ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
So what remains is, when will the negative (internet)infuenced potential customer realize that the Eclipse and Harmony are softwarestable .televisions,
An option for those is to buy a Stage with Beoremote and combine it with a discount LG C9 at some time. When it feels right, they will have the option to trade-in the Stage and go for the Eclipse or Harmonygear and keep their LG panel.
Beobuddy: koning: @Beobuddy, This guy owned: Beolab 5 Beolab 1 Beolab 6000 Beolab 8000 Beolab penta Beovision 8-40 Beovision 10-40 Beovision 11-46 Beosound 5 Beoplay A1/A2 Beotime And you? Way more, but I wasn't aware that it would turn in some kind of contest. The question is, were did it go wrong somewhere on this list? I can imagine that it started with the BS5, which worked well when it was released. But after some time the need for more (internet)functionality became the issue where the BS5 wasn't designed for..I remember that you ditched the new acquired Core for the Node. Which version was it? The first, second or already the third version?
koning: @Beobuddy, This guy owned: Beolab 5 Beolab 1 Beolab 6000 Beolab 8000 Beolab penta Beovision 8-40 Beovision 10-40 Beovision 11-46 Beosound 5 Beoplay A1/A2 Beotime And you?
@Beobuddy,
This guy owned:
Beolab 5
Beolab 1
Beolab 6000
Beolab 8000
Beolab penta
Beovision 8-40
Beovision 10-40
Beovision 11-46
Beosound 5
Beoplay A1/A2
Beotime
And you?
Way more, but I wasn't aware that it would turn in some kind of contest.
The question is, were did it go wrong somewhere on this list? I can imagine that it started with the BS5, which worked well when it was released. But after some time the need for more (internet)functionality became the issue where the BS5 wasn't designed for..I remember that you ditched the new acquired Core for the Node. Which version was it? The first, second or already the third version?
First of all, B&O is your work.
It was no contest, but your answer that b&o is too expensive for me.
Let me say it otherwise,
Were do you think it went wrong with the B&O company?
koning: Let me say it otherwise, Were do you think it went wrong with the B&O company?
In my view nothing went wrong with B&O!
The hurdles of a modern technologial and social world just got bigger during the last decade - and maybe bigger than expected - for a small company, that aims at selling integrated audio and video solutions to those who care.
They had to reorganize and redefine themselves.........a process that is ongoing.
I am aware that a lot of the ‘old’ costumer s (with their houses filled with good B&O stuff) can’t follow.
However there can be no other way, even if this causes trouble on the way - or.......what would you suggest?
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
I'm not really sure what the "hurdles of a modern technological and social world" means to be honest.
Consuming media is not quite the same experience now as it was 20 years ago - of course those changes are not B&Os fault.
How they have responded to them though, is entirely their responsibility.
Plenty of companies successful in the pre-digital era (if you like) have been swept away, but a lack of agility and failure to recognise the new priorities is a common theme.
While design of form factor is still important in AV, software has gone from low down the list to paramount, and here they have been appalling.
To argue nothing went wrong is myopia of the highest order.
Again, B&O should bring you to the next investor presentation - try saying nothing went wrong to the investor community.
Millemissen:In my view nothing went wrong with B&O! MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
.
Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
Sandyb: I'm not really sure what the "hurdles of a modern technological and social world" means to be honest. Consuming media is not quite the same experience now as it was 20 years ago - of course those changes are not B&Os fault. How they have responded to them though, is entirely their responsibility. Plenty of companies successful in the pre-digital era (if you like) have been swept away, but a lack of agility and failure to recognise the new priorities is a common theme. While design of form factor is still important in AV, software has gone from low down the list to paramount, and here they have been appalling. To argue nothing went wrong is myopia of the highest order. Again, B&O should bring you to the next investor presentation - try saying nothing went wrong to the investor community.
I sure know we don’t agree there.
However, when the new CEO says that he is quite content with the recent product line and what is in the pipeline now - and that he is concerned about the distribution, it tells me, that they already have gone a long way. But maybe that is appalling, too?
I’ll surely go there, if possible.
Each year at the general meetings I hear that the bigger shareholders, who regularly have representatives there, still trust B&O.
I do not expect that to change in April.
Maybe you are just too concerned ;-)
Maybe you just want them to be something else than what they are now ;-)
Barry Santini:European old-style, no longer applicable thinking about marketing. Listen to your customers: They’ll tell you how to run your business.
Listen to your customers: They’ll tell you how to run your business.
That is a tuff one.
Reading on this forum almost anyone want something different - just read the ‘What would you wish from B&O for Christmas’-thread.
Who should they listen to?
seethroughyou: Millemissen: In my view nothing went wrong with B&O! MM There is a tv - and there is a BV. Remarkable. A freak of nature. Either this MM is a genius and we, the employees of B&O, the investors, the customers and dealers are all wrong (when we say that B&O have made some grave mistakes and at times been negligent of their dealers and customer service). Perhaps MM is right or this is the most perfect example of self-delusion going on.
Millemissen: In my view nothing went wrong with B&O! MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Remarkable. A freak of nature. Either this MM is a genius and we, the employees of B&O, the investors, the customers and dealers are all wrong (when we say that B&O have made some grave mistakes and at times been negligent of their dealers and customer service). Perhaps MM is right or this is the most perfect example of self-delusion going on.
Why read all I wrote in that post.
Sandyb - at least - refered to the entire post.
But ok - it is much easier to pick out just one sentence.
P.S. I would never, ever think of calling someone ‘a freak’.....even if we disagree heavily.
koning:
How low can you go?
Millemissen:How low can you go? MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
I hear that B&O has increased Danish chocolate rations for their employees from 30 to 25 gms a week!
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
I don't know what the future holds for the video lineup, but from my many years on the inside I can tell you the hard reality of a company that small making televisions in any way shape or form was becoming truly gruesome to behold.
There's just not enough scale so you're buying panels ahead of time that will be "on the way out" at best by the time they're deliverable in their final form - so you're perpetually at odds with the customer expectation that the highest price = the latest and greatest panels. And I admit that B&O's modifications usually made last years panel look like next years' in terms of real viewing improvements, but it was never enough for most people.
I sold a lot of BeoVisions in my time (and still own a few), but they were always to people who wanted them for their looks. These are the same people who'd pay $7,500 to put a $900 TV on a lift so they didn't have to see i
Jeff:I hear that B&O has increased Danish chocolate rations for their employees from 30 to 25 gms a week!
seethroughyou: Millemissen: How low can you go? MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Millemissen: How low can you go? MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Carolpa: You mean that you are deaf, blind and are in denial that this forum is a part of: "is Bang & Olufsen in trouble"?
You mean that you are deaf, blind and are in denial that this forum is a part of: "is Bang & Olufsen in trouble"?
This forum is slowly turning into something that scares B&O newcomers away from B&O.
But maybe that is what the dedicated crepe hangers want!
Hey there,
I wish everybody a merry Christmas!
I can sort of see both viewpoints. On the one side, B&O has done well in surviving and there are certainly a lot of intelligent people at Struer thinking about what to do in order to stay competitive in an increasingly difficult market. Just as an indication: look at what is happening to the second hand market right now. While there still seems to be demand for the truely vintage stuff like Beomaster 8000 and the likes (most likely caused by scarcity of supply), prices for the mid80s to late 90s products that receive so much praise on here are on a radical decline (supply is still plentiful and demand is sharply decreasing). The Beocenter 9500, although truely great, fetches roughly 250 Euros if in good condition and Pentas quite frequently sell for even less than that here in Germany now. Apparently society, culture, customers' tastes etc. have changed such there is no longer much demand for these iconic calssics. In this regard, probably those writing here on the forum are not really representative, since it is us who tend to like B&O exactly for what they did back then. But you can't survive based on what a minority desires. Therefore, there is a need to adapt, and adapt they have done fairly well from my point of view.
However, on the other hand, I also see a lot of problems with the newer products and particularly the design. Jacob Jensen and David Lewis really left a mark here and with both of them gone apparently no successor was able to fill the void until now. What is more, competition has caught up and the often-cited magic is too expensive to produce. It also seems to be increasingly difficult to come up with an easily distiguishable and coherent design language. Everybody is copying everybody, quality material inputs are very expensive now, costs of production need to be cut, etc. Therefore, the niche B&O used to serve is getting narrower and narrower and while I can appreciate some of the efforts they took in order to accomplish that goal, others may have been less glorious. More specifically, there were quite a couple of quality problems, something unseen with the company some time ago. Still I like what they are doing and am very positive that there is plenty more to come that will please many of us in the future.
Cheers,
Kai
I would rather not see this forum degenerate into a picture board. Please elaborate a bit more on whatever you have to say.
--mika
Its this forum that scares off new customers?
Some would suggest its selling AV equipment at very premium prices in todays world, especially those beset by sub standard software and a lack of consistent iconic designs might really the problem.
Negativity only comes with problems.
But of course, they've done nothing wrong.
Please do call the CEo and tell him he is wrong to describe the company in a crisis.
Millemissen: Carolpa: You mean that you are deaf, blind and are in denial that this forum is a part of: "is Bang & Olufsen in trouble"? This forum is slowly turning into something that scares B&O newcomers away from B&O. But maybe that is what the dedicated crepe hangers want! MM
Given the issues with too many B&O products lately, if this forum scares off potential buyers perhaps that's good, for them if not for B&O.
However,
one shouldn't puff up two unanswered emails here if something is about to be fixed with a software update for a new product.
10% on 20 cents….
B&O’s problems are all self-inflicted and amplified by what is known as the “Intellectual Yet Idiot” (IYI) Political Class at B&O:-
1. It kept making products the same way for years past its sell-by date.
2. It failed to change with the times quickly enough and kept its old irrelevant ways.
3. Manufacturing process may have been up there but the IYIs failed spectacularly to understand the morphing nature of the beast.
4. The Political class has hung on to too much product R&D (over-development) without much real and practical research. Large loudspeakers – yes, plenty, the rest – no or limited.
5. Which follows on to that there has been a hang-on to too much mechanized gizmo style over practical workable and functioning substance (software)
6. Disastrous in-roads into Telephones when partnership with Nokia (at the zeitgeist of time) could have been more profitable?
7. Failure to move products to a cost effect work platform (Far East) soon enough.
8. An over-reaction to make high quality BT mono-speakers. Great…needed but man cannot live on BT mono speakers alone.
9. A move to tie Dealerships into to glossy $150k store face-lifts when the B&O books would have clearly indicated in a clear timeframe the exact opposite (IYIs thinking glossy stores make sales alone). Sure if your business sales are outstripping production capacity, move up-market and discriminate/differentiate (Rolex). If not, hunker-down and re-think - quickly and clearly.
10.Make a state-of-the-art outlier-product loudspeakers for the $80k and $30k segments with zero support? Hand-over that peripheral business to the 3rd party Streamer/DAC market with no fight or clear business message to the so-called audiophile community?
11.Finally, back to the IYI Political Class. Chairman of the Board – up to his eyebrows in Danske Bank corruption and seems to have resigned from everywhere he had fingers in pies – except B&O. Open/revolving door for same-type sycophants with fancy job-titles, designer eyeware and non-jobs? How much has this Company really been held back?
12.This Forum may not have helped as a true sounding board for the archaic B&O golden years (Jenson & Lewis multi-CD spinners with Blu-ray etc….ditto vertical turntables. I mean? Same old ideas revamped).
People often say that B&O cannott compete? Why not? Look at the newcomers….Auralic, PS Audio(?), Mytek, Schlitt, Dutch & Dutch, Kii, dCS and many others can make state-of the art products that work properly and sound very very good. Try and buy an Auralic G2 component without waiting 2-4 weeks? So there is a strong business out there if you talk Hi-Fi and there is a very strong (albeit competitive) market out there for high-end Sonos-class gear. It is just that B&O, its Board and its internal political class have been too arrogant to change their internal business models – nether mind the external business model need.
However, where this Forum Board can help…….is to move away from its own inward perception of holding on to the good’o’days of Jensen and Lewis and 6-diskers and look out there to what is currently in state-of-the-art. Boxey but SOTA. Push in whatever way we can by asking if such a product has a real market chance and if can be B&O-ized (sans the software failures and the margin-eating mechanisms).
B&O NEEDS to implode in on itself, crush-out the profit-absorbing political class and re-invest small scale with true hi-fi/high-end gear built/designed by Danish engineers and compete with the Companies mentioned above. It will be the next significant company milestone.
/RANT mode OFF
Mr 10Percent:10% on 20 cents…. B&O’s problems are all self-inflicted and amplified by what is known as the “Intellectual Yet Idiot” (IYI) Political Class at B&O:- 1. It kept making products the same way for years past its sell-by date. 2. It failed to change with the times quickly enough and kept its old irrelevant ways. 3. Manufacturing process may have been up there but the IYIs failed spectacularly to understand the morphing nature of the beast. 4. The Political class has hung on to too much product R&D (over-development) without much real and practical research. Large loudspeakers – yes, plenty, the rest – no or limited. 5. Which follows on to that there has been a hang-on to too much mechanized gizmo style over practical workable and functioning substance (software) 6. Disastrous in-roads into Telephones when partnership with Nokia (at the zeitgeist of time) could have been more profitable? 7. Failure to move products to a cost effect work platform (Far East) soon enough. 8. An over-reaction to make high quality BT mono-speakers. Great…needed but man cannot live on BT mono speakers alone. 9. A move to tie Dealerships into to glossy $150k store face-lifts when the B&O books would have clearly indicated in a clear timeframe the exact opposite (IYIs thinking glossy stores make sales alone). Sure if your business sales are outstripping production capacity, move up-market and discriminate/differentiate (Rolex). If not, hunker-down and re-think - quickly and clearly. 10. Make a state-of-the-art outlier-product loudspeakers for the $80k and $30k segments with zero support? Hand-over that peripheral business to the 3rd party Streamer/DAC market with no fight or clear business message to the so-called audiophile community? 11. Finally, back to the IYI Political Class. Chairman of the Board – up to his eyebrows in Danske Bank corruption and seems to have resigned from everywhere he had fingers in pies – except B&O. Open/revolving door for same-type sycophants with fancy job-titles, designer eyeware and non-jobs? How much has this Company really been held back? 12. This Forum may not have helped as a true sounding board for the archaic B&O golden years (Jenson & Lewis multi-CD spinners with Blu-ray etc….ditto vertical turntables. I mean? Same old ideas revamped). People often say that B&O cannott compete? Why not? Look at the newcomers….Auralic, PS Audio(?), Mytek, Schlitt, Dutch & Dutch, Kii, dCS and many others can make state-of the art products that work properly and sound very very good. Try and buy an Auralic G2 component without waiting 2-4 weeks? So there is a strong business out there if you talk Hi-Fi and there is a very strong (albeit competitive) market out there for high-end Sonos-class gear. It is just that B&O, its Board and its internal political class have been too arrogant to change their internal business models – nether mind the external business model need. However, where this Forum Board can help…….is to move away from its own inward perception of holding on to the good’o’days of Jensen and Lewis and 6-diskers and look out there to what is currently in state-of-the-art. Boxey but SOTA. Push in whatever way we can by asking if such a product has a real market chance and if can be B&O-ized ( sans the software failures and the margin-eating mechanisms). B&O NEEDS to implode in on itself, crush-out the profit-absorbing political class and re-invest small scale with true hi-fi/high-end gear built/designed by Danish engineers and compete with the Companies mentioned above. It will be the next significant company milestone. /RANT mode OFF
BV Harmony 65 / Eclipse 55 / BL 50 / 19 / 18 / BS 2 all brass
BV Horizon 48 / V1 40 / BL 17 / Beoplay S3 all black
V1 / BL 3 / BS Essence MKII / Beoplay A3 all white
BS Moment / BS 3000 / BS 3200 / BL 400 all silver
Headphones / bluetooth speakers / BLC NL-ML / BLGateway
I know…B&O virus has grown on me !
In my view, there is a strong causality between revenue / sales growth
and the product quality perception by the customer, indicated by star-rating in Apple App Store.
Or is it just a correlation or pure coincidence?
It would be interesting how the B&O leadership team interprets these development.
I didn’t really expect my OP to lead to all these observations about B&O! I certainly wanted to highlight a problem with their online customer service.
My refund finally came through today.
I ended up buying a Ruark Audio R5. It’s excellent.
Over and out.
Your OP coincided with their latest results, which were horrible.
I guess that event broadened the scope of the discussion here.
Forester1: I didn’t really expect my OP to lead to all these observations about B&O! I certainly wanted to highlight a problem with their online customer service. My refund finally came through today. I ended up buying a Ruark Audio R5. It’s excellent. Over and out.
Forester1:I didn’t really expect my OP to lead to all these observations about B&O! I certainly wanted to highlight a problem with their online customer service.My refund finally came through today. I ended up buying a Ruark Audio R5. It’s excellent. Over and out.
seethroughyou: Forester1: I didn’t really expect my OP to lead to all these observations about B&O! I certainly wanted to highlight a problem with their online customer service. My refund finally came through today. I ended up buying a Ruark Audio R5. It’s excellent. Over and out. And there’s the rub. I now find myself turning to other manufacturers for audio and visual. 10 years ago, B&O would have been my first and only port of call. Either I am now making bad buying decisions or B&O is making bad stuff. My patience with Bs5 and with the Moment gave run out and now I’m convicted to never ever to buy a B&O audio machine ever again. I’m beyond confident that it would be substandard in build, have recurrent software and reliability issues only to be discontinued several years later. I have complete trust and faith in B&O that will churn out products with these deficits with impressive regularity. Yet at the same time, I hope that someone, somewhere will change the trajectory.
And there’s the rub. I now find myself turning to other manufacturers for audio and visual. 10 years ago, B&O would have been my first and only port of call. Either I am now making bad buying decisions or B&O is making bad stuff. My patience with Bs5 and with the Moment gave run out and now I’m convicted to never ever to buy a B&O audio machine ever again.
I’m beyond confident that it would be substandard in build, have recurrent software and reliability issues only to be discontinued several years later. I have complete trust and faith in B&O that will churn out products with these deficits with impressive regularity. Yet at the same time, I hope that someone, somewhere will change the trajectory.
Fear not, MM will be along shortly to "re-educate" you!
Ban boring signatures!
seethroughyou:And there’s the rub. I now find myself turning to other manufacturers for audio and visual.
I see it as you do, after the experience I had with the Beosound5 and even worse the Beosound Moment. I’ve moved on to the Beosound Core, at least it is working (normally I would not mention it, when talking about B&O that is already something special these days), but still the user experience is far far away from enjoyable / easy to use.
Maybe I am special because not only do I use Deezer (the only use case B&O seems to focus on), but I also have a large mp3 collection on my NAS and still like to listen to my CDs from time to time. Currently I am testing Roon Labs and TIDAL.
I am not sure yet which direction to go and if Roon Labs and / or Sonos could be a solution. But lang story short, I am one of those people who buy less and less B&O equipment every year and thus contributing to commercial crisis of B&O.
Am I the only one here buying B&O because of the brand name ?
Sure I don't expect a TV to last me a couple of years because the technology is moving really fast. What's left is a beautiful design with a brand name on my wall.
You can buy a gold ring for $500 dollars or spend $8000 on very similar Cartier ring. It's all about the brand name. B&O was known for being a luxury high-end AV brand.Unfortunately, except for the BL50 " maybe" new models aren't everyone's taste. This is a pure subjective opinion however, the BV11/14 and the Avant are much more appealing to look at than the Eclipse or the Harmony.I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one; you can see the comments on B&O videos on Youtube... 2014-2015 : " Stunning", " I wish I can afford it one day", " Art! Now all i need is my lottery ticket to win", 2017 : "B&O, shame you... a Soundboard for LG OLED55C7 for €6250" , " so 11k for an lg screen with no mods at all and a soundbar that doesn't support dolby atmos", " A LG C7 panel with B&O custom speakers and a few overpriced gimmicks that's all "2019 : "B&O appear to have lost their way, with this TV they seem to think that gimmickry compensates for quality and the pricing of this is ridiculous!" , "I don't feel it..."
What I'm trying to say is that there's definitely a change in how people look at the brand and think about it. You can even feel it in the forum. Then they tell you B&O isn't doing well because it's a niche market... No it's not. People have money... They are standing in line at Louis Vuitton for EUR 3000 pair of boots. They are after the brand. People renovating their apartments, buying Fendi, Minotti etc.. and spending hundreds of thousands on furniture won't mind paying 30 grand on a TV....BUT THEY WILL WHEN THE F**ING TV WON'T WORK FLAWLESSLY.
Sorry I lost my temper but this is a very serious issue that is very detrimental to B&O reputation.B&O is a package of " High quality, Premium service, iconic design and luxury". What's left of all that is the high quality ONLY.
Their service is almost non existent. Support is very slow, software development is catastrophic and the trust in the brand is going downhill.
Then there's the marketing which I don't see at all. B&O did quite a good job when it was introduced in the AUDI cars back in time. People were all over the internet talking about the fancy tweeters, the amazing sound system which will cost you a leg but definitely worth it. Where are we now ?
Introduce more people to the brand, but before you do that, your products should be mature enough for marketing.
There's an old saying, wealthy people have wealthy friends.... One customer with a negative experience and you lose 10 potential customers.
I'll also add something to this discussion.
Support. Terrible. My BV12-65 stopped working in....early November. In January 2020 it's still no further from being fixed. You just can't get the direct support or engineer support you did a few years ago. I just can't get anyone to help fix it. If your local store goes, you really are in trouble. You're just left with a non-working TV stuck on the wall for months.
I did manage to get an old bloke with an old laptop to have a look at it, but he was none-the-wiser. And that just got me even more concerned.
The whole system comes across as a mess which is ready to implode. I've been with B&O a long time and something doesn't feel right to me.
I'm half-tempted to just ditch the entire TV and get an LG C9. And after years of B&O support, it will be me....out.
And thats a real issue with investing / re-investing large amounts of money in newer B&O gear.
I'm in London, and there's a chance even my dealer moves on.
He's generally very good and helpful, but given the uncertainty, it might well be folly investing 10k in a TV.
Part of what I pay for is the service of paying someone to come and just sort everything out for me.
And sorry about the 12-65, here's hoping it can be resuscitated!
moxxey: I'll also add something to this discussion. Support. Terrible. My BV12-65 stopped working in....early November. In January 2020 it's still no further from being fixed. You just can't get the direct support or engineer support you did a few years ago. I just can't get anyone to help fix it. If your local store goes, you really are in trouble. You're just left with a non-working TV stuck on the wall for months. I did manage to get an old bloke with an old laptop to have a look at it, but he was none-the-wiser. And that just got me even more concerned. The whole system comes across as a mess which is ready to implode. I've been with B&O a long time and something doesn't feel right to me. I'm half-tempted to just ditch the entire TV and get an LG C9. And after years of B&O support, it will be me....out.
Sandyb: He's generally very good and helpful, but given the uncertainty, it might well be folly investing 10k in a TV.
I can't justify an Eclipse now I can see an LG C9 55" for just over £1000 and a Stage for just over £1000. Wall-mounted and with the BeoRemote you have a decent setup for £2500 or less.
New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0
Mikipedia on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Mikipedia
Mikipedi4 on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mikipedi4
Mikipedia on Intagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikipedi4/
Old: Beosound 9000 mk3, Beolab 3's, Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.
Mikipidia:Have you thought about sending it to B&O manchester for repair?
Sending it? It's a 3-man install job! How would I send it? It's huge and heavy! You make it sound like i can bubble wrap and walk it to the Post Office :)
It's a staggering 76Kg. The weight of an average man. 140cm wide, too.
Oh sorry, I thought is was the Bs4 bit that was faulty