ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
This is my first post and I’d like to apologize upfront for asking a question that I think is similar to ones that have come up before. Nonetheless, after researching through various postings in both the current and archived forum, I’ve not found an exact answer and so thought to ask it here – would anyone be willing to give me your thoughts on the pros and cons of the Beogram 4002, 8000 and 8002 in comparison to one another?
As background, I’m looking to replace (well, maybe “add another turntable in addition to” might be a more honest phrasing) a Beogram RX that’s given me problem free service for 30 years and would like to obtain something that would be a meaningful upgrade. The RX has been a wonderful, basic deck that got a new lease on life recently by virtue of a Sound Smith SMMC 2 pickup but I’ve never lost the desire for one of the top-line B&O turntables that, frankly, were beyond my means all those years ago. After recently deciding it was time for a mid-life crisis and figuring that the more usual choices of sports car or mistress would be too dangerous or too expensive, respectively (or maybe it’s the other way around?), I’ve instead settled on trying to build that stereo system I always dreamed of in my youth. That choice, incidentally, also seemed to go over better with the wife. In any event, I’ve found professionally restored versions for sale of the aforementioned models but am having trouble deciding between them. My objective is improved sound quality compared to the RX, along with reasonable assurance of reliability for years to come if treated kindly, while retaining the clean elegance and ease of use that all three of these models have in abundance. The turntable will connect to a Parasound P7 preamplifier having an internal, RIAA-compliant, phono module, rather than go through a B&O system in case equipment compatibility is a consideration factor. I understand that the RX was specifically built for compatibility with non-B&O systems, and it mates well with the Parasound, but believe the 4002, 8000 or 8002 should be fine too if used with an appropriate DIN-to-RCA adapter cable?
In researching through these forums and elsewhere, I’ve come up with the following short list of pros and cons for each model in relation to the others. If any of the following is wrong or if there are other relevant considerations, please let me know. It was sometimes hard to tell with a few of the following points if the comments were borne out by firsthand experience (e.g. platter rib concern).
Beogram 4002
Pros: Much sturdier construction and easier to service/repair yourself. Better torque. MMC20-series pickups may be more robust than the later MMC1-5 design.
Cons: Older and therefore possibly having a more limited remaining life-span (hopefully mitigated by the restoration work). May be somewhat noisier in operation. Belts will require periodic replacement. SMMC20-series replacement pickups, if needed, are a bit more expensive than the SMMC 1-4 line and don’t match the tone arm as well as the MMC20EN or MMC20CL pickups. Platter ribs not as supportive as the 8002 platter and may cause surface dampening problems (at least according to a Hi-Fi World article). Performance specifications lower rated than the 8000-series (at least on paper).
Beogram 8000
Pros: Tangential drive design eliminates need to replace belts and results in fewer moving parts to break. Better specs compared to Beogram 4002 (not sure if that translates to real-world sound performance differences). Quieter operation.
Cons: Plastic Tacho disc degrades over time (mitigated by replacement with metal disc as part of restoration process). Lower platter torque than 4002. Poorer build quality. Dust cover hinge design bad and prone to breaking. MMC20-series pickups limitations as described above. Similar platter rib issue as 4002 (according to Hi-Fi World article). Microprocessor out of production and failure will deadline the entire unit.
Beogram 8002
Pros: Same as 8000 plus metal tacho disc and anti-static platter. MMC1-5 series pickups are newer and may therefore have longer life remaining. SMMC 1-4 replacement options are a better aesthetic match to the original pickups. Newer and so parts may have more life remaining compared to Beogram 8000.
Cons: Same as 8000, minus tacho disc and platter rib concerns. MMC1-5 series pickups may be less robust than MMC20-series.
Again, appreciate any corrections, additions or comments to the above. Sorry for the very lengthy post but thanks in advance for any feedback. Also happy to provide additional information if I left out anything useful and the above didn’t already put you to sleep!
I am impressed; you have done your homework.
I maybe in a really good position to answer your questions as well as those you failed to ask due to the fact that I own a Beogram 4000, 4002, 4004, 8000, and 8002.
These are all excellent turntables and in good serviced condition all would serve you exceptionally well. No exceptions!
Is one better than the other? Ask that question of five B&O fans and you will likely get five different answers.
For me the best of this group, although you didn’t mention the 4000 is the 4000, hands down. Unbelievably over-engineered, beautifully built, and the style is in a class by its own. That said, it is a nightmare to work on.
The 4002 is easier to work on, but NOT easy. When these turntables were new, it was “fairly” simple, but as they age, parts wear, screws loosen, etc. You adjust one thing and two others require attention. It can be maddening. Also capacitors are now beginning to fail which will cause all sorts of issues.
The 8000 is indeed beltless, but mine groans when it starts (there goes quieter operation) and the dustcover is a flimsy embarrassment to those who designed it. CHEAP! It also had over 100 bad solder points which Martin so kindly took care of for me.
Yes, the Tacho disc degrades over time, but that is a snap to replace and replacements are readily available.
The 8002 is similar to the 8000, just updated. It can play a record up to ten times as opposed to the two plays of the 8000.
Is the MMC1 better than the MMC20CL…. no, I don’t think so, just smaller. They are both very, very good.
You mentioned that the MMC1-5 is newer than the MMC20CL (and others), but that is meaningless because the condition of the cartridge depends on use, how it was stored, and (sorry) dumb luck.
My best cartridge is the MMC20CL on my Beogram 4000, BUT it was my own discarded cartridge my dealer advised me to change, and I simply kept it.
I have a NOS MMC20CL on my Beogram 4004 which is fine, but doesn’t come near to my old cartridge. Why? On that, I am confident no one knows, it just is.
So what to do? First since all these turntables are wonderful equipment, you need to decide which one you like best: looks, belt-less, whatever your criteria.
Then search for the one you want in properly serviced condition. And when I say this I mean serviced by a professional, not “tested” meaning the seller knew enough to press the ON button.
With a well serviced Beogram, any of the ones you mentioned, I promise you, you can’t go wrong.
One codicil, make CERTAIN that your seller knows exactly how to ship your Beogram. All mine but one arrived in various states of damage, from slight to catastrophic!
Let us know what you decided to buy!
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
I've owned all three as well.
My vote is for the 8002, but only after it's been re-capped and re-flowed, and had a quick look at lubrication and basic settings. The 4002/4s scare me when I see how much old stuff there is to go wrong. They ARE built better than the 800x series, but more complex and finicky in my experience. And they don't look as cool as the eights in my eyes.
Once that is done, I would expect it to perform wonderfully for a very long time. And you already have a quite good cartridge for it. If you get an 8002 with a good cart, I'd just put the RX aside and sit on the second cart. Actually, I've had no problems with failures but I still horde them! Gotta give that up!
pfcs49: I've owned all three as well. My vote is for the 8002, but only after it's been re-capped and re-flowed, and had a quick look at lubrication and basic settings. The 4002/4s scare me when I see how much old stuff there is to go wrong. They ARE built better than the 800x series, but more complex and finicky in my experience. And they don't look as cool as the eights in my eyes. Once that is done, I would expect it to perform wonderfully for a very long time. And you already have a quite good cartridge for it. If you get an 8002 with a good cart, I'd just put the RX aside and sit on the second cart. Actually, I've had no problems with failures but I still horde them! Gotta give that up!
I don’t believe that age has much to do with it at this point; both 4000 and 8000 series Beograms are pretty senior.
A properly serviced 4000 series turntable will give its owners decades of enjoyment, as will the 8000 series.
Is the 8000 series less problematic? I will leave that to the experts here on this forum, but personally, I doubt it. True there is no belt to go bad, but the 4000 series was better built than its replacement... more mechanical, less electronic.
My Beogram 4004 is original, never worked on, and that alone gives me pause for concern. This is my really “good” turntable, never once needing even the slightest adjustment in over 7 years. However the wonderful performance does not negate the fact that this Beogram is WAY overdue for service. This is a warning.
The Beogram 4000 gets the title of most difficult to work upon, however a notable second place goes to the Beogram 4002…… the one Customs Canada thought was a bomb and treated it accordingly. It arrived in deplorable condition, really wacked during the “investigation.”
I have lost count how many times this turntable needed adjustments and one fix ruined something else. Hours and hours were spent on it, and still it misbehaved. HOURS!
However once I got everything right, it stayed right. I believe it has been five years since I needed to do anything with this turntable other then replace two missing feet. (Thank you Martin!)
My advice is DON’T buy an 8000 series because it is newer; buy it because you like it better than the 4000 series. If you prefer the 4000 series, buy one of them.
However buying any one of these turntables that hasn’t be serviced by someone who knows B&O products is a huge gamble because even unused: “My elderly aunt brought it but never used it….” the capacitors dry out, lubrication fails, etc.
My 4000, 8000, and 8002 have been rebuilt…. the 4002 and 4004 have not, so it is only a matter of time.
Jeff, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Truth be told, I was a bit embarrassed to ask the question, realizing the information is likely already on this forum and it’s mainly laziness that’s keeping me from digging further. I also realize that to a certain extent I’m asking people to figure out what it is I really want and then tell me what to do, which is patently unfair and my own responsibility. Your advice about picking an aspect I like best and then going from there is very good (and probably what I’ve been avoiding as they are all so very appealing in their own ways!). It’s also reassuring to hear that I won’t go wrong regardless of the choice. I was originally dead set on the Beogram 8002, as that was the top of the line model that was out of reach when I bought my RX in 1984 and what’s stayed in memory all these years. The hunt’s broaden a bit to now include the 8000 and 4002 after I found a reputable professional offering a restored example of each. Unfortunately, I’ve not seen a 4000 for sale on this side of the pond, as I probably wouldn’t be in this quandary if I had. As you've confirmed, it seems the one to get. I will definitely post an update when I figure out which way to go. Thanks again for the advice,
Charley
Hi Charley,
You should NEVER be embarrassed to ask a question, especially a well thought out question such as yours.
Let me share this, I never intended to have five Beograms, but like you I researched and acquired the 4002 and 4004….. and THEN I found the 4000. I have never seen a 4000 for sale in North America before or since.
The Beogram 4000 is my “crown jewel” and it is cared for accordingly.
I already had my old 8000 which I couldn’t get repaired, hence the replacement turntables. But then I found Martin and the 8000 was fixed….. and after that I wanted to try a 8002.
Back to you, you picked up on my most important point: You can NOT go wrong with any of your choices, and that is a fact.
If you have a local professional offering an 8000 and 4002, the choice is up to you.
Either way I have one more piece of advice, ONLY go with a MMC20CL cartridge. Enough said.
What about the MMC6000?
Hi,
I can only tell you about the Beogram 4000, 4002, and 6006/8000 that I have or had.
To me, the absolute best is the Beogram 4000, or perhaps an early 4002 with the heavy platter. When buying a 4002, it is always a good idea to ask for that information.
The Beogram 8000 has the advantage of accepting the 20CL, but I've read that the 8002 has a better platter. Not retrofittable to the 8000.
The 8000 is very silent and the growl is perfectly normal Jeff! It sounds fine. You'd be hardly pressed to tell them all apart sound wise anyway.
The MMC6000 has its followers, Adam Smith of Hifi News being one! Others say it's an impossible one, due to the special Pramanik profile of the tip - only the best condition records will play well. It was really intended for quadraphonic LPs.
I used to have a similar Shibata tip and it never was satisfactory. It was fantastic on good records though.
But then any MMC will be useable because the re-tipping job can be done according to budget. So a basic MMC20S can be fitted a 20CL tip is so desired.
Jacques
Hi Jacques,
I am delighted that you agree with me vis-à-vis the Beogram 4000 being the best of the best. I feel in such august company! It really is true, just put a 4000 next to a 4002 and there will be very, very little to say.
The MMC 6000 cartridge is an excellent one, very similar to the MMC20CL, only the 6000 is quadraphonic. The thing about the 6000 aside from its picky nature is that (in Peter’s words) it is the uncontested world’s best record cleaner.
You gotta know I keep my records clean, but never clean enough for the MMC 6000 which always finds more crud. I use a 6000 on my Beogram 8000 with good result….. except that you have to clean it after every five or six plays.
And yes I know the growl on the 8000 is normal. However thank you for the reassuring words. My 8000 is a cobbled collection of several 8000’s and at one time I was concerned that I hadn’t got it all quite right. Truth is for a “Frankenstein” turntable, it turned out rather well….. and thoroughly dependable after Martin completely rebuilt the motherboard.
Back to the MMC 6000, does that answer your question?
Hi Jeff,
thanks for all of your insightful information. I have two Beogram 4000s. Unfortunately one has a broken mount on the tonearm. The other one has noisy motors. Therefore, I've decided to make one out of the two. It's a pity but when the tonearm is broken, there's hardly any hope.
I have an integrated RIAA in my Beomaster 7000 and intend to use the Beogram 4000 with my Beosystem 7000 and Pentas. I'm curious finding out how that goes. Heven't read much on here about how combining old and new in that form works.
Greetings,
Kai,
who likes the MMC6000 very much ;-)
Jacques,
That's a very interesting piece of advice regarding the ability to retip an MMC pickup from one type to another within the same range. Thank you. I hadn't considered that but it definitely opens up more possibilities (hmm, I was half hoping for feedback that would eliminate one or another choice rather than give me more to consider ). The Beogram 4002 for sale comes fitted with an MMC20EN, whereas the Beogram 8000 has an MMC20CL (as well as all the original packing materials and paperwork, which is appealing in its own right). The 8002, which is still undergoing restoration, would be fitted with an MMC3 which, as was mentioned, I could replace with the SMMC2 I already have in hand. Knowing the MMC20EN could be retipped as an MMC20CL eliminates a possible discriminator between the 4002 and 8000. Ah decisions, decision. TIme for a little soul searching as to what aspect of these turntables really appeals to me most and then moving forward from there, as Jeff astutely recommended.
-Charley
In 1985 I purchased a TX, and, like you, lusted for the 8002 but could in no way afford it.
Fast forward to ~2008: we are finishing up converting our barn-house to make it WONDERFUL and to be fully accessible since my accident that paralyzed me at the waist in 95, and we are finishing off the "basement' stall area to be a place for all that is musical. Contemporaneously , I discover the internet, Beoworld, eBay, AK.......; I dig out all my system stuff that's been packed away since my accident, and set it up on sawhorses and a sheet of plywood. The TX feeds a Yamaha C85 preamp, the only other component I ever bought new. It is sublime! All my old friends, singing beautifully, but now, with the internet, many things I formerly lusted for are now within reach! Thus began my new pastime of running and sometimes restoring vintage audio stuff. One of my first acquisitions was an 8002, and from the start it was an adventure. The tonearm carriage coupling to the worm nut broke in transit and I had to disassemble it to repair that. Then, the inevitable aging capacitor thing struck and the deck would end play half-way through a great performance. That lead me here and to Dillen and you folk. Since then I have acquired many things I only dreamed of 30 years ago when I was 36! And I'm realizing I may be a little compulsive. I have restored and used 4002 and 8000, as well as several 8002s, my favorites. Maybe I favor the 8002 because it was what I wanted when I got the TX, or because it so resembles my old friend. Whatever, choose what you want. I'm sure you will be satisfied with any of them. As an aside, however-the TX is one hell of a competent deck in it's own right, almost like a re-designed 4002. I don't understand why it is given so little recognition.
All good turntables - but so is the RX! There is quite a bit more to go wrong in a tangential deck and listen blind and you will be hard pressed to tell them apart! However we buy often with our eyes and heart rather than ears so if you have set your heart on a tangential, get one. Which one?
I like the 4000 - despite being the oldest, it is by far the best engineered. Problematic to fix but once working, it is a joy. It is all metal and wood so will last for ever - however the aluminium chassis does not like damp and the metal corrodes - I have had one that has suffered from bad starage (not me!)
The 4002/4 is a slightly simpler version - sounds just the same despite being lighter - not quite as pretty in my view and the keypad gets wear marks eventually.
The 8000/2 has the big disadvantage of having a lot of cheap plastics - the hinge explodes and is not fixable except by replacement - and the replacement will eventually do the same. Never found the ribs made much difference - they do sound better with a rubber mat but that rather negates the reason for getting one in the first place. Very clever motor but at the end of the day, they all make the record go round accurately enough for me and I don't measure and can't hear minute differences.
Cartridges do however make a difference. I loved the MMC6000 in my youth - my favourite of all B&O cartridges. However I doubt there are many left in any sort of decent condition. The 20CL is a good substitute as is a Shibata tipped cartridge from Axel. The S has sibilance in spades in my experience and is the wrong colour!!
The TX or 6002 is a forgotten deck - in many ways a 4002 with the new styling and cheap plastics. I would personally get the 4002 but the 6002 is usually a real bargain.
Peter
Manbearpig: Hi Jeff, thanks for all of your insightful information. I have two Beogram 4000s. Unfortunately one has a broken mount on the tonearm. The other one has noisy motors. Therefore, I've decided to make one out of the two. It's a pity but when the tonearm is broken, there's hardly any hope. I have an integrated RIAA in my Beomaster 7000 and intend to use the Beogram 4000 with my Beosystem 7000 and Pentas. I'm curious finding out how that goes. Heven't read much on here about how combining old and new in that form works. Greetings, Kai, who likes the MMC6000 very much ;-)
Hi Kai,
Yes, it’s a pity to destroy one BG 4000 to get a wholly good one, but it sounds necessary.
If I had it to do all over, knowing what I do now, I would not have discarded the mechanicals/electronics of my original BG 8000. However the three shops that attempted to repair it (St. Petersburg, Florida, Victoria, BC, and Surrey BC) butchered it so badly that I was convinced at the time, it was un-repairable. But that was then, this is now….
And don’t get me wrong, the MMC 6000 is a wonderful cartridge, I love mine (which was a gift from the same friend you gave me his working BG 8000) it is just its annoying habit for collecting debris and then sounding TERRIBLE.
A few swipes with the Magic Eraser and it is back in top form…. but not for long.
Enjoy your combined BG 4000!
735boat: Jacques, That's a very interesting piece of advice regarding the ability to retip an MMC pickup from one type to another within the same range. Thank you. I hadn't considered that but it definitely opens up more possibilities (hmm, I was half hoping for feedback that would eliminate one or another choice rather than give me more to consider ). The Beogram 4002 for sale comes fitted with an MMC20EN, whereas the Beogram 8000 has an MMC20CL (as well as all the original packing materials and paperwork, which is appealing in its own right). The 8002, which is still undergoing restoration, would be fitted with an MMC3 which, as was mentioned, I could replace with the SMMC2 I already have in hand. Knowing the MMC20EN could be retipped as an MMC20CL eliminates a possible discriminator between the 4002 and 8000. Ah decisions, decision. TIme for a little soul searching as to what aspect of these turntables really appeals to me most and then moving forward from there, as Jeff astutely recommended. -Charley
Hi Charlie,
You want help narrowing your decision, buy the 4002. Between a BG 8000 and a BG 4002/4004 I would absolutely go for the better built and (in my opinion) esthetically more pleasing 4002.
Is it a 4002 with heavy platter and AC motor? It is the best.
Peter: All good turntables - but so is the RX! There is quite a bit more to go wrong in a tangential deck and listen blind and you will be hard pressed to tell them apart! However we buy often with our eyes and heart rather than ears so if you have set your heart on a tangential, get one. Which one? I like the 4000 - despite being the oldest, it is by far the best engineered. Problematic to fix but once working, it is a joy. It is all metal and wood so will last for ever - however the aluminium chassis does not like damp and the metal corrodes - I have had one that has suffered from bad starage (not me!) The 4002/4 is a slightly simpler version - sounds just the same despite being lighter - not quite as pretty in my view and the keypad gets wear marks eventually. The 8000/2 has the big disadvantage of having a lot of cheap plastics - the hinge explodes and is not fixable except by replacement - and the replacement will eventually do the same. Never found the ribs made much difference - they do sound better with a rubber mat but that rather negates the reason for getting one in the first place. Very clever motor but at the end of the day, they all make the record go round accurately enough for me and I don't measure and can't hear minute differences. Cartridges do however make a difference. I loved the MMC6000 in my youth - my favourite of all B&O cartridges. However I doubt there are many left in any sort of decent condition. The 20CL is a good substitute as is a Shibata tipped cartridge from Axel. The S has sibilance in spades in my experience and is the wrong colour!! The TX or 6002 is a forgotten deck - in many ways a 4002 with the new styling and cheap plastics. I would personally get the 4002 but the 6002 is usually a real bargain.
Hi Peter,
I am certain that you know how much I agree with your views on the Beogram 4000.
The esthetics aside (the 4000 is simply gorgeous!) there is a bit more to the difference between the 4000 and the 4002.
I especially like the single button for forward/fast forward and return/fast return. The 4002 has 2 separate buttons which are not nearly as refined or as easy to use. Nice touch having a single button where increased pressure gives you increased seep. Very nice touch!
Then there is the strobe. True you don’t need it much, but it is nice to have and is visually interesting.
I rather wish that my 4000 was a better example, but it didn’t have an easy life, repaired by a shop that didn’t understand it, and then shattered in shipment to me.
However in spite of it’s inauspicious past, this Beogram 4000 still manages to delight and remains my best performing turntable out of six.
One last thing, the buttons on the BG 4002/4004 do indeed suffer more than the 4000 for whatever reason, but I found using a cloth instead of your finger prevents this issue. Perhaps a bit OCD, but it works.
I'm on the road most of this week with only sporadic access to the internet but wanted to thank everyone for your continuing feedback while I had the chance this evening. Your comments have been very helpful and reading them has been a nice counterbalance to a long day of flight delays! Just a couple quick responses to a few comments:
Jacques: I'm not sure whether the 4002 has the AC motor and heavier platter or not but will ask the seller when I get back at the end of the week. Will let you know.
Pfcs49: What is it about the 8002's that make them your favorites?
Peter: Thank you for putting a number of things in perspective, including on the tangential drive. My education and initial career were in engineering and I still have a tendency to get enamored by specifications if not reined in by common sense. The speed accuracy of that drive is impressive; however, it sounds like it might not translate to any real audible difference. The technology is still pretty interesting, though. Your mention of exploding hinges caught my eye. Yikes! I'd read that the design was weak and tended to break but didn't realize it was quite that violent. Is there no other option than replacing a broken hinge with an identical copy? I'm guessing it's a unique design but wanted to ask.
735boat: I'm on the road most of this week with only sporadic access to the internet but wanted to thank everyone for your continuing feedback while I had the chance this evening. Your comments have been very helpful and reading them has been a nice counterbalance to a long day of flight delays! Just a couple quick responses to a few comments: Jacques: I'm not sure whether the 4002 has the AC motor and heavier platter or not but will ask the seller when I get back at the end of the week. Will let you know. Pfcs49: What is it about the 8002's that make them your favorites? Peter: Thank you for putting a number of things in perspective, including on the tangential drive. My education and initial career were in engineering and I still have a tendency to get enamored by specifications if not reined in by common sense. The speed accuracy of that drive is impressive; however, it sounds like it might not translate to any real audible difference. The technology is still pretty interesting, though. Your mention of exploding hinges caught my eye. Yikes! I'd read that the design was weak and tended to break but didn't realize it was quite that violent. Is there no other option than replacing a broken hinge with an identical copy? I'm guessing it's a unique design but wanted to ask. -Charley
As you know I have a Beogram 8000 and 8002…. and wouldn’t part with them for all the world.
That said many of us favour the Beogram 4000 and with good reason, but it is basically made of unobtainium. Gotta be realistic here.
Moving forward Peter says he can’t hear the difference between any of your choices and he is most likely right. The cartridge makes the BIG difference. (Luck will be involved.)
So I meant what I said; buy a Beogram 4002 or 4004. You have a 4002 offered locally, if it really is a good one, take my advice, buy it.
Beltless doesn’t mean an damn thing and it comes with so many cheap plastic parts. Buy the 4002!
I have had a number of the 8000 type deck - one 8000 and a 6002 suffered from the exploding hinge syndrome - the 8002 seemed fine when last seen! Once gone, one simply lost the spring in the lid. I just left as it was as I keep the lid closed when playing the record anyway. A pain when changing and cleaning records though. I couldn't see an easy fix as the parts were just lots of small bits of plastic.
As a long time re-seller of tangential turntables I have pretty much had them all.
The one I have kept throughout this time in my Beogram 6000 quad. This is essentially a 4002 with built in RIAA pre amp, excellent choice for my Beomaster 6500.
Currently using it with a NOS MMC20CL which I obtained as one of a number from a some time retired B&O dealer.
I have had a broken 20CL repaired by Axel and I can't tell the difference with my NOS example. I sold the Axel repaired one to a Beoworld member of some repute and he is delighted with it.
My recommendation is therefore an early 4002 with the heavy platter and a MMC20CL
Regards Graham
I have serviced, restored, lusted over and adored all the BeoGrams ever made.
My opinion is based on my familiarity with the technical aspects and build quality, not on whether one looks nicer than another.
My hands-down Tangential favorite is the BG4000 - it is solid, sounds fantastic, and after a proper restoration (by your's truly, of course) will last at least another 30 years, with no problems. I adore its mechanical and electronic circuit design and integrity.
It was designed to last, and WILL last, and you can use it all you want, without worrying whether it might die if you push this or that button.
Bearing in mind that the BG4000 is rarer than hen's teeth (and is priced appropriately), a first-generation BG4002 (AC motor - type 5501) is a respectable substitute.
My favorite Radial TT is the BG3000 - 1972 vintage.
My favorite Cartridge is Axel's nude Shibata rebuild - on any of the B&O machines.
Menahem
Update:
Well, I ended up deciding to get the Beogram 4002 this past weekend. It’s a type 5513 with an MMC20EN pickup and in excellent shape. Unfortunately, I waited until making up my mind on which way to go with this purchase before ordering a DIN-to-RCA cable from Steve at Sounds Heavenly, so it’ll be a bit longer before I can hook it up to the rest of the stereo to do any critical listening. Still, the sound coming directly off the pickup was clear (albeit very, very tiny!).
Thank you all again for your extremely helpful feedback, especially the reassurance that none of these options represented a bad choice. Jeff’s advice to pick what was most appealing and then go with that was particularly insightful, although it took a bit of reflection before figuring out what that was. The 8002 had nostalgic appeal from my past, very interesting drive technology and the advantage of being able to take one of my existing MMCx-series pickups. The 8000 was available immediately and in immaculate condition. Nonetheless, in the end the simple elegance and substantial build quality of the 4002 tipped the scales. Two days later and I’m still marveling at how well built it is. The 4000 must be truly impressive indeed!
Here are a couple of photos
Sorry, I'm having trouble figuring out how to insert multiple images into a single post and so will do this as separate ones for now.
And the last one
Very nice indeed and an excellent choice. I promise you, you will be delighted. (That said, find an excellent MMC20CL and you will be in heaven!)
Congratulations! It does seem to be in very good shape too! And in the rare dark veneer - like my own 4000 - to boot!
Has it got the AC motor then?
Those old MMC's could certainly do with a re-tip though. Listen for attenuated treble, the sign that it's had it.
Jeff is right: the CL is best. But a re-tip can do the same, only EN will still be etched on its body!
Lovely looking deck - I too like the dark finishes. Makes me think about getting the 4000 out again!
Thank you. I'm absolutely delighted with it so far and eagerly looking forward to getting the RCA adapter cable in order to do more than just look at it or play with the functions! It's a Type 5513, which I'm guessing has the smaller DC motor. I didn't remember to ask the seller but can follow back up with him or take a look inside if the physical difference between the two motors would be obvious.
Appreciate the feedback on the CL. The seller was open to doing an exchange for the EN when he had a CL available and I'll likely take him up on the offer. Re-tipping the EN might not be a bad option either, although your comment about the resultant mis-labeling made me laugh as it hit close to home. Seeing EN still on the body of an upgraded pickup would indeed bother me!
On a semi-related note, is there any general advice on how to minimize further wear marks on the keypad? The start button is the only one with any discollaration and it's light. I've been using a microfiber cloth when touching the keys so far but was wondering if there might be a more elegant solution?
- Charley
Paint it black?
That is the big advantage of the 4000 though - it doesn't mark.
735boat: Jacques, Thank you. I'm absolutely delighted with it so far and eagerly looking forward to getting the RCA adapter cable in order to do more than just look at it or play with the functions! It's a Type 5513, which I'm guessing has the smaller DC motor. I didn't remember to ask the seller but can follow back up with him or take a look inside if the physical difference between the two motors would be obvious. Appreciate the feedback on the CL. The seller was open to doing an exchange for the EN when he had a CL available and I'll likely take him up on the offer. Re-tipping the EN might not be a bad option either, although your comment about the resultant mis-labeling made me laugh as it hit close to home. Seeing EN still on the body of an upgraded pickup would indeed bother me! On a semi-related note, is there any general advice on how to minimize further wear marks on the keypad? The start button is the only one with any discollaration and it's light. I've been using a microfiber cloth when touching the keys so far but was wondering if there might be a more elegant solution? - Charley
The black Peters suggested is stunning, but the novelty might well grow old. Personal taste, don’t ya know? Completely up to you.
Both my Beogram 4002 and 4004 came to me with absolutely flawless key pads and to keep them that way I just use a cloth to press the keys. After seven years they both look exactly like they did the day they arrived.
If you are at all like me, you might not want to have to go for a cloth just to turn on your BG, so I just use the bottom end of my T-shirt…… works great and the Beograms don’t get any body oil to spoil the surface.
Peter,
That is absolutely true about the Beogram 4000. Why is that?
Peter:That is the big advantage of the 4000 though - it doesn't mark.
Peter, I must voice my protest against posting these beautiful max pixels pics, it activates the BeoVirus to very high levels.
Martin has warned me about the BG 4000, more difficult to service and repair than 4002 and 4, but your pics really get me hooked.
So Q: Are the problems mechanical or mainly electronically, or both. Mechanical problems I see as no problems, just a challenge, electronically is more difficult, but with the help of the forum manageable.
They are getting more pricy every day, and over here NON. I will give it a long thinker, and maybe try to get one on my next DK visit. I just love those pics.
This is going to be puzzle, I will have to pick it up and check it before buying, then calculate my weight limits for 2 persons on the the airways, as my son let me down and only brought me a bottle of remoulade and a bag of fried onions, I have to pick up in DK, BM 1000, BG 1000 and the Master 608.
I can bring the BG 4000 in my back pack, the FS, the BG and BM 1000 in her suitcase, and in my suitcase, the Master 608, problem solved if, the FS agree to refrain from her normal buying frenzy. Q: How do I explain that to her.
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Hi Søren,
On this subject I can speak, at least on a cursory basis.
Peter and Martin are the men in the know, but can tell you the mechanicals are a bit more tricky on the BM 4000 as opposed to the BM 4002/4004. They are also a bit older….but that is relative to usage. However nothing you can not handle. (Not meaning to be unkind to myself, but if I can repair a 4000 YOU can repair a 4000 and in half the time it takes me!)
Now one thing I KNOW for sure, Søren my friend, if you think you are hooked just from HD pictures, once you see how these 4000’s are made you will go crazy! The 4002/4004 is nicely built, actually very nicely built, but crap next to the 4000. (And this from a man who loves his 4002 & 4004!)
The electronics are no big issue, not for you and certainly less complicated than the 8000/8002. Anything that can go wrong is a capacitor and Martin has ‘em.
Lastly, I know you are a strong guy, but I don’t see a BM 4000 in a backpack as they are HEAVY! But if you do carry it, make sure you take the platter out and secure the arms. (There is a red plastic piece that does just that.)
Søren when you see how a Beogram 4000 operates with the strobe, the arm position indicator, and those lovely buttons that make the arms go faster as you press harder. You will be addicted, as I am.
Ask anyone that knows me at all what my favourite possession is and they will tell you my Beogram 4000.
Let’s talk more about this….
Piaf: Now one thing I KNOW for sure, Søren my friend, if you think you are hooked just from HD pictures, once you see how these 4000’s are made you will go crazy!
Now one thing I KNOW for sure, Søren my friend, if you think you are hooked just from HD pictures, once you see how these 4000’s are made you will go crazy!
Yes, yes, Synchronicity, and The Wall. Both first pressings. Nice ones aren't they?
Jacques, I think you are going to make a Beogram 4000 sale. What kind of veneer do you have on your 4000? Mine is MUCH lighter>
Never did learn how to do multiple photos, so here is another.....
Piaf: Jacques, I think you are going to make a Beogram 4000 sale. What kind of veneer do you have on your 4000? Mine is MUCH lighter> Jeff
I believe it is dark oak. Not that common.