ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Barry Santini:The missing element in this discussion is those owners, like me, who derive long term satisfaction from the design and gestalt of B&O, especially their TVs. YMMV, but I know how I value mine. B
YMMV, but I know how I value mine.
B
Agree with Barry. A case can be made to buy B&O TV based on longevity and maturity.
Panels don't die and have easily a 10 year reach.
HDMI secures interfaces
BS3 engine still performs.
Motorstand adds flexibility
Speaker concept adabtable.
Design breathtaking.
In consequence, why running for the latest next big thing when you can enjoy a current Gen B&O TV for many years, thus mitigating depreciation effects and values over the longterm.
ɓʋɾɑɳɫɘɮ: On topic... I don't really care if any of my TVs (BV or otherwise) have any second hand value whatsoever. The concept of trading one is foreign to me. I usually run them until they are dead. On the occasions when one has left before its life was up -I gave them away. As I rapidly approach mid life, there are much bigger concerns than squeezing a dollar out of something I have enjoyed and has served me well. Enjoy life - regret nothing.
On topic...
I don't really care if any of my TVs (BV or otherwise) have any second hand value whatsoever.
The concept of trading one is foreign to me. I usually run them until they are dead.
On the occasions when one has left before its life was up -I gave them away.
As I rapidly approach mid life, there are much bigger concerns than squeezing a dollar out of something I have enjoyed and has served me well. Enjoy life - regret nothing.
Same here, and I do the same with cars.
I do like buying something that's perfect and only 12 months old at half price though.
Graham
pf85: Barry Santini:The missing element in this discussion is those owners, like me, who derive long term satisfaction from the design and gestalt of B&O, especially their TVs. YMMV, but I know how I value mine. B Agree with Barry. A case can be made to buy B&O TV based on longevity and maturity. Panels don't die and have easily a 10 year reach. HDMI secures interfaces BS3 engine still performs. Motorstand adds flexibility Speaker concept adabtable. Design breathtaking. In consequence, why running for the latest next big thing when you can enjoy a current Gen B&O TV for many years, thus mitigating depreciation effects and values over the longterm.
I missed Barry's post on my first pass.
Exactly!
vikinger: Same here, and I do the same with cars. I do like buying something that's perfect and only 12 months old at half price though.
Certainly -there is nothing wrong with that!
And that is why I typically run things into the ground. I ain't paying somebody else's first 50% -especially just for technology's sake.
...and that's why I kept my LX6000 for 19 years! :) However, I couldn't justify spending 10 000 € for the BV11-55, so this time I went for a non-B&O. I do understand those who feel the bv11 is worth its price, but it is too expensive for me.
henrik: pf85: Barry Santini:The missing element in this discussion is those owners, like me, who derive long term satisfaction from the design and gestalt of B&O, especially their TVs. YMMV, but I know how I value mine. B Agree with Barry. A case can be made to buy B&O TV based on longevity and maturity. Panels don't die and have easily a 10 year reach. HDMI secures interfaces BS3 engine still performs. Motorstand adds flexibility Speaker concept adabtable. Design breathtaking. In consequence, why running for the latest next big thing when you can enjoy a current Gen B&O TV for many years, thus mitigating depreciation effects and values over the longterm. ...and that's why I kept my LX6000 for 19 years! :) However, I couldn't justify spending 10 000 € for the BV11-55, so this time I went for a non-B&O. I do understand those who feel the bv11 is worth its price, but it is too expensive for me.
Agree. therefore, 1 or 2 year old B&O TVs are probably the best investments because the first hump of depreciation is gone...
Great discussion so far. Catching up as I have been away from home for a few days...
In response to vikinger/Graham's recent posts, I am not entirely sure what point you are trying to make? My views are always changing. That is the whole point of discussion. It seems you are spending a lot of time looking into my past threads/posts but for what purpose I am unclear? Whatever your agenda I am simply having another discussion about something I am passionate about, the B&O brand.
I am intrigued to see the next TV from B&O in 3 months time and look forward to its product launch which I will attend personally. That is the time I may look into a complete visual and audio B&O setup if I am impressed on the night. It seems the TV will address many of the things I am looking for in the BV11 and at a more competitive price so let's just hope the styling is to my liking.
A previous post asked what I am looking for now that David Lewis has passed on? Well I am looking for his predecessor, which so far I have not seen in the product line-up. I want current designers in his studio to follow in his footsteps and offer similar designs to B&O that David did. Having worked with him for so long they know how he thought and they understood the design process to make visually and technically challenging ideas a reality. Jacob Jensen was also inspiring in his work and he, along with David are the types of designers and their designs I would love to see from B&O again. Perhaps they are a 'thing' of the past now and B&O is moving forward in a different direction? If this is the case then it may be I move on too. Only time will tell and I personally feel this year is make or break for me. After all, I have to build a system into my home at some point! I can't wait forever.
Simon.
B&O products are V1-32, BS2, H95, E8 and an Essence remote.11-46 now replaced with Sony A90J 65”, Sony HT-A9, Sony UBP-X800M2 and Sony SRS-NS7.
No agenda Simon! Just happened to spot an old post of yours in an archived thread about the Beo Lounge that Mika had highlighted. It's in a current thread. I thought it was a happy coincidence and added to the debate.
Hello all
It feels like I have not been here for ages.
If any of you have followed my recent posts you will know that I really love my BV7 but was upset that I would loose SD distribution and ML if I upgrade it past the mk6.
This caused me to look at some other technologies and whole house setups.
I have stated to venture into control4 and so far it's excellent I can control every room from my remote. I have kept my bv7 as really I don't need to upgrade my tv just yet.
In fact I actually have the C4 controlling the tv via a lintronic -238 so I will one day loose SD dist but at that time I will buy a matrix and use c4 to do it all do me, bang and olufsen are not moving forward quick enough into home automation and their drop of the old tech without announcing what net link can do forced me to look elsewhere.
I still have y bv7 standing proud in my lounge and to be honest that is where it will stay as its beautiful, I won't be buying any super downside ML gateways and B and o approved HDMI matrix.
Funn thing is I started being annoyed that upgrading my tv would make me loose some functionality and the I found that what I wanted changed and I did not really need it anyway.
So even know my tv is acting as a monitor now with amazing speakers I don't think my love has gone, yes they are expensive and the second hand market not returning as much as before but I found a way to keep my tv.
I miss my beo4 but I will get used to it over time.
Eclipse 65V1-32Beosound M5Essence MK2BLI
Back to the original topic.
B&O second hand prices are what they are because of demand or lack of demand, good design or not.
If you buy second hand you probably want to benefit from massive depreciation in the first year of ownership by someone else. If the TV's are not depreciating fast enough then there is no point moaning about it. The market is what it is. People who ask too much on eBay don't sell. All the more reason to go to one of the resellers who offer a guarantee.
The best bargains are in CRT and plasma. Technologies everyone was more than happy with just a very few years ago!
Edit. A quick Google search reveals a motorised all yellow Beocenter 1 TV for £50 and a Beocenter 2 DVD player for £350. How much depreciation do people want?
vikinger:Edit. A quick Google search reveals a motorised all yellow Beocenter 1 TV for £50 and a Beocenter 2 DVD player for £350. How much depreciation do people want?
Those could still be useful, but for most older CRT models the actual resale value is negative - meaning they will drag down the value of the remote that comes with them!
On the other hand, with other brands you wouldn't even want the remote, so...
--mika
Seanie_230:Hello all It feels like I have not been here for ages. ...bang and olufsen are not moving forward quick enough into home automation and their drop of the old tech without announcing what net link can do forced me to look elsewhere.
...bang and olufsen are not moving forward quick enough into home automation and their drop of the old tech without announcing what net link can do forced me to look elsewhere.
Hey Seanie -nice to see you popping back in.
I find your home automation comments so tragic. Who here would have thought that after all of the link systems over the years (doing it the hard way) that B&o could so easily drop the ball when the going got easy?
ɓʋɾɑɳɫɘɮ: I find your home automation comments so tragic. Who here would have thought that after all of the link systems over the years (doing it the hard way) that B&o could so easily drop the ball when the going got easy?
I honestly think only a killer distributed audio system will save them!!! I think concentrating on TV's at the moment is a distraction, they can come back when TV tech. sorts itself out. They have the speakers, they need a killer source system and a killer interface. It must be their own, an "app" on "Johnny-come-lately's" hardware simply isn't good enough!
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher: ɓʋɾɑɳɫɘɮ: I find your home automation comments so tragic. Who here would have thought that after all of the link systems over the years (doing it the hard way) that B&o could so easily drop the ball when the going got easy? I honestly think only a killer distributed audio system will save them!!! I think concentrating on TV's at the moment is a distraction, they can come back when TV tech. sorts itself out. They have the speakers, they need a killer source system and a killer interface. It must be their own, an "app" on "Johnny-come-lately's" hardware simply isn't good enough!
Didn't we all conclude that WiSA was B&O's killer application / distribution system that pulled them ahead of the competition, at least for the short term?
If B&o had to listen to BeoWorlders, they would probably have to make 10 different audio systems....
....to please them all!
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
vikinger: Puncher: ɓʋɾɑɳɫɘɮ: I find your home automation comments so tragic. Who here would have thought that after all of the link systems over the years (doing it the hard way) that B&o could so easily drop the ball when the going got easy? I honestly think only a killer distributed audio system will save them!!! I think concentrating on TV's at the moment is a distraction, they can come back when TV tech. sorts itself out. They have the speakers, they need a killer source system and a killer interface. It must be their own, an "app" on "Johnny-come-lately's" hardware simply isn't good enough! Didn't we all conclude that WiSA was B&O's killer application / distribution system that pulled them ahead of the competition, at least for the short term? Graham
I agree with you Puncher. As long as my love affair has been with B&O, speakers have never been a problem. In fact I think this is where B&O excel as a company. They have beaitiful designs with accompanying sound reproduction that sets them apart from any other speaker on the market - you know they are unquestionably B&O. There efforts with TVs aren't failures by any means. I did like the BV7 design a lot, and bought one. The BV5 and BV9 too, but that is where it stopped for me me, plus they are all just too outdated now. I do think they should still keep designing TVs as I it would be hard to imagine the company without them in the product line up. However, your point about coming back when TV technology sorts itself out is a good one. B&Os pace is just too slow, even though I understand this because they want to try and perfect their overall design/product, but its just too too far behind the competition unfortunately.
An earlier post highlighted the excellent point of TVs seen advertised on eBay that are constantly being relished because of the asking price. There are two BV9s currently listed between £3500-£5,000. Total madness in my opinion. Who is going to pay that for an ageing 2005-2007 Panasonic plasma screen? Let's just pause for a reality check here! £3,000 or now under, if you shop around, will buy you a top of the range 55"+ 4K TV, and £5,000 a top of the range OLED. These B&O sets will sit their getting older and older, taking up space and eventually scrapped. They only have a short lifespan as it is and once the screen has gone its gone, unless someone tells me otherwise. These are crazy times indeed. There are even some BV11s recently listed which are more expensive than new from dealers with the special £1,300 off offers! My brain hurts! I think Lee's more recent posts about the market were very open and honest ones that are a true representation of how things are. Something only sells if it still has value.
B&O are caught in a technology gap where flat screen quality is improving rapidly. This cannot continue forever as there is a limit to how good the resolution of these sets can become, whether that be the resoving power of the human eye or the bandwidth required to feed content to screen. I have no great concerns about the current quality of the BV7 or the latest BV11. However the market is in flux and there is an arms race in progress driven by both by technology and marketing. I agree B&O should try to be a little more cutting edge to compete more effectively given the premium product prices. Eventually the market will stabilise as it did in the days of CRTs & the Avant. B&O just need to survive long enough to get to that point where the product premium will seem better value for money. The fact that Lifestyle & others have a market for used B&O says a lot about the desirability of the products themselves.
I'd hardly call the BV11 outdated ; 6 hdmi's , 200hz screen , 3d , apps , wifi , wifi s/w updates etc plus they're giving me £850 for my avant , which is amazing considering they normally go for £50 on ebay :D
I do agree on the new designers though , the drum stand speaker with wooden legs !??!?! what on earth are they drinking / smoking in struer to come up with that oddity ??
Maybe they should have a world wide competition to find the next David Lewis / Jacob Jensen ?
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
I wasn't including the BV11 as an outdated set! :)
Barry's right , bno are a about much more than just tech specs and the best picture , it's the whole system ., the fact i can control my tv's sound with my beocom 2 - even now people gasp in awe at it , lol
Oh so that's what that funny black banana's for then !?
I say this through gritted teeth but I installed a BV11-55 in my lounge yesterday... and I'm not that impressed with the PQ
I've just bought a secondhand Oppo BDP-95EU from fleabay and will give the TV the chance to shine through that, but as it is using Sky HD the 7-55 is streets ahead.
I'm very impressed with the sound which comes from the 11-55 on Speaker 1, very impressed indeed - but I've got two BeoLab 5's to pick up the slack, so it's not the end of the world if the centre channel lacks a little.
Has anyone else been disappointed with the PQ on the 11-55? This one is an ex-demo and may have had the settings fiddled with. I had a quick look in the menu last night and played with some settings, but the general quality of the image isn't as good as the Samsung UE65F9000 it was sat next to..
Let's see what the Oppo does to things. I'll report back. For now though I maintain the Mk4-Mk6 7-40 and the 7-55 have the best PQ of all the B&O LCD's.
Back on track about used B&O - the company (Bang & Olufsen) will be shooting their own foot if they don't raise brand awareness and make the product an aspirational purchase again. As i keep saying, if you want to do 0-60 in 3.4 seconds you can buy a Nissan Skyline GTR for a third of the money of a Ferrari 458 - but what's the car most people would dream about owning? A Ferrari.. It's aspirational, the company plays on it's heritage and history, it's got its branding right and when they do something they always do it well. No lemons.
Right - "back in me box"...
Lee
You're right about branding , a few years ago all the interior decorators used to use bno in their pics , nowadays anything will do it seems
Did you see that tv show the other night with the ultra hi tech house - inside no 9 , ep 2 , everything looed uber cool apart from the tv , it was a shoddy generic plastic piece of junk
If only bno pr would stick their stuff in like apple used to do , now look at apple , lol
Do bno HAVE PR ?
In the old days pre net they used to have a powerful but subtle influence , I recall as a kid reading the radio times and readers digest adverts with much affection . Nowadays it's like bno never even existed which is very sad , its like they're trying to re invent their brand when they really shouldn't have to
Dear Beonic_Man,
I share your frustration a bit but for me it was more a frustration over the lack of a fantastic streaming music machine by B&O but if i may my opinion is a little different when it comes to TVs. I used to share your frustrations about the slow progress of B&O TVs but I will publicly say i was very wrong and and other members on Beoworld were right. It took me a while to absorb and appreciate what other members were saying when they talk about the gesalt, the form, the lines, the zen-like simplicity, the materials, the feel...
Like you i sold off all my gear recently - we moved into temporary accommodation as our house is being gutted and extended. Last week I was in John Lewis (big quality department store here in the UK) and strolled through the TV and audio department and my heart sank. Yes, the Panasonic VT series has an amazing picture quality but there was not one offering by Samsung, Sony, Panasonic etc... that made me lust, desire or yearn after. They were in my humble opinion dog ugly. The frame was some horrible gun metal grey plasticky effect. The TVs had massive stickers boasting about the hundreds of apps and functions. The sound from all of them was totally sickening even with the requisite sound bar. Gimmicks galore like ambilight behind the screen. Labels boasting about the next new format 4k, OLED, Ultra-ultra-high-higher this and that and the new must have... In that nauseating Las Vegas slot machine like sensory overload of a hell all i could think about was my BV5 that i loved and adored for so many years and my BV4 with the BL7.4 on a motorised stand. None of the TVs that day on show looked anywhere near as clean, beautiful, timeless, elegant or had the simplicity, look and feel. Life is frenetic and burdened with the next target and fashion and that is why i value the qualities of a B&O TV. It goes against the grain.
I want B&O quality polished aluminium frame.
I don't want plastic and acres of cheap black metal.
I want B&O simplicity in the menu.
I don't want the scrolling, panning, gesture controlled, voice controlled labyrinth menus.
I want a few select apps (perhaps too few) that slowly evolve over time.
I don't want 50 apps on my screen.
I want B&O electronic curtain and fading sound in and out.
I don't want ambilight bouncing off the back wall like a 1980s disco.
I want the best tweaked panel with the best PQ using a panel of viewers at B&O HQ.
I don't want to worry about trying to keep with the next best thing in the world of AV with countless picture settings and white-gamma-rgb-calibration.
I want one elegant heavy quality remote to control my TV, music etc that stays cool in my hand.
I don't want 5 plastic remotes on the coffee table.
B&O will never, i repeat never be able to keep up with the likes of Sony, Panasonic, etc and that is what i want.
I don't want to buy the same film in new format every few years and more importantly i don't want to change my TV every 3 years like a mobile phone. If you want to keep up you will have to resign yourself to changing the TV every 3 years. 4K is the next best thing, then it will be OLED, then in 5 years time we will start to see murmurs of something new that is in development and then Sony, Samsung will start the whole cycle again.
So for me i would rather buy a B&O TV thats a few years old over a brand new Sony 4K OLED, ultra-ultra high higher def thingeymebob.
I want this in my life - Look at Dave, Rikard and Jasper050’s pictures on this link:
http://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/t/227.aspx?PageIndex=8
I don’t want this on my living for the next 3 years to be followed by the next new wonder:
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http://images.cdn.whathifi.com/sites/whathifi.com/files/images/sony/Sony4KTV_e.jpg
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Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
You do raise a very valid point Barry of course and I am inclined to agree for the most part. However, in recent years and I speak for myself only, I feel strongly that the financial outlay has to be justified and the products have to have staying power. If these conditions are met I am happy to take out my wallet (again). However, as has been touched on in this thread several times, as far as televisions go (those following the Avant), staying power is a thing of the past. Vintage products you are referring to are from a different time than current times and I therefore think it is difficult to make the same comparisons as technology moved at a much slower pace back then. Just my thoughts.
I have often thought that technology was moving faster and faster, making choices and decisions to buy more difficult, but it isn't really the case is it?
The BBC only started radio broadcasting in 1922: that's only just over three generations ago. Allowing for WW2 there was probably as much technological change in B&O's first 20 years of production as there has been in the last 20 years. Just accept the technology as you find it and base your purchase, new or secondhand, on what is available today. You can waste your life anticipating what might be around the corner, and can regret at leisure that bargain purchase of a mass produced plastic poorly finished technological marvel.
If I owned a BeoVision 9 or 4 and was that worried about the future I would start looking for a matching Panasonic Pro and put it in the attic for a rainy day. Might not be a perfect match but it would work with a little support from a tech for the special boards. That line was built for industrial use and they made many millions of them. Otherwise, the only thing I have seen that screen do is blow a power supply, which is repairable in the 3rd party market today. My ideal of timeless B&O.
9-LEE:Let's see what the Oppo does to things. I'll report back. For now though I maintain the Mk4-Mk6 7-40 and the 7-55 have the best PQ of all the B&O LCD's.
This is what's wrong with the world today. We've become a disposable society driven by very clever marketers, who tell us we'll never be satisfied by the latest and greatest because of what is coming around the corner.
There is definitely an element of trickery involved when people think they 'need' to upgrade constantly. It's insanity!
x:________________________
Tonker:Hence why I regret through grated teeth not buying one. Beovision 11-46, Beolab 14, Beovision 8-32, Beovision 3-32, Avant RF 28, Beosound 8, Beolit 12, Beocom 2, Beotime, H6 and Form 2, Beo 4's and a 6.
ɓʋɾɑɳɫɘɮ: Seanie_230:Hello all It feels like I have not been here for ages. ...bang and olufsen are not moving forward quick enough into home automation and their drop of the old tech without announcing what net link can do forced me to look elsewhere. Hey Seanie -nice to see you popping back in. I find your home automation comments so tragic. Who here would have thought that after all of the link systems over the years (doing it the hard way) that B&o could so easily drop the ball when the going got easy?
Hi there
thank you, in fact i am here at least once a day as even know i have changed some things i absolutly love this brand and could not bring myself to sell my TV and speakers :)
I think in time if i can find one cheap enough I will get the ML gateway and the RecluseAV Control 4 driver for the gateway so everything intergrates really well but until then i will carry on. My beocentre 9300 still sits proud in my music room and if i buy the gateway it will free up my Lintronic to be used for the beocentre :)
Communication is key, tell people at least what Netlink can do in the future.
To remain on topic I looked online and my Beovision 3 is not really worth anything second hand and bits and peices like beolink passive seem to have dropped in price.
I can't agree with this Jonathan. There are indeed very clever marketers in today's world, perhaps the best example of such a company are Rolex who are the masters in my opinion, but no matter how they try to market or what 'trickery' they use I still have my own mind and use it! For me, the greatest happiness comes from the chase, not the actual purchase of the product. With this in mind I thoroughly enjoy these threads that I start from time to time on this, and other forums, as it always helps me make an informed decision in the long term and I enjoy the discussion en route.
I certainly don't 'need' to upgrade constantly. We all know that while 4K footage is impressive for example, there is little of it! As for 3D, I am not interested. It's always been about picture quality for me first and foremost. Of course to have B&O's magical touch of build quality, looks and gimmickry is an added bonus. I am simply playing the waiting game until such a TV arrives and I believe it will be when OLED and 4K are more mainstream; the perfect mix. Looks like I will be waiting a while so what set can I settle with until then? Looks like the Avant... STILL! A testament to the Avant of course but I always thought if anyone could bridge this most difficult gap between CRT and LCD/Plasma it 'could' have been B&O. The BV7s came close as they had reasonably good picture quality, strong sound and built in DVD/Blu Ray players.