ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
bayerische: Puncher: I look at my beautiful bs5000 system in the corner and, as beautiful as it is, in truth it could be replaced by a photograph! My music listening these days is in the car, Google home while pottering in the kitchen and BT headphones (Sony). I remember when music was vital and important and had to be actively listened to - I'm not necessarily saying music has changed (it has but that's a discussion for when I have a pint in my hand) but me and my habits. Is it an age thing or has culture changed? This may be for a different thred but I really believe the convenience of music availibilty has greatly lessened it's perceived value to the point it has become either musical wallpaper or else the "imbetween" stuff is skipped to only play the hits etc. It's truly a different world with different players and b&o are in danger of being the old duffer battling Alzheimer's! Same here (to an extent), my BL5's haven't been providing anything but background music for years. Last time I actively listened to them (whit a drink in my hand) must have been back in 2015. Amazing what dogs and kids to to your life. No I don't blame them, it is me who has changed. I too agree with you Puncher, music is available everywhere I go. I have all the thousands of albums right there in my pocket. Sure listening trough a nice pair of headphones (at current my most used pair is the new H9's) isn't getting even close to the pleasure of my BL9's at a proper level. I simply don't have the time, well time yes, but not the convenience. My house is so full of B&O gear that I'm sure my wife will soon either divorce me or have me locked up in a closed mental health ward.
Puncher: I look at my beautiful bs5000 system in the corner and, as beautiful as it is, in truth it could be replaced by a photograph! My music listening these days is in the car, Google home while pottering in the kitchen and BT headphones (Sony). I remember when music was vital and important and had to be actively listened to - I'm not necessarily saying music has changed (it has but that's a discussion for when I have a pint in my hand) but me and my habits. Is it an age thing or has culture changed? This may be for a different thred but I really believe the convenience of music availibilty has greatly lessened it's perceived value to the point it has become either musical wallpaper or else the "imbetween" stuff is skipped to only play the hits etc. It's truly a different world with different players and b&o are in danger of being the old duffer battling Alzheimer's!
I look at my beautiful bs5000 system in the corner and, as beautiful as it is, in truth it could be replaced by a photograph!
My music listening these days is in the car, Google home while pottering in the kitchen and BT headphones (Sony).
I remember when music was vital and important and had to be actively listened to - I'm not necessarily saying music has changed (it has but that's a discussion for when I have a pint in my hand) but me and my habits. Is it an age thing or has culture changed?
This may be for a different thred but I really believe the convenience of music availibilty has greatly lessened it's perceived value to the point it has become either musical wallpaper or else the "imbetween" stuff is skipped to only play the hits etc.
It's truly a different world with different players and b&o are in danger of being the old duffer battling Alzheimer's!
Same here (to an extent), my BL5's haven't been providing anything but background music for years. Last time I actively listened to them (whit a drink in my hand) must have been back in 2015. Amazing what dogs and kids to to your life.
No I don't blame them, it is me who has changed. I too agree with you Puncher, music is available everywhere I go. I have all the thousands of albums right there in my pocket. Sure listening trough a nice pair of headphones (at current my most used pair is the new H9's) isn't getting even close to the pleasure of my BL9's at a proper level. I simply don't have the time, well time yes, but not the convenience. My house is so full of B&O gear that I'm sure my wife will soon either divorce me or have me locked up in a closed mental health ward.
I feel really sorry for you guys.
It is a pity that you don’t seem to be in control of your life.......or at least of your (listening) habits ;-)
And that you don’t seem to be wanting to change them - and blame it an ‘age thing or change of culture’
Maybe facts like these are a bigger thread to B&O than anything else.....why should B&O keep on producing stuff that nobody needs?
Having a lot of B&O seems absurd, when you don’t use it.....unless you want to live in a museum without wife ;-))
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Take a breath.
There obviously has been change in how people listen to music over the last 20 years or so.
Not just on the go, but even at home, with fewer wanting / needing audio gear as a visible or feature part of their living set up.
That's a challenging environment for B&O ( and others).
One that they have not made easier, with their horrific execution and all over the pace design language.
Your default position of batting away any or most critique has proved to be horribly wrong.
Yes, ppl still hang around in hope, but that's a different issue.
The share price does not lie.
Millemissen: bayerische: Puncher: I look at my beautiful bs5000 system in the corner and, as beautiful as it is, in truth it could be replaced by a photograph! My music listening these days is in the car, Google home while pottering in the kitchen and BT headphones (Sony). I remember when music was vital and important and had to be actively listened to - I'm not necessarily saying music has changed (it has but that's a discussion for when I have a pint in my hand) but me and my habits. Is it an age thing or has culture changed? This may be for a different thred but I really believe the convenience of music availibilty has greatly lessened it's perceived value to the point it has become either musical wallpaper or else the "imbetween" stuff is skipped to only play the hits etc. It's truly a different world with different players and b&o are in danger of being the old duffer battling Alzheimer's! Same here (to an extent), my BL5's haven't been providing anything but background music for years. Last time I actively listened to them (whit a drink in my hand) must have been back in 2015. Amazing what dogs and kids to to your life. No I don't blame them, it is me who has changed. I too agree with you Puncher, music is available everywhere I go. I have all the thousands of albums right there in my pocket. Sure listening trough a nice pair of headphones (at current my most used pair is the new H9's) isn't getting even close to the pleasure of my BL9's at a proper level. I simply don't have the time, well time yes, but not the convenience. My house is so full of B&O gear that I'm sure my wife will soon either divorce me or have me locked up in a closed mental health ward. I feel really sorry for you guys. It is a pity that you don’t seem to be in control of your life.......or at least of your (listening) habits ;-) And that you don’t seem to be wanting to change them - and blame it an ‘age thing or change of culture’ Maybe facts like these are a bigger thread to B&O than anything else.....why should B&O keep on producing stuff that nobody needs? Having a lot of B&O seems absurd, when you don’t use it.....unless you want to live in a museum without wife ;-)) MM
Sandyb: Take a breath. There obviously has been change in how people listen to music over the last 20 years or so. Not just on the go, but even at home, with fewer wanting / needing audio gear as a visible or feature part of their living set up. That's a challenging environment for B&O ( and others). One that they have not made easier, with their horrific execution and all over the pace design language. Your default position of batting away any or most critique has proved to be horribly wrong. Yes, ppl still hang around in hope, but that's a different issue. The share price does not lie.
Go take a breath yourself - I was just adressing the fact that these two posts state, that you have to be active to choose to listen actively.
That is nothing that you can blame ‘the changes how people listen or the dog’.
If you don’t or won’t want to do that, it is a personal choice - nothing more, nothing less.
And that fact has - as you wrote - brought up challenges to what B&O can sell, produce.
B&O has IMO in reality made lots of product that might appeal more to that kind of listening - think of BS1/2, A9, the BS Shape.
The problem is, that many on the forum think these new things need to have an oldschool design to be good.....and therefore don’t buy them.
N.B. Why should I blame ‘bad sw’, when my things generally are working well - call that having a ‘default position’, if you want.
P.S. It is very long ago that the share prices were up - and B&O is still here.
We hear the same song from the forum members each time there has been a quarterly or yearly report from B&O.....keep it cool!
I am positive that the new CEO can bring up some changes - but I fear it won’t be changes that can satisfy the/most forum menbers.
I'm perfectly calm, and wasn't the one moving it the person realm or expressing pity.
Some of those, myself included, do have products like the A9 or one of the BS 1/2.
But as I've said to you before when you've constantly defended any critique with "well my stuff works" - if you had none of your existing (mostly not current) gear, and had to start from scratch, you'd be less happy than you are now, and would struggle to end up with something as elegant as you have now (a work around like a 3rd party screen and BS4 for ex, may well function for you, but its hard to argue its as elegant as what you have now).
They may well survive, who knows, but thats different from flourishing.
And while there are still people willing in theory to sink money into a B&O infrastructure at home, when it comes to bigger ticket items (not A9s), its a tough choice at the moment, when its not clear what if any company you will be facing off against customer service wise over the life of the product.
Thats entering vicious circle territory, which raises darker possibilities than one of just survival.
Millemissen: Sandyb: Take a breath. There obviously has been change in how people listen to music over the last 20 years or so. Not just on the go, but even at home, with fewer wanting / needing audio gear as a visible or feature part of their living set up. That's a challenging environment for B&O ( and others). One that they have not made easier, with their horrific execution and all over the pace design language. Your default position of batting away any or most critique has proved to be horribly wrong. Yes, ppl still hang around in hope, but that's a different issue. The share price does not lie. Go take a breath yourself - I was just adressing the fact that these two posts state, that you have to be active to choose to listen actively. That is nothing that you can blame ‘the changes how people listen or the dog’. If you don’t or won’t want to do that, it is a personal choice - nothing more, nothing less. And that fact has - as you wrote - brought up challenges to what B&O can sell, produce. B&O has IMO in reality made lots of product that might appeal more to that kind of listening - think of BS1/2, A9, the BS Shape. The problem is, that many on the forum think these new things need to have an oldschool design to be good.....and therefore don’t buy them. N.B. Why should I blame ‘bad sw’, when my things generally are working well - call that having a ‘default position’, if you want. P.S. It is very long ago that the share prices were up - and B&O is still here. We hear the same song from the forum members each time there has been a quarterly or yearly report from B&O.....keep it cool! I am positive that the new CEO can bring up some changes - but I fear it won’t be changes that can satisfy the/most forum menbers. MM
Sandyb: I'm perfectly calm, and wasn't the one moving it the person realm or expressing pity. Some of those, myself included, do have products like the A9 or one of the BS 1/2. But as I've said to you before when you've constantly defended any critique with "well my stuff works" - if you had none of your existing (mostly not current) gear, and had to start from scratch, you'd be less happy than you are now, and would struggle to end up with something as elegant as you have now (a work around like a 3rd party screen and BS4 for ex, may well function for you, but its hard to argue its as elegant as what you have now). They may well survive, who knows, but thats different from flourishing. And while there are still people willing in theory to sink money into a B&O infrastructure at home, when it comes to bigger ticket items (not A9s), its a tough choice at the moment, when its not clear what if any company you will be facing off against customer service wise over the life of the product. Thats entering vicious circle territory, which raises darker possibilities than one of just survival.
Although my two tv’s aren’t from the current range, the backbone of my whole-house setup is NL and therefore current.
And I have enough experience ‘away from home’ to know, what I am talking about.
Sorry to say it - those who write here is a minority of the B&O (device) owners and honestly those with no problem don’t post on socalled social media.
There are a lot of people out there, who just use their gear.
Not that I wouldn’t want to discuss what could be made better or different (for me and in general).
I am just hesitant with these discussions here, because it mostly ends up in B&O being completely unable to do anything right, having no clue of SW and best close their doors and sell to Huawei (as somebody recently proposed).
The result is that I - with my positivity - is being scolded as being a default fanboy.
IMO there are a lot of things, that B&O does right!
I would not want to miss what they do nowadays....even if I dislike the winky, winky Harmony and actively look for options maintaining rhe B&O backbone in my setup at home (you referred to my post with the 3rd party screen).
Sandyb: Your default position of batting away any or most critique has proved to be horribly wrong.
Good reply Sandyb.
Too long to list....
You're right, there is the risk that the subset of forum members may be representative of selection bias.
The most comprehensive referendum on their prospects though is their sales figures, which have been so awful the investor presentation itself describes it as a crisis. Maybe they should bring you along to tell investors that (a) my (older) stuff still works well, and (b) they still do some things well. Sure that will sort out the share price.
As for their software, it's been far closer to an absolute disaster and barely fit for purpose than it has to be either leading edge, on par, or what a premium brand should be delivering.
When the head himself describes them as being in a crisis, your protestations over recent years questioning why people are complaining have been shown to lack credibility.
That all said, I hope they find a way forward, through whatever route, sufficient to be able to continue to offer some strong products.
Again, an Eclipse Mk 2 is nowhere near imminent or coming at all.
Yes they definitely thought about it, but that was a. while ago, and do not hold your breath.
Aussie Michael:I hear the eclipse mk2 isn’t too far away So everyone calm your farm I think we have all discussed B&O being in trouble many times and they seem to weather the storm. Recently they posted a few job ads for software people so I’m sure it’s a focus for them Even if coding is done overseas it’s not the coding but the management of the coding and testing and creating accurate test cases that’s important against that code. If I can save enough I’m likely to get an eclipse over a harmony because of the fact of the moving stand and a few other things too. But it is correct to assume that customer service is the priority here. B&O I always say: You have no customers, you have no business. So keep that in mind. And I don’t care if others say you’re a small company. I don’t care. You are playing in a global market. You’re in most countries. Also B&O you cant contravene local country laws. If I bring a product back for a refund and it’s stipulated in my countries law. I don’t care whether you want to accept that or not. Nor do I need to wait for you to accept a return back in Denmark. You’re not above the law. And yes. My farm is calm.
So everyone calm your farm
I think we have all discussed B&O being in trouble many times and they seem to weather the storm.
Recently they posted a few job ads for software people so I’m sure it’s a focus for them
Even if coding is done overseas it’s not the coding but the management of the coding and testing and creating accurate test cases that’s important against that code.
If I can save enough I’m likely to get an eclipse over a harmony because of the fact of the moving stand and a few other things too.
But it is correct to assume that customer service is the priority here.
B&O I always say: You have no customers, you have no business. So keep that in mind.
And I don’t care if others say you’re a small company. I don’t care. You are playing in a global market. You’re in most countries.
Also B&O you cant contravene local country laws. If I bring a product back for a refund and it’s stipulated in my countries law. I don’t care whether you want to accept that or not.
Nor do I need to wait for you to accept a return back in Denmark.
You’re not above the law.
And yes. My farm is calm.
PaulGiles: B&O, if you are listening/watching, support and look after your dealers, treat them with respect and allow them to show your brand to all.
PaulGiles:Ok. These threads keep appearing. One thing we cannot deny... B&O is like no other.
One thing we cannot deny... B&O is like no other.
Totally true. And no-one here is denying this. As I keep saying, we're all active purchasers of B&O kit.
We're just a tad...worried. Plus it's genuinely hard for a Brit to justify £10K for a TV in 2019 in the current climate. I'd buy an Eclipse in a heart beat if it was a tad more cost-affordable (and now knowing a C9 + Stage can be bought for £2500), that's why I'd love an entry-level BV14 style TV for around £5-6K. I'd snap this up immediately. But it doesn't exist. And I don't need any more speakers as, like others point out, they last ages. I still have BL3's going strong from about 2005!
Sandyb:Again, an Eclipse Mk 2 is nowhere near imminent or coming at all. Yes they definitely thought about it, but that was a. while ago, and do not hold your breath.
moxxey:Totally true. And no-one here is denying this. As I keep saying, we're all active purchasers of B&O kit. We're just a tad...worried. Plus it's genuinely hard for a Brit to justify £10K for a TV in 2019 in the current climate. I'd buy an Eclipse in a heart beat if it was a tad more cost-affordable (and now knowing a C9 + Stage can be bought for £2500), that's why I'd love an entry-level BV14 style TV for around £5-6K. I'd snap this up immediately. But it doesn't exist. And I don't need any more speakers as, like others point out, they last ages. I still have BL3's going strong from about 2005!
New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0
Mikipedia on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Mikipedia
Mikipedi4 on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mikipedi4
Mikipedia on Intagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikipedi4/
Old: Beosound 9000 mk3, Beolab 3's, Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.
Mikipidia:People keep telling me that’s what they want and i can only see the price being in that range and then they get less excited... New: Beolab 50's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beovision eclipse, Beosound 9000 mk3, Beosound 1 Bronze edition, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1. Mikipedia on YouTube (finally ) https://www.youtube.com/c/Mikipedia Old: Beolab 1's, beolab 2, beovision 10-46, overture 2300, beolab 8000's, beolab 4000's, beovision avant 32" etc. etc.
Yes, their business is in trouble. Yes, they make the most beautiful AV products. Yes, some of their products command premium prices on eBay. The Beolab 11 is by far the worst price-performance subwoofer I can think of, but it is also by far the most beautiful - like nothing else.
The key is product-market fit. Is there a big enough market for what they are creating? I love B&O products and wish they succeed. They make great iconic products.
B&O in my life 😊:
moxxey:Totally true. And no-one here is denying this. As I keep saying, we're all active purchasers of B&O kit.We're just a tad...worried. Plus it's genuinely hard for a Brit to justify £10K for a TV in 2019 in the current climate. I'd buy an Eclipse in a heart beat if it was a tad more cost-affordable (and now knowing a C9 + Stage can be bought for £2500), that's why I'd love an entry-level BV14 style TV for around £5-6K. I'd snap this up immediately. But it doesn't exist. And I don't need any more speakers as, like others point out, they last ages. I still have BL3's going strong from about 2005!
In Haarlem, Netherlands, there is some trust in the future - new main street store opening in Feb (not a big one though)
In February a new B&O shop will open in Horsens/Denmark.
So you are right - there are still some who see a future for B&O.
Beolab 28s Beolab 9s Beolab 12-3s Beolab 1s Beolab 6000s 2 pairs Beolab 4000s Beovision 7-55 Beovision 10-40 Beoplay V1 32 inch Beovision Avant 32 inch Beosound 1 (CD player) Beosound 3000 Beosound 5 Core Essence MKII Beoplay M5
John and the guys in Manchester seem to be rather positive too.
https://youtu.be/ix4ERQI2GNM
Are they blind?
There we go the (negative) way again....boring.
If you want something different than the mainstream and you can afford it, buy it. Otherwise go buy online or in a big store somewhere else with the cheapest prices.
I've seen several who've tried to mix and match their gear to get the same result, but they had never, call it the " easiness", to control the set. I know a lot of dealers here in The Netherlands and I can say I don't hear them complaining, other than the ones who just sit and wait for the customer who enters the store. Dealers have to have actively engaged to generate turnover.
And once they have installed the setups, it's commonly professionally done and looks flawless. I still believe that there is a market for people who want a neat finishing touch.
I've been on the factory last summer and (only) then you get an impression of the amount of detailing B&O puts in their products. I think more people should see this. I think once you've seen it, you will embrace the brand more than before.
If you just want to spend 3K on a tv, that's fine, but then B&O is not the brand for you.
Beobuddy:I've been on the factory last summer and (only) then you get an impression of the amount of detailing B&O puts in their products. I think more people should see this.
.
Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
Beobuddy:There we go the (negative) way again....boring....If you just want to spend 3K on a tv, that's fine, but then B&O is not the brand for you.
If you just want to spend 3K on a tv, that's fine, but then B&O is not the brand for you. @ Beobuddy. Remember a BeoVision TV is an LG TV. Prices Danish kroner.
55" - 7.999 Dkr = 916 GBP
seethroughyou: It’s a shame they don’t put any “detailing” into their software, years later they can’t get the Moment software or the B&O app to work reliably. That could be a serious impediment to their future survivability.
It’s a shame they don’t put any “detailing” into their software, years later they can’t get the Moment software or the B&O app to work reliably. That could be a serious impediment to their future survivability.
That's one of the reasons they started to collaborate with LG. B&O extends their functionality (audio processing, stand, etc) which results in a stable product.
Peter Pan: If you just want to spend 3K on a tv, that's fine, but then B&O is not the brand for you. @ Beobuddy. Remember a BeoVision TV is an LG TV. Prices Danish kroner.
Stop nagging, that's a fact we already know. I can't enjoy a bare LG panel, not to mention that everyone recognizes a B&O tv from a mile distance compared to other brands.
I'm in the privileged position to enter different B&O shops on different locations regurlary and still everytime I enter a shop the Eclipse and Harmony make their presence. Can't say that from other panels I see.(which I also see)
seethroughyou: The problem is that B&O is not for this guy it also doesn’t seem to be for the super wealthy either. So if the middle classes have stopped buying B&O and the super wealthy have stopped buying, one wonders.
The problem is that B&O is not for this guy it also doesn’t seem to be for the super wealthy either. So if the middle classes have stopped buying B&O and the super wealthy have stopped buying, one wonders.
I was searching for a Mini One for my daughter and travelled on the internet. The amount of problems I have read throughout that search, makes you wonder whether you should a Mini. However I see them on every corner of a street parked.
The negativity on the internet you read, strikes a brand like B&O harder than with other bigger (more selling) brands. That's the problem with the more wealthy people reading reading that negativity. It's common that you hardly read the stories where people have less or no problems (as already mentioned in another topic).
@Beobuddy,
This guy owned:
Beolab 5
Beolab 1
Beolab 6000
Beolab 8000
Beolab penta
Beovision 8-40
Beovision 10-40
Beovision 11-46
Beosound 5
Beoplay A1/A2
Beotime
And you?
Stop using that for an excuse!
My Holiday Season opinion.
Somebody or some group continue to think that B&O is a better play with "customer first" strategy, but doesn't behave in a customer-first way. It wants to be cool with the techies, but has sketchy tech. lt is a global brand but now only has enough presence in the entire western hemisphere to give B&O executives nice places to mix holiday with business travel.
Auto brands are an interesting analogy for me because, like auto, electronics purchase lean heavy toward males and how we grew up and have aged. But Porsche would be very different had they not built Cayenne. Similar stories for other exotic auto brands.
Bentley, Rolls Royce, Volvo, Aston Martin, Lotus, etc ended up led by those with huge resources that they invested under their rules to get varying measure of success. Then they all started offering a line that ALL people wanted to buy and still kept their DNA. But rich companies (like rich countries) don't take orders from those they salvage. I think that is the real reason nobody has written a relatively incredibly small cheque to acquire B&O.
I hope Stage would be this Cayenne because B&O need to sell 10X Thousands to have a successful future even if what B&O prefer happens (as they have announced), and is acquired by an entity of substantial means. Flagship have a lot to do with keeping designers and marketing consultants employed, and takeaways keep the lights on if you sell enough of them. Thing like A9 and Stage are where the money is and might attract some investment interest.
Otherwise they can keep getting smaller and less relevant while still paying salaries to the same people for less results and justify it by annual "transformations" and kicking out the CEO every couple years.
Pollyanna is a nice thing. Denial is completely different. Rasputin helped take down a dynasty.
The Holiday season is a time for celebration and renewal for the next year. Hope all of you and B&O have that.
Beobuddy:That's one of the reasons they started to collaborate with LG. B&O extends their functionality (audio processing, stand, etc) which results in a stable product.
Beobuddy:Stop nagging, that's a fact we already know. I can't enjoy a bare LG panel, not to mention that everyone recognizes a B&O tv from a mile distance compared to other brands.
That may well be true - in the UK the 12-65 was 14k GBP, while the Harmony 65 is 11k GBP, or 12k GBP for the wood grill - i.e the Harmony may be cheaper.
But that may not be comparing like for like.
The 12-65, for example, was B&O though and through, whereas the Harmony (and the Eclipse too) are more transparently an LG through and through, bolted on to a B&O sound system.
As ever, people will have different views on whether the general price premium was more justifiable in the old (pre-Eclipse) period vs the new (Eclipse, Harmony).
Mikipidia:Is the harmony that expensive for what it is? B&o bit is 11.500 for the 77” asking price and if you consider that you get one of the best receivers, center channels, radio and streaming hubs for that price. Not to mention the motion, products quality and oak panels and something that’s very unique and unobtrusive when it’s off. The harmony in 65” is half the price of the bv12-65 when that was new. So is the harmony that expensive? When you think about it?
The harmony in 65” is half the price of the bv12-65 when that was new. So is the harmony that expensive? When you think about it?
koning: @Beobuddy, This guy owned: Beolab 5 Beolab 1 Beolab 6000 Beolab 8000 Beolab penta Beovision 8-40 Beovision 10-40 Beovision 11-46 Beosound 5 Beoplay A1/A2 Beotime And you?
Way more, but I wasn't aware that it would turn in some kind of contest.
The question is, were did it go wrong somewhere on this list? I can imagine that it started with the BS5, which worked well when it was released. But after some time the need for more (internet)functionality became the issue where the BS5 wasn't designed for..I remember that you ditched the new acquired Core for the Node. Which version was it? The first, second or already the third version?