' iPad/Mini for it
Millemissen:@ Chris If you can live with TDSOTM being played with 'gaps', then yes. I prefer listening to stuff like TDSOTM from a cd-player. But (don't tell anyone) I am an 'oldfashioned' guy.. Younger/new costumers would not care about that! MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
PhilLondon: Millemissen:"What you can control with the 'knob' is just some very basic stuff. Not much more than with the controls on the Playmaker/Beo4 - but in a nicer way." Raeuber:I agree with you. I agree with you too on the fact that it's similar to the PlayMaker, I never said it wasn't. PlayMaker to my knowledge couldn't skip tracks, not play Spotify nor Internet Radio, but again I agree and I realise that you'll need an app to initiate it. If you pause it, you can restart any of these 3 services days later from the Remote without using the app. It'll restart the same DLNA playlist, Spotify Paylist or Internet radio. And no Raueber, it won't wake up the app. As an app developer, I can tell you that apple doesn't allow that. P.
Millemissen:"What you can control with the 'knob' is just some very basic stuff. Not much more than with the controls on the Playmaker/Beo4 - but in a nicer way."
Not much more than with the controls on the Playmaker/Beo4 - but in a nicer way."
Raeuber:I agree with you.
I agree with you too on the fact that it's similar to the PlayMaker, I never said it wasn't. PlayMaker to my knowledge couldn't skip tracks, not play Spotify nor Internet Radio, but again I agree and I realise that you'll need an app to initiate it.
If you pause it, you can restart any of these 3 services days later from the Remote without using the app. It'll restart the same DLNA playlist, Spotify Paylist or Internet radio.
And no Raueber, it won't wake up the app. As an app developer, I can tell you that apple doesn't allow that.
P.
The way I use my Playmaker is this. I have PC running iTunes that I leave up and running in another room. I use my iPad with the Remote app to wirelessly look at my iTunes stuff on the PC and stream from the PC to the Playmaker, including music, and internet radio. I also use the iPad to stream Spotify to the Playmaker. I have a charging stand on a shelf behind the couch, when I have selected what I want to listen to I just sit the iPad on the charger and let it do its thing. So I have internet radio, all my music, and Spotify from one convenient place. I can either use the Beo4 or 5 to control my BS9000 volume, or I can get really lazy and use the iPad volume slider. Not perfect maybe but darned close, at least for me. I do have to turn on the BS9000 first, but life is hard...
It will be interesting to see the B&O app, that will make or break this as far as I'm concerned, but I also think this is a good approach for B&O. It fills the needs of a lot of new customers I think, they need to attract a new group of buyers who aren't laden with legacy gear but who are starting from scratch. I know that if I weren't laboring under a lot of legacy gear, a lot of the new gear would actually be a better fit for my lifestyle and house now, but I'm not going to dump what I have to get new. So I'm bridging as best I can.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Chris Townsend:I sold all my CDs the day after getting Spotify, and I'm 44. I don't know a single sole at work who still goes out and buys them. Sonos is the big techno thing to have at work, closely followed by Bose!
That was very brave to do that. My many years of IT experience taught me that one can only expect more change. In the Samsung keynote presentation, they said change is going to accelerate. I think Spotify will be absorbed by another company. In the meantime, I like it too.
I am not really very sure of this new Essence product. Tue was not very enthusiastic in his presentation.
Millemissen:If it is good, it might even be worth thinking of a 'dedicated' iPad/Mini for it
You glue the Essence 'knob' on it, and it'll almost look like a portable BS5
Chris Townsend:I sold all my CDs the day after getting Spotify, and I'm 44. I don't know a single sole at work who still goes out and buys them.
I am a Spotify/WiMP/NAS-streaming guy - heavy-using my Playmaker/iPad-combo.
But DLNA is not supporting 'gapless play'.
WiMP HiFi (unfortunately) neither, and (for me) Spotify is for discovering music (I know there are different views on whether the quality of Spotify is good enough for being your prefered source).
There are certain CD's I have to buy - and play on my CD-player (mostly concept- or live-albums).
But this is a bit off-topic for this thread.
wtlc2zpx:You glue the Essence 'knob' on it, and it'll almost look like a portable BS5
WOW - this must be the fastest evolving thread ever!!!
You don't get all comments read, if you also want to write some youself
10 pages already - I must go to sleep now - sigh.
It is 11.37 PM here now.
Millemissen:I am a Spotify/WiMP/NAS-streaming guy - heavy-using my Playmaker/iPad-combo. But DLNA is not supporting 'gapless play'. WiMP HiFi (unfortunately) neither, and (for me) Spotify is for discovering music (I know there are different views on whether the quality of Spotify is good enough for being your prefered source). There are certain CD's I have to buy - and play on my CD-player (mostly concept- or live-albums). MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Millemissen:WOW - this must bethe fastest evolving thread ever!!! You don't get all comments read, if you also want to write some youself 10 pages already - I must go to sleep now - sigh. MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Raeuber: Millemissen: @ Chris If you can live with TDSOTM being played with 'gaps', then yes. I prefer listening to stuff like TDSOTM from a cd-player. But (don't tell anyone) I am an 'oldfashioned' guy.. Younger/new costumers would not care about that! MM The real 'oldfashioned' guys hear TDSOTM only from vinyl, and that way it sounds best!
Millemissen: @ Chris If you can live with TDSOTM being played with 'gaps', then yes. I prefer listening to stuff like TDSOTM from a cd-player. But (don't tell anyone) I am an 'oldfashioned' guy.. Younger/new costumers would not care about that! MM
@ Chris
The real 'oldfashioned' guys hear TDSOTM only from vinyl, and that way it sounds best!
Dear Räuber -
Had to answer that one.
Actually TDSOTM (flac-ripped) is on my NAS. I use the Logitech Media Server (Slimserver) and my Squeezebox through the Playmaker/A.AUX-in of my BS4500 to play it - gapless!
The LMS can do that!
But again - this is offtopic-stuff.
Good night - MM
Millemissen: For a new costumer (B&O need new costumers) why bother buying a Beo4 for lots of money, if you are good to go with this 'knob'?
As it's £610? Everyone has overlooked this. Ok, there may be users wanting this who do not own a Beo4 etc, but the PM is only £350 and does mostly the same thing. Maybe we aren't the target customer, but it's going to be a hard sell convincing new users they need to fork out £4K on the BL18 speakers, another £400 on the a Transmitter 1 and then a further £610.....on the "knob" to control. Of course, I'd love to be convinced otherwise!
moxxey: Millemissen: For a new costumer (B&O need new costumers) why bother buying a Beo4 for lots of money, if you are good to go with this 'knob'? As it's £610? Everyone has overlooked this. Ok, there may be users wanting this who do not own a Beo4 etc, but the PM is only £350 and does mostly the same thing. Maybe we aren't the target customer, but it's going to be a hard sell convincing new users they need to fork out £4K on the BL18 speakers, another £400 on the a Transmitter 1 and then a further £610.....on the "knob" to control. Of course, I'd love to be convinced otherwise!
Agree - it adds nothing, other than the shiny silver wheel (that needs to be used with an app on someone else's hardware) - a relatively easy and poor offering!
And I thought Phil and I finally agreed (on page 8) that it does a bit more than the Playmaker.
If this 'a bit more' is enough for someone, is a decision that noone can take for him
I guess we will have to try it out - with the app - when it goes on sale.
It is a lot of money - but I am confident that there are some guys out there willing to pay for it.
Time will tell.
I get gapless play using AirPlay and my iTunes to Playmaker setup. I didn't know DLNA couldn't do gapless?! Isn't that a function of the implementation? Or is it inherent to DLNA for some reason?
Was just a nap!
Before crawling into my bed
Puncher: moxxey: Millemissen: For a new costumer (B&O need new costumers) why bother buying a Beo4 for lots of money, if you are good to go with this 'knob'? As it's £610? Everyone has overlooked this. Ok, there may be users wanting this who do not own a Beo4 etc, but the PM is only £350 and does mostly the same thing. Maybe we aren't the target customer, but it's going to be a hard sell convincing new users they need to fork out £4K on the BL18 speakers, another £400 on the a Transmitter 1 and then a further £610.....on the "knob" to control. Of course, I'd love to be convinced otherwise! Agree - it adds nothing, other than the shiny silver wheel (that needs to be used with an app on someone else's hardware) - a relatively easy and poor offering!
Indeed, Phil explained it perfect on page 8 and I already said it on page 2. The Essence is useless without the app. Compare it with a Sonos or Squuezebox. The apps that control these devices made these devices so successful, not the device itself.
So in potential, the Essence has less limitations then a Sonos or Squeezebox or PM.
- The knob is just some extra controls that are lacking on a Sonos or Squeezebox
- It adds Airplay which Sonos and Squeezebox don't have, and the PM only has.
- It doesn't have the 65000 tracks limitation and max resolution of 16/44 of the Sonos.
- It has internetradio and Spotify embedded, where the PM is depending from Airplay and 3rd party apps from mobile devices.
- Better built-in DAC???
In fact, it is the app's user-interface that will decide if the Essence will be a succes or not.
DoubleU: Indeed, Phil explained it perfect on page 8 and I already said it on page 2. The Essence is useless without the app. Compare it with a Sonos or Squuezebox. The apps that control these devices made these devices so successful, not the device itself. So in potential, the Essence has less limitations then a Sonos or Squeezebox or PM. - The knob is just some extra controls that are lacking on a Sonos or Squeezebox - It adds Airplay which Sonos and Squeezebox don't have, and the PM only has. - It doesn't have the 65000 tracks limitation and max resolution of 16/44 of the Sonos. - It has internetradio and Spotify embedded, where the PM is depending from Airplay and 3rd party apps from mobile devices. - Better built-in DAC??? In fact, it is the app's user-interface that will decide if the Essence will be a succes or not.
A good summary in my mind.
I think B&O (of course) is aiming at new customers, offering them a pair of Beolabs and the Essence. For us "fully equipped" B&O lovers, the Essence does not add much. I could replace my Playmaker for the Essence, but I connect the PM through my Beocenter 2 and my link system and already have a remote (that I also need for my Beovision).
I think we should be happy that B&O add a good solution that hopefully will attract new customers to the brand.
Add Spotify Connect to the PM would be good though.
Livingroom: BL3, BL11, BV11-46 Kitchen: Beosound 1 GVA, Beocom 2 Bathroom: M3 Homeoffice: M3, Beocom 2 Library: Beosound Emerge, Beocom 6000 Bedroom: M5, Essence remote Travel: Beoplay E8 2.0, Beoplay EQ, Beoplay Earset
The thing is Puncher, as B&O users, we completely overlook the thinking of the general (non-B&O) customer. On one hand, we're arguing everyone is moving to the free (or extremely cheap £9.99/month premium) Spotify, thus saving a lot of money from not having to buy CDs, but on the other hand we're casually explaining to each other that these new customers are going to walk in to a B&O store and demand to pay over £4K for a pair of speakers and nearly another £1K a pair of control devices. Who has that kind of money these days? No-one under 40!
I can see it now "I'm new to B&O. I follow the model of saving money by listening to music on Spotify for free, but I want to spend £5K on a pair of speakers and controller, please!". The two don't add up. They are mutually exclusive, for most younger people, in my eyes.
I just don't see where these customers are going to come from, frankly. I know some hyper-sensitive fans on here will disagree - that's your prerogative - but I think it's fanciful thinking.
moxxey: The thing is Puncher, as B&O users, we completely overlook the thinking of the general (non-B&O) customer. On one hand, we're arguing everyone is moving to the free (or extremely cheap £9.99/month premium) Spotify, thus saving a lot of money from not having to buy CDs, but on the other hand we're casually explaining to each other that these new customers are going to walk in to a B&O store and demand to pay over £4K for a pair of speakers and nearly another £1K a pair of control devices. Who has that kind of money these days? No-one under 40! I can see it now "I'm new to B&O. I follow the model of saving money by listening to music on Spotify for free, but I want to spend £5K on a pair of speakers and controller, please!". The two don't add up. They are mutually exclusive, for most younger people, in my eyes. I just don't see where these customers are going to come from, frankly. I know some hyper-sensitive fans on here will disagree - that's your prerogative - but I think it's fanciful thinking.
I do think that you have a good point here. The major problem is that most people can start with the cheapest sonos system and are easily "locked in". "I already have one sonos unit, quit like it, why would I spend 4K and lose the compatibility with my current set-up?" IMHO B&O should follow the same path. Spending 4K on a sound system tomorrow is hard to justify for many people, but smooth 4K over a few year and there are a lot of people that can afford it. They should build an entry level device, fully compatible with other B&O and non-B&O products, maybe even able to drive passive speakers. Entry level should not be 2K but really something comparable to the competition. This way, people are able to replace their current audio equipment one by one. This enables people to "experience bang and olufsen sound" after which they are hopefully locked in". This new essence unit is worthless for locking in new customers, the problem lies with the product behind stand alone. People buy an essence, two beolab speakers and that's it?! There are no further possibilities to "grow".
Wouter
I am sure using Spotify and other music services nowaday is NOT just a matter of saving money.
It is much more about changes in lifestyle, in listening habits.
Not only 'the poor guys' are using Spotify - it is those who have a more passive approach to listening to music.
Today music is intended to be something that is anywhere to 'create the right mood'!
This is quite different from what many of the BeoWorlders/the 'old school B&O-users' mostly do (or perhaps did).
for many peopleMost of us are more into active listening - picking the album or the playlist, we need, when we need it.
So the Essence may for many people be the right way of controlling these new 'listening habits' - if it pleases you or not.
I am sure some of them have the money to spend on it too.
Wouter: People buy an essence, two beolab speakers and that's it?! There are no further possibilities to "grow".
Why not?
You can buy as many of them as you want/need in your house (if you have the money - of cource).
And maybe some day we will even see a small 'sound system' with speakers and a built-in Essence-'knob'?
Just like the BeoLit 12 or the A8 of today.
Buy one for the kitchen, one for the bath....
Millemissen: Why not? You can buy as many of them as you want/need in your house (if you have the money - of cource). MM
There is no possibility to connect other B&O products. You only can expand the system horizontally to other rooms.
Millemissen: And maybe some day we will even see a small 'sound system' with speakers and a built-in Essence-'knob'? Just like the BeoLit 12 or the A8 of today. Buy one for the kitchen, one for the bath....
That would be great!
Wouter: There is no possibility to connect other B&O products. You only can expand the system horizontally to other rooms.
i suppose (I hope) that you can connect it - just like the Playmaker - to an A.AUX-in of an audiomaster (or to the lin-in of the NL/ML-converter) from the PowerLink-out.
That was with the Playmaker not officially a feature - but was described as a possibility later.