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ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022
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This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022

 

What is going on with B&O’s current TV lineup?

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 8:50 AM

Emil Jensen:

Sandyb:

Emil Jensen:

Name me one time B&O had the best picture possible?

B&O have until recently had their own prefered colour calibration that is far from "correct"

Now you actually are able to adjust the tv to ISF settings, for the first time.

And in that regard see how well Loewe is doing, far from the ISF standard.

 

I get where you are going, but why settle for a worse picture, just to say it was made in house?

And yes Sony and Panasonic is better than LG in that regard, but that is only something I can read in the reviews not something that I can see or notice with my own eyes. 

BV12-65.

 

 

The BV 12-65 used a Panasonic VT30 screen,

By the time BV12 came, Panasonic launch VT50 which were in many areas improved.

Though the Pioneer KRP-600 was and still is regarded as the best plasma screen ever, and that was also before BV12-65,

Yes I know all of that.

The point being that the BV12 used, at the time, the best panel available, and the video processing was marvellous.

I had a 60 inch Pioneer Kuro as well prior to the BV 12, so I lived with both side by side.

The BV 12 was at least as good.

Speaking from experience of course.

B&O aren't in the position to make a similar proposition now, although I concede its not as if the LG picture is bad.

 

BEOVOX141
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Sandyb:
Name me one time B&O had the best picture possible?

Avant RF!

Emil Jensen
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Sandyb:

Emil Jensen:

Sandyb:

Emil Jensen:

Name me one time B&O had the best picture possible?

B&O have until recently had their own prefered colour calibration that is far from "correct"

Now you actually are able to adjust the tv to ISF settings, for the first time.

And in that regard see how well Loewe is doing, far from the ISF standard.

 

I get where you are going, but why settle for a worse picture, just to say it was made in house?

And yes Sony and Panasonic is better than LG in that regard, but that is only something I can read in the reviews not something that I can see or notice with my own eyes. 

BV12-65.

 

 

The BV 12-65 used a Panasonic VT30 screen,

By the time BV12 came, Panasonic launch VT50 which were in many areas improved.

Though the Pioneer KRP-600 was and still is regarded as the best plasma screen ever, and that was also before BV12-65,

Yes I know all of that.

The point being that the BV12 used, at the time, the best panel available, and the video processing was marvellous.

I had a 60 inch Pioneer Kuro as well prior to the BV 12, so I lived with both side by side.

The BV 12 was at least as good.

Speaking from experience of course.

B&O aren't in the position to make a similar proposition now, although I concede its not as if the LG picture is bad.

 

But it is not really true,

When BV 12 launch with the VT30 panel the VT50 had been released.

And as you point out you could not see a difference between Pioneer and BV, So I bet you even less would be able to do so with a LG C7 compared to a Sony or Panasonic OLED. So thank you for backing that up.

At least when Eclipse was release the C7 was the newest on the market in 6 month or so.

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 10:56 AM
Stop being absolutist

Even if the 12 wasn’t literally the best, it was near enough damn it. And with the other plasmas at the time being quite obviously inferior, the 12 proposition was hard to argue with from a picture quality perspective

And my Kuro developed issues over time, so it wasn’t without issues

And I lived with both, I doubt you did. The 12 was no worse. And nor should there have been much difference

The LG is fine. But in no reviews against the Panasonic OLED does it score ahead on picture quality.

It may matter to some at 10 grand, may not matter to others

But the broader point is that with the 12 there was minimal scope for questions about picture quality. With the Eclipse, that window is a little more obvious, even if its base quality is very good

Emil Jensen
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Sorry, but on text I feel best at being absolutist, to get the point ahead.

I would argue that the difference between the Plasma was greater than the OLED Screen.

And no I did not own both.

I owned the VT30 though,

And I sold Panasonic products for 7 years in that time periode, in a Panasonic center.

 

If you look at Flatpanels review between the OLED screen, the picture difference are very hard to point out.

Back in the Plasma days the black level were the topic, and it vastly approved after the VT30,

And sorry if you have wrote it, but what Pioneer Plasma was it you had?

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 11:27 AM

Emil Jensen:

Sorry, but on text I feel best at being absolutist, to get the point ahead.

I would argue that the difference between the Plasma was greater than the OLED Screen.

And no I did not own both.

I owned the VT30 though,

And I sold Panasonic products for 7 years in that time periode, in a Panasonic center.

 

If you look at Flatpanels review between the OLED screen, the picture difference are very hard to point out.

Back in the Plasma days the black level were the topic, and it vastly approved after the VT30,

And sorry if you have wrote it, but what Pioneer Plasma was it you had?

I'll have to look up the model I had.

Again, the broader point about BV offerings in general recently has been that they've had some horrible picture quality (14, Horizon), and even where its up do date (Eclipse), others consistently get better reviews for picture quality.

Notice the differences or don't notice them - when it comes to justifying the price premium, people will approach that thought process in different ways.

The PQ differences may matter to some, may not to others - but with modern TV's, there is little to differentiate them, and video processing and PQ are one of the biggest remaining differences. So for some, the lesser reviews of LG's video processing will make it harder to justify the price premium. Just the simple knowledge that you're not quite getting the best of the best, especially if you are a fan of the filmic look of an image presentation, and that there are better options out there.

Anyway, as I've said the LG is an excellent all rounder.  My bigger issue is the design, which still looks a little awkward to me. My preference for Panasonic image processing may be secondary, though still important when it comes to justifying the price premium. 

With the 12, they offered something similar to the Panasonic GZ2000 pro panel offering. Now B&O don't.

May not matter to some.

And at that, I wish you a splendid day.

 

 

Emil Jensen
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Sandyb:

Emil Jensen:

Sorry, but on text I feel best at being absolutist, to get the point ahead.

I would argue that the difference between the Plasma was greater than the OLED Screen.

And no I did not own both.

I owned the VT30 though,

And I sold Panasonic products for 7 years in that time periode, in a Panasonic center.

 

If you look at Flatpanels review between the OLED screen, the picture difference are very hard to point out.

Back in the Plasma days the black level were the topic, and it vastly approved after the VT30,

And sorry if you have wrote it, but what Pioneer Plasma was it you had?

I'll have to look up the model I had.

Again, the broader point about BV offerings in general recently has been that they've had some horrible picture quality (14, Horizon), and even where its up do date (Eclipse), others consistently get better reviews for picture quality.

And at that, I wish you a splendid day.

 

 

Same to you :)

Try to look at this link:

https://www.flatpanels.dk/fokusartikel.php?subaction=showfull&id=1440153849

To me the difference seem very small.

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Chris Townsend
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I often go to the shops and look at all the latest and greatest. I know it’s not the perfect environment but at least they’re playing on an equal front, and I can hardly tell the difference today. Don’t they all use LG OLED panels to start with anyway?

But only one comes on an awesome stand so I can tuck my tv into the corner. Only one comes with a built in sound bar, and I’m pretty sure none come with a remote as clever as the Eclipse.

I’ve not looked at another tv since, just like my lovely wifeCool

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moxxey replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 3:57 PM

Chris Townsend:

But only one comes on an awesome stand so I can tuck my tv into the corner. Only one comes with a built in sound bar, and I’m pretty sure none come with a remote as clever as the Eclipse.

No-one here is disputing that. As I keep saying, Eclipse owners have become the most 'defensive' on the board. It's just that it's...incredibly expensive. Completely fine if you have a spare £10K or you're so into your TV £10K is money well spent as it's the centre of your non-work world, but for the majority, the upgrade is now questionable.

I have better things to do than go into stores comparing picture quality. My BV12-65 is superb kit. The BV11-55 is superb kit, so is the Avant, some of the later BV7-55's etc. Sell this superb kit and you might scrape £800-£1K towards your Eclipse. Is it worth that additional £9K? That's my question and most other owners, which is why it's becoming hard to convince them to upgrade from their existing B&O TV. 

And why would anyone look at another TV anyhow after spending £10K literally months ago? Does a TV really represent the focal point of someone's life to that kind of degree? I'd rather go and play football on an evening.

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I actually expected you to answer my simple comment like that. This constant mantra that if you like it you’re defensive etc etc etc.

It’s borderline aggressive, and why I just don’t bother posting on here like I used to.

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 5:42 PM

it was nowhere near aggressive.

Not in the grand scheme of things anyway.

 

Jeff
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Jeff replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 5:54 PM

Sandyb:

it was nowhere near aggressive.

Not in the grand scheme of things anyway.

 

Commenting on the obvious is now "borderline aggressive." Good grief, what snowflakes society has turned into. One might say, defensive. Wink

Jeff

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 6:37 PM

Jeff:

Sandyb:

it was nowhere near aggressive.

Not in the grand scheme of things anyway.

 

Commenting on the obvious is now "borderline aggressive." Good grief, what snowflakes society has turned into. One might say, defensive. Wink

Quite.

I was debating something with someone the other day, he didn't agree (which is fine) but came at me hard for "mansplaining".....so now, that's shorthand for "I don't agree with you, I don't want to consider the substance of said debate, I only want to believe what I want to believe"....very much a modern foible.

By the way, it was a man asking me to stop mansplaining.

Go figure.

Jeff
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Jeff replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 6:47 PM

Mansplaining...FFS. I've noticed, over the years, that when someone suddenly starts whining about the tone of the conversation, negativity, etc. it's exactly as you say. They don't want to have the discussion, and often feel like they are losing the argument. It's especially annoying when the topic is not one of opinion only, like do you think a TV is worth the money, but something factual and they refuse to acknowledge facts and persist in their beliefs regardless.

 

Jeff

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 6:58 PM

Jeff:

Mansplaining...FFS. I've noticed, over the years, that when someone suddenly starts whining about the tone of the conversation, negativity, etc. it's exactly as you say. They don't want to have the discussion, and often feel like they are losing the argument. It's especially annoying when the topic is not one of opinion only, like do you think a TV is worth the money, but something factual and they refuse to acknowledge facts and persist in their beliefs regardless.

 

Indeed, though the debate above is actually not full of negativity, just people making some points about how they view a current product line up of a firm who charge a large premium.  No one is wrong or right buying any of these products - the broader point being made is that some here are struggling to justify the premium quite as easily as they once did.

That is not a controversial point.

Suggesting all is as it once was when it comes to the value proposition though, I think many would argue is a stretch.

But lets look forward, MM's teaser post of the new product may materialise into something pretty nice.

 

Emil Jensen
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I fully agree, that if you have a function BV12-65, why go buy a new tv.

I am just trying to say, if you want a new tv, that is as good as a beovision, you have no choice.

I would not in my current situration buy a used tv, the BV12-65 is too big for me, and not with motor stand, The other 55" is with LCD panels, and that I would never touch.

Is the Eclipse expensive, yes as all the other BeoVision have been.

Is it too expensive? I cannot find the product anywhere else, so imo very hard to say.

Is it worth it for you? not for the general people, but the Eclipse is a way better value for the money, than BV7 or BV12 ever was.

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 8:02 PM
The 12 was absurdly expensive no doubt- around 14k in the UK.

I got an ex display one , around 9 months old, for 7.5k.

No regrets at that price.

So yes , a 65 inch Eclipse is cheaper than 14k.

Value, in the eye of the beholder I guess

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Expensive is absolutely relative though. Why come onto a forum that deals in what is an expensive product range and brand, trying to justify why you wouldn’t or couldn’t buy it. I see the same drivel written about Leicas. I just don’t get it.

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 8:14 PM

Chris Townsend:

Expensive is absolutely relative though. Why come onto a forum that deals in what is an expensive product range and brand, trying to justify why you wouldn’t or couldn’t buy it. I see the same drivel written about Leicas. I just don’t get it.

We're not all homogeneous when it comes to where we draw the line, or how we evaluate different products.

Yes we might be in the same broad market, but that doesn't mean we should all look at the same product and have the same perception of value.

That shouldn't be controversial, nor difficult to understand.

 

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Jeff replied on Wed, Apr 3 2019 8:19 PM

Chris Townsend:

Expensive is absolutely relative though. Why come onto a forum that deals in what is an expensive product range and brand, trying to justify why you wouldn’t or couldn’t buy it. I see the same drivel written about Leicas. I just don’t get it.

In other words, shut up you smelly plebeians. Stick out tongue

Jeff

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Peter Pan
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Puncher:
B&O's best ever TV isn't actually a B&O TV but an LG.
B&O's best ever TV isn't actually the best anymore, others are better.
I would find both of these to be sad and difficult to be proud of if I was B&O.

Bravo Puncher. It must be clear. Because it seems that some BeoFan seem to have forgotten it.

Emil Jensen
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Peter Pan:

Puncher:
B&O's best ever TV isn't actually a B&O TV but an LG.
B&O's best ever TV isn't actually the best anymore, others are better.
I would find both of these to be sad and difficult to be proud of if I was B&O.

Bravo Puncher. It must be clear. Because it seems that some BeoFan seem to have forgotten it.

Though B&O have never been the best,

And the difference from LG to Sony or Panasonic is so small that only a hand ful of people are able to see the difference.

I keep repeating my self, and no one actully show any prove of their statements.

Look at the link I made to Flatpanels, the difference is very small, Eclipse have 94% in picture, the best Sony have 97%, 

And it is coming from people who are looking at old tv's that a far worse.

It is a joke.

First you go Oled you never go back, Any Oled

 

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Peter Pan
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Bang & Olufsen has had to do twice in three months
downgrade expectations as a result of disappointing sales.

ritzau. - April 4, 2019. Click here.

I think Bang & Olufsen owes us a thousand excuses, because of their bad way of handling our brand.

Greetings from a disillusioned BeoFan.

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Sandyb replied on Thu, Apr 4 2019 9:13 AM

All OLED TV's produce the same PQ?

OK, I'm sure the reviewers out there will be glad to know they are wasting their time.

Everyone's sensitivity is different.

Yes you're broadly correct, coming from old panel tech, all OLED's likely be appear a lot better.

That drives the decision to upgrade - not how to chose between them.

I've spent a lot of time doing side by side of Sony's vs LG's - the Sony upscaling of regular broadcast TV is so much better. Just one example.

 

 

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Peter Pan:

Puncher:
B&O's best ever TV isn't actually a B&O TV but an LG.
B&O's best ever TV isn't actually the best anymore, others are better.
I would find both of these to be sad and difficult to be proud of if I was B&O.

Bravo Puncher. It must be clear. Because it seems that some BeoFan seem to have forgotten it.

If a BV like the Eclipse was just a tv, you might be right.

A BV is much more than just the picture....that is the reason why I always have had BeoVisions.

You might think different - which is fine to me.

I go for the whole package, not just a screen technology.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Thu, Apr 4 2019 9:46 AM

Not that old chestnut again!! Please note that all my comments are about the vision side of the product. No matter how many times you claim otherwise the TV is a straight forward LG - you know, I know it and, to their eternal shame, B&O know it too!

Ban boring signatures!

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Puncher:

Not that old chestnut again!! Please note that all my comments are about the vision side of the product. No matter how many times you claim otherwise the TV is a straight forward LG - you know, I know it and, to their eternal shame, B&O know it too!

Puncher, would you rather have a worse picture, and it was made in house?

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Puncher replied on Thu, Apr 4 2019 11:23 AM

Why would you assume it would be worse!Huh?

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Puncher:

Not that old chestnut again!! Please note that all my comments are about the vision side of the product. No matter how many times you claim otherwise the TV is a straight forward LG - you know, I know it and, to their eternal shame, B&O know it too!

Yes, that old chestnut is still cracking fresh.

To me ‘picture quality’ is one of the ingredients in a BV.......maybe not even the most important.

In my way of living B&O you can’t simply divide ‘the vision side’ from everything else in a BeoVision.

You might think different - I have no problem with that.

When cooperating with LG is the best way to make a current BV, I see no reason why not to do it - the (A/V) world is full of cooperations.

Whether someone is willing - or able - to pay for such a product is a personal thing, which hardly can be discussed.

 

’Till this day noone has tried to connect a ‘straight forward LG’ to the Sound Center.

And guess why........it’s not worth the try, it won’t work - won’t give you what may be considered a B&O product.

 

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV

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BEOVOX141 replied on Thu, Apr 4 2019 11:35 AM

Millemissen:
When cooperating with LG is the best way to make a current BV, I see no reason why not to do it

Out of pure curiosity: Would you consider the Eclipse architecture better or worse than the traditional Beosystem approach?

And would you agree, being an Avant owner, that a  Beosystem 5 is more or less already there?

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Puncher:

Why would you assume it would be worse!Huh?

Because of the really fast development there have been, with HDR.

And if you look at LOEWE they have not been able to make it very good.

So yea I would definitely assume this.

Also seen in hind side, B&O have never delivered the best picture, so why would they now??? 

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Emil Jensen
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Sandyb:

 

I've spent a lot of time doing side by side of Sony's vs LG's - the Sony upscaling of regular broadcast TV is so much better. Just one example.

 

Hallo Sandyb,

Sorry if it seem a bit harsh,

But in what conditions have you made these test?

What settings were the TV in, or were they calibrated?

And do you have any tech sites to back it up?

So much better, seems like wrong setting to me.

I had a 1080P Oled before, an honestly I dont notice much difference, else than HDR.

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Peter Pan replied on Thu, Apr 4 2019 12:46 PM

Hej Emil Jensen - Du får det lige på DK, da jeg ikke gider at omregne til Euro før til sidst.
LG kommer nu med LG OLED 55" C9 til 18.990 Kr. Så nu er det tid til en ny beregning.
Minus priser på Motor stand (rabat) og Beoremote One = 13.400 Kr. BeoVision LG OLED 55" C7, koster
75.000 Kr. Minus 13.400 Kr. = 61.600 Kr. Minus LG C9 18.990 Kr. = 42.610 Kr. for B&O's Sound Center.

5.709 Euro. Only for B&O Sound Center. You honestly think this is a fair price. ?

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Hey Peter Pan,

 

I am trying to not talk about pricing,

But what alternatives there is, and no one can come with an alternative???

In the same time I am trying to make it clear that thing was not better in the past, as clearly many think?

You your self have paid an insane amount for a BV7 do you honestly think that is a fair amount?

 

For me it is clear I have the same feeling like all other owners of the Eclipse. Try buy one and tell me if it worth it.

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Emil Jensen:
But what alternatives there is, and no one can come with an alternative???

Hi Emil 

I think you need to clearly stipulate the conditions before we come up with an alternative?

I.e. what are the mandatory requirements ?

 

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Sandyb replied on Thu, Apr 4 2019 1:12 PM

Most av / tv reviews point out how superior Sony's extreme processing chipset is.

That shouldn't be news.

They do similarly with Panasonic and its (a) colour accuracy, and (b) natural looking colours.

Again, not news.

I'm not here to get in to a big spec debate.

Your view is that BV's never offered top notch picture quality. Its not a literal issue of being the sole best. Viewed that way, you are correct.

But at times, they have offered a compelling image package - the 12 being an example, and I guess there will be this who point out the 7-55 I think.

The Eclipse is no doubt very good at. a base level.

Some, including myself, would prefer, irrespective of underlying panel brand, that it had one of the better processing engines.

And its perfectly reasonable to not mind LG's video processing. Coupled with the missing B&O heritage feel, the nakedly hybrid feel of the Eclipse, and a design that is no way a classic - makes it less compelling.

Neither view are right or wrong.

What is wrong is to say that all OLED's are exactly the same image.

At which point, I bid you adieu.

 

 

Peter Pan
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@  Emil
Then you will not relate to reality. A 5.1 / 7.1.4 Surround Processes is what most
hifi enthusiasts in the world use for their TV screens. They are also satisfied.

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BEOVOX141:

Emil Jensen:
But what alternatives there is, and no one can come with an alternative???

Hi Emil 

I think you need to clearly stipulate the conditions before we come up with an alternative?

I.e. what are the mandatory requirements ?

 

2 axel motor stand, as My tv is against the wall,

A remote that is not plastic,

Oled screen,

One remote for everything so my girlfriend wants to use it,

God surround processor, and with WiSa if possible, that is more a nice to have than need to have.

And a Center speaker that can perform with my Beolab 20

If it can look pretty in the same time I would prefer it, but for fun lets say that does not matter at all.

If you cannot fit all the boxes, then please show me anyway. 

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Sandyb replied on Thu, Apr 4 2019 1:21 PM

He is of the view that people who don't feel compelled by the Eclipse are critiquing it from a distance, without trying it.

Like many I suspect, by now we have given it a proper look, of a bunch of occasions, and still don't feel compelled by it.

Again, that shouldnt be difficult to understand or accept.

Where MM and others are correct, and actually most would agree on, is that BV's as a all in one / more than screen offering can be a great thing.

But as I've said before, there are compromises in almost every TV - many enthusiasts are unhappy that top end form factors (Wallpaper, Rollable) or panels (Panasonic GZ200) come bundled with sound solutions that enthusiasts don't often want.

The best OS,  the best video processing, the best audio options / connectivity don't exist in a single offering.

It's not a perfect world.

Emil Jensen
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Sandyb:

Most av / tv reviews point out how superior Sony's extreme processing chipset is.

That shouldn't be news.

 

Hallo Sandyb,

Could you give me these examples?

 

Beovision Harmony 77" 2nd Gen, Beolab 5, Beolab 17, Beosound 1, Beoplay M3, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay Earset, Beoliving Intelligence 

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