ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hi all,
Been away from the forum for a while as I sold all my B&O stuff back in 2008 as I got bored of the product line and found nothing exciting anymore about B&O. I feel the design edge has been totally lost since David Lewis moved on, which is a personal opinion of course.
I have been an enthusiast of the brand for so many years, particularly from the late 80s to around 2005. I still look out for their new products once in a while in the hope that something will entice me back, but nothing ever does. It's sad my love for the company has dwindled so much but I guess that is life.
So, televisions... I was in the market for a new one back in November and looked at B&O of course, both new and second hand. I find the prices are absolutely ridiculous to be honest for old BeoVisions and see the same sets on eBay and other sites constantly coming up for sale which is a clear indication few people are interested, including myself. Why would anyone pay £3,000+ for such outdated technology (old plasmas in the 9 range, old LCD in the 7 range etc) when you can get top of the line 4K TVs and near enough OLEDs for the same price from mainstream brands? I ended up buying the Sony X9 and the picture was stunning. The sound wasn't up to B&O standards of course, but otherwise a great set. that set was £4,000 and is now just over £2,500 due to the fierce competition (great for the consumer) and that is only since December 4th!
Those who remember me from a few years back on this forum know how much I loved the design of B&O on some of their products but its no longer enough, nowhere near enough, not with the advancements in TV technology being so frequent and constantly dropping in price. The new 4K X8 TVs from Sony, due for release later this year, will be £1,500 and offer outstanding performance given the price. Am I honestly going to pay £2,000 - £3,000 for a 7-10 year old BeoVision, even a 2-3 year old one? No, of course not. The top of the line Sony X9 models will be around £3,000 so there is no way I could possibly justify anything second hand from B&O, let alone bother looking at new - £1,300 offers off or not.
So there we are, a strong post but an honest and passionate one from someone who loved B&O for so many years and keeps 'trying' to come back with a poke round the corner every now and then to see if anything is changing.
What is going on? Who on earth is designing these products? Why are they so far behind everyone else? And why is the second-hand market still asking for prices that really are quite ridiculous. Crazy times. This makes little to no sense to me.
Simon.
B&O products are V1-32, BS2, H95, E8 and an Essence remote.11-46 now replaced with Sony A90J 65”, Sony HT-A9, Sony UBP-X800M2 and Sony SRS-NS7.
I guess we are suckers for good design.
A friend of mine has a flat screen Toshiba, in front of which he has had to put an ugly sound bar (another make) to try to improve the sound output.
My BV11 has superb picture and sound and swings out on its motorised hinge to face wherever I want to sit. No competition, regardless of price.
Technology keeps moving on and there will always be something of higher spec around the corner.
As far as secondhand prices are concerned you can probably buy a fantastic Avant for £200. They are out of demand because of fashion rather than lacking in technical capability.
Graham
Is an fairly confident that if I came into your house there will be things you have purchased, and from which you get pleasure, which I could never understand.
Whether it be watches, cars, phones, wall paper, sofas, furniture or food, there will be items where you have spent more than I can justify or understand.
If I don't "get it" you will never change me. I guess the same goes for beautifully designed televisions with stunning sound, beautiful natural picture, and a whole host if ither useful features.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
You are correct in stating that on the basis of price, a second hand older B & O TV is uncompetitive with a current generation TV from one of the major manufacturers where the trend is towards ever lower prices.
That trend does result in corners being cut to meet ever decreasing price points, which can result in something of a lottery as to the quality of the TV acquired by a buyer.
B & O's use of quality materials, components, and a stringent quality control does not come cheap and is therefore reflected in the price to the consumer.
As with any premium product, it is up to the individual to decide if the price is justified by considerations such as quality, performance, and after sales service from the manufacturer.
4k is pointless as there's no source material available , it's just hype to sell another pile of boring tv's , the last gimmick was 3d , look what happened to that..lol , oled is interesting apart from the blue diode problem & the 3 year screen life..
I had my avant for 12 years , 12 years of trouble free watching , in that time i had a philips ( blew up ) , a loewe ( rubbish ) , 3 x sonys of varying quality from excellent to awful and a sharp that wasn't very sharp
The avant is still working , looks amazing AND they're giving me £850 trade in on a stunning new BV11 ( a really impressive bit of kit , technically up there with anything from samdung etc ), designed by David Lewis
I do agree that some of the modern gear is weird looking , the drum kit speaker does nothing for me , but I'm sure they are just feeling their feet design wise. eventually another David Lewis will come along and revolutionise B&O , hopefully.
A few years ago I was ready to give up on them , now my faith has been renewed. Tue really does seem to be the man with the plan !
Okay... Here's where I answer on used values.
When a person buys, say, a BeoVision 10-40 for circa £6250 in 2011, then offers it for sale after having hardly used it - how do you value it?
Well, all I do is say to myself "what will someone pay for it?" then work back from there. I have fixed costs, I have to go and collect it (two men, a van, fuel), I have to clean and test it, I have to pay any reconditioning costs, I have staff to pay, I put a warranty on it, I buy the official transport packaging, I have to arrange delivery (usually at a subsidy as people don't realise how much it costs to send things these days), I pay Corporation Tax and VAT on anything I do make.. I think I've made my point.
So - let's say these are going on eBay for £2,500 as reported on this forum. So, do I bid say £1900? £2000? If I do, I get told to get lost - in not so polite terms usually. People expect B&O items to be worth almost what they paid for them if they're under 3-4 years old - they simply will not accept that they lose circa 50% as soon as they leave the showroom in most cases.
So - we end up (in order to get stock) paying more than the TV is worth on the open market - and then have to add our margin. What can we do? If people won't pay the money there's nothing much we can do except slash margins. If that carries on the business will become unviable and I'll shut the doors rather than lose money.. That'll leave an eBay free-for-all which will smash prices even lower - to the point where buying a brand new Bang & Olufsen TV becomes financial suicide.
The market dictates. The market will have to live with the consequences, so will I, and so will Bang & Olufsen as a company.
Lee
All very good replies which I am enjoying reading, please keep them coming.
When I see the ever rotating listings on eBay that never sell, then get resisted again and so on, I can't help but wonder don't people get the point?!! Nobody wants it! BeoVision 9s, close to 10 year old plasmas, with an asking price of £3000+, in one or two cases on eBay over £4,000! If somebody did buy that I would like to know why? And I am the biggest fan of the BV9 believe me. For me, £1,500 is the maximum price I would offer for a BV9 of that age and even then I would want to know that I was covered by some warranty if the screen had any issues, which I would expect with such an old set.
A couple of posters have talked about the BeoVision Avant and that is my current television. I have decided to keep it. I don't want as its only 32" and having had the 55" Sony 4K its fair to say I have got used to such a large and exciting screen size, but that developed light bleed issues and was returned to the retailer for a full refund, hence the reason for this thread as I now find myself back in the market for another television. I am very tempted to go the OLED route as suggested by one poster, I just think its too early. I also agree with Flappo that it is still too early for 4K as there is little content around although that will all will be chaining in the next couple of months and then again in August as Sony are really pushing the technology (which they want to label as there own!) as much as possible. They are releasing a network server to download directly from Sony so that will change things dramatically. Of course Netflix are also working closely with them and Sony and Panasonic are working together on building the next generation Blu-Ray discs to cope with storage capacities etc.
My frustration is that there hasn't been a right time to buy a tv since 2007 I don't think. Although I do accept that many do like the BV11s but it doesn't too much for me personally as I find it a bit flimsy looking in appearance. I like a more solid brushed steel finished product.
@ Lee,
Isn't it just the same with cars? Depreciation from retail to trade price in 12 months can be 50%, but the garage reseller will reprice it at about 10 or 20% below original retail. Of course, there are exceptions like Morgan where you might pay more second hand simply because people don't want to wait 5 years or whatever it now is for a new delivery.
At least B&O does have a thriving second hand market. Other makes go for even less in percentage terms, or more usually are taken straight to the tip!
I agree to a point with the OP.
Mostly the problems with TV's today is the development. Never has anything like it been seen, not with any technology... I think even mobile phones gets second place...
I love my BV9 mk3, and will keep it until it dies. Even if it dies I'll try my best to revive it!
I don't get the running after the latest technology, as with TV's at the moment it is chasing the end of the rainbow.
At the same time, I see the problems the OP presented and sympathize. B&O's TV's grow less and less desirable as the competition rolls out ever bigger/better screens (not the sound part) at ever smaller price tags.
I actually cancelled my cable TV this week. Completely. I won't even get the free channels. I've watched normal TV exactly 0 times since I moved houses... All my content comes trough the Internet. Be it netflix, apple TV or my own ripped films on my home NAS.
None of these source I use have to my knowledge 4K resolution, so what would I do today with a 4K TV? Nothing!
Too long to list....
Once TVs moved from the mature technology of CRT to the immature technologies of LCD and Plasma, purchase of a premium TV was a financial gamble.
The history of the BV 7-40 , with it's ever improving PQ, is a case in point.
Who would buy a second hand early model knowing it's PQ is inferior to that of not only later iterations, but a current TV from one of the major manufacturers?
Now that LED TVs incorporate a relatively mature technology, a case can be made for purchasing a second hand late model B & O TV, or a current one such as the BV11 which had, in a review I recently read, the best 'out of the box' performance, particularly PQ, of any TV they had recently tested.
Now HDMI 2.0 and H265 codes is available, it is time that B&) comes soon with a 4 K television.
Yep and also a 4k upgrade for the Bs4 to 4k ,then I would buy -) Depending on the cost!
Either a Bv tv or a Bs 4 with 4k and someones screen.
I don't understand this infatuation with 4k , there's nothing to watch on it plus you need a tv over 80 inches to discern any difference between it and 1080p
4k is an answer to a question nobodies asking.
Flappo: 4k is an answer to a question nobodies asking.
The 4K hype is for being able to sell people a new tv - once again.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
vikinger: @ Lee, At least B&O does have a thriving second hand market... Graham
At least B&O does have a thriving second hand market...
Not for long.
2005-2009 : 130+ dealers, all pumping B&O out of the door like crazy - now down to around 50 dealers, most of whom are really struggling and selling very little.
What will that mean in a year or two? A lot less decent used B&O in free circulation - which will either push used prices up, or the whole market will shrink and collapse in on itself. The 2005-2009 products, of which there will be many in circulation, will be so woefully outdated technologically they will be worth next to nothing. Case in point the early non-HD BV7's, SD BV5's, 720p BV9's (recently) and the SD and BeoSystem 2 based 720p BeoVision 4 - all of which can be picked up for relatively pennies compared to new price.
It's hard out there, it's getting harder - and I can't see a reversal of fortune in the used market any time soon. Sorry to sound negative, but I'm a realist. I love B&O, love the brand, but I can't help what bad decisions by previous management and rapid technological changes have done to the business. I've always said I'm a flea on a dogs back - and the dog hasn't been too good lately!
Flappo: I don't understand this infatuation with 4k , there's nothing to watch on it plus you need a tv over 80 inches to discern any difference between it and 1080p 4k is an answer to a question nobodies asking.
Plus the 4K TVs are still based on LED/LCD technology and, for those reviewed so far, being edge lit, still exhibit varying degrees of defects such as corner bleed, light pooling, and panel array banding ( vertical stripes of uneven luminance ).
It would appear that OLED technology has the most potential for radical PQ improvement.
@LEE
Ever though of specializing on second hand BeoLab's?
They are much easier to handle, and the prices seems to be realistic for making a living.
I had a sony that cost £1,700 , after 4 years i had to pay £50 to get it thrown away !
we tend to forget there is more to design than designing.
David Lewis didn't move on. He died.
I had a friend round the other day who asked what I paid for my 28" Avant. I was honest and said £500 back in late 2007, and it was probably sold for £3500 new in 2003 when it was made. I am still genuinely happy with it as I don't watch too much TV and I personally find large sets to be one of the most gauche statement purchases anyone could make for their home.
I know I'm in a minority, but I'm happy with the second-hand market. If the Avant goes pop any time soon then I'll be looking for another one to replace it, and by the looks of eBay I'll have change out of £100. FWIW I wouldn't even want to 'upgrade' to the 32" version either.
How much a 3 years old top of the line Sony or Samsung can sell ? 200 € for 3.000 € paid ?
yesterday I sold my samsung 46 d8000. New august 2011 1965 euro including ci+ reader. Sold for 650,- Could have had more if a little more patience, people are still calling me. So in 2,5 years 1300 euro depreciation, not that bad I guess and people were litteraly lining up to buy it.
I sold it btw because I'm selling all my equipment so I can buy a beovision 11...
regards joost
BeoVision 11-55, BeoLab 8000, BeoRemote One BT, AppleTV 4, 2x BeoPlay A2, BeoPlay A1
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've never really been happy with the Samsung because at that time I really wanted a 10-40 but couldn't afford one...
but for most people Samsung is really a top of the line marque at the moment.
There is certainly no argument from me that B&O TVs sell better second hand than mainstream brands but only to a point, and in current times that point has now passed. In other words, for me, a cash buyer ready and waiting now, what set would I honestly buy second hand from B&O? I am certainly not going to buy a tv that is over 3 years old at the rate advances in this technology are made so quickly. Some people think that the BV11 has staying power but does it, really? They said that about the 10 and that is pretty much obsolete against competitors. I will always favour B&O audio and design of course, that goes without saying, but gone are the days when I will pay £3000 or more (much more in some new tv cases from B&O) simply for these two things. TVs are always about picture quality for me first and foremost. I didn't always have this view but do now.
Some think that 4K is not relevant at the moment and I do agree with this to a point, but it will be very relevant by the end of this year in my opinion, which is why the next generation TVs released from B&O will, I am quite sure be 4K compliant. They'd be mad to miss this in next release sets as its too risky.
The interesting thing about this whole debate for me is that I used to be a person/buyer who saw the design of B&O as more important and alluring over anything else, but not anymore, and that is entirely my point in hand... this has been a natural unconscious viewpoint that has now come around. In essence, I will no longer pay a premium for design. For B&O asking prices both new and second hand, I want the whole package. I miss David Lewis because his whole ethos from the onset was to design products that had staying power of around 10 years. The BV11 is a good effort but its still not good enough, not for me. Price it at £3000 new and I might consider it but that's just me. I want value for my money now. We do live in very different times where TV technology excels at a perhaps an impossible rate to keep up with and with this in mind the prices need to drop to reflect this. Will B&O do this though? Its a double edged sword because on the one hand they don't want to lose their exclusivity but on the other they need to stand out from the crowd. To do the latter though you need to perfect your products and have a big enough worldwide market to keep interested. In view of Lee's earlier post about the drop in dealers I question just how successful this marketplace is. I sold up, and many others have to. Whatever the brand needs to do to get us interested again, I wish they'd get on and do it! We are no longer in the 80s and 90s. You can't hang around and drift into the background unnoticed.
Living Room: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-2 (Center), Beolab 9 (Fronts), Beolab 8000 (Rears), no Subwoofer. Screen: Sony KD-85XH9096Dining Room: Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 4000 on stands, fed by Amazon Echo Show 8Home Cinema: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-4 (Center), Beolab 1 (Fronts), Beolab 4000 (Rears). Projector: Sony VPL-HW55Home Office: Beosystem 3, Beolab 7-4, Beolab 5000, Screen: Sony KD-55XH9005 on Beovision 7-40 stand, ML to Beosound 9000 MK3 and Beosound 5/Beomaster 5 (1 TB SSD version)Bedroom: Sony KD-65XH9077, Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 6002 and Beolab 11 (all white, wall-mounted)
In storage: Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000 (1960s).
What I don't understand is, how fussy are everyone's eyes??? Do you really see that much difference?
If you look at an Avant or a BV3, the picture is incredible. I have a BV3 in my loungeroom, and people who come to my place are astonished by the picture and sound. They're even more astonished when they find out it is a CRT tv!!
Now looking at a 1080 tv, how much better can it really be considering the environment most people watch tv? Why would you need to upgrade a tv every year, two years, three years? It just sounds like bragging rights.
It just doesn't make sense to me...
x:________________________
Certainly nothing to do with bragging for me Jonathan and yes I can see a big difference. Its about value for money for me now, and that is why I will stick with the Avant 32" until someone comes out with a suitable replacement. A previous poster touched on this very point; that these flat screen technologies are simply not up to par with the Avant. My problem is that I'd like to go flat screen but can't, due to these issues. You might be interested to know that I am a perfectionist so I do expect the very best where humanly possible, and that was what drew me to B&O in the first place as they once met my very strict requirements! How I yearn again for those times.
So if nothing is up to par with your Avant, why do you want to buy a new TV?
Some people enjoy the best art, some speakers and HiFi. Me I just enjoy the finest picture.
Apart from the later 7's, I still don't think there has ever been a better tv than the Avant. I openly admit I get more of a smile out of seeing our 28 RF, than our 11. It sounds better too.
Chris Townsend: Some people enjoy the best art, some speakers and HiFi. Me I just enjoy the finest picture. Apart from the later 7's, I still don't think there has ever been a better tv than the Avant. I openly admit I get more of a smile out of seeing our 28 RF, than our 11. It sounds better too.
Let's be realistic, the only tv that is probably going to satisfy me will be a 4K OLED priced between £2,000 - £3,000 and I feel that is only a couple of years away. I would have said sooner if manufacturers had been developing it more this year, but it seems they are pushing 4K to begin with then OLED again for 2015.
What do you need a 4K OLED for? I honestly don't understand...
The problem with the avant and a few if the older bno lcd tvs are the connections , only the later ones have hdmi which does seem crazy. I can understand it on the avant but on the beovision 5 etc ? Also the lack of true hd ?
from what I've gleaned the bv7 mk 4 onwards are a dramatic improvement on earlier models , maybe the op should give one of them a try ?
FWIW, my BV 8-32 is a very very good tv. The only reason I didnt trade up to a 7-40 was objections from my wife on the space it would take up. I had an avant for a short period of time and loved it.
After years of watching japanese tvs, the B&O has a lovely soft image and is great to look at.
Yes you can buy the latest and greatest, but I find a lot of recent screens to be quite harsh, image wise, and I like the fact its a bit different as well.
I think in the mass market, there seems to be kudos for the latest and greatest, but thats not me.
My parents have an old 7007 which is still working just fine.
BeoGreg:The tittle of this topic is b&o second hand tv no more value. I have to disagree with that. I just sold my 3 1/2 years old bv10-40 (with motorized stand and beo4) for 3.500 € and I had in a few days 5 very interested people. So I could have sold it maybe more than that. 3.500 € is still a lot of money for a 3 1/2 years old tv that I paid 6.500 €. How much a 3 years old top of the line Sony or Samsung can sell ? 200 € for 3.000 € paid ?
I have to disagree with that.
I just sold my 3 1/2 years old bv10-40 (with motorized stand and beo4) for 3.500 € and I had in a few days 5 very interested people. So I could have sold it maybe more than that.
3.500 € is still a lot of money for a 3 1/2 years old tv that I paid 6.500 €.
I don't know where you are located, but believe me, that kind of price for an early BV10 is impossible here.
Last summer I sold my BV10-40 on as I got a BV9. I got 2500 euro for it including 24% VAT! I "lost" 4000 euro or so... Had it for sale for months. ONE interested. Sure a few tire kickers who offered 1000 euro or so.
I paid 5000 euro for my BV9 MK3, almost showroom condition with a 6 month warranty. Would I buy it again at 5000e? Absolutely! Would I buy a BV10 again? No way.
You would probably have to give a 3 year old 40" Samsung away, but it wouldn't have been 4000 euro 3 years ago. It would have been perhaps 1500 euro, so even if you would have to pay someone to take it away it would be much cheaper than the depreciation of the B&O price.
Since the TV technology is advancing so rapidly, and people get drawn in by the silly marketing of 4k, 3D etc... Things you don't need, or even want! This is slashing the used value of B&O TV's.
4K is really nothing but a marketing ploy. What are you going to watch on it? Some claim it will be future proof, but I doubt that. Perhaps as future proof as 3D?
The Avant was a great piece of kit, especially the RF.
However, I don't think the Avant comes close to the BV9 mk3 picture or sound wise...
Sure the CRT's had some wonderful colors, very natural, but picture quality (in my eyes) the BV9 is far better.