ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I have 9s, and have listened to 20s. The 20s sound better to me. My question is do they sound enough better to justify upgrading. What do others think? Are they better? A little better? A lot better?
Thanks
Beolab 28s Beolab 9s Beolab 12-3s Beolab 1s Beolab 6000s 2 pairs Beolab 4000s Beovision 7-55 Beovision 10-40 Beoplay V1 32 inch Beovision Avant 32 inch Beosound 1 (CD player) Beosound 3000 Beosound 5 Core Essence MKII Beoplay M5
I've not had a chance to hear the 20s...but they spec as going lower in the bass. But, what did you think sounded better? In what way(s) did you think they were better? Would love more listening impressions from you since you've heard both!
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
By clearer do you mean brighter on the treble, or more a clearer, more say detailed midrange? Sometimes it's hard to come up with a descriptive terminology that's shared by more than one person, but I can see either being perceived as "clearer." I can't wait to hear them, I expected deeper bass as the specs changed and from the way they are using two amps and a dual voice coil for the woofer...that can let you do some interesting tailoring by driving each voice coil differently, say one full range and the other only below a certain point, more flexibility than you can get just by changing the amps response curve for say the 9's single voice coil driver.
One thing I notice from looking at them, on the 9's the tweeter is mounted a bit more forward it seems in relation to the location of the midrange driver. I would imagine that on the 20 with more sophisticated DSP they could time align the two by using a digital delay rather than say by physical location.
Hi,
Although the BeoLab 9 and the BeoLab 20 have many similarities:
From an acoustics and a sound design point of view, the 20 is not an upgraded 9 - it is a whole new loudspeaker. There was no conscious attempt to make the 20 sound like the 9. For example, we didn't sit them side by side and do a direct comparison until the very end of the development process of the 20.
This is because the DSP of the 20 allows us to to far more than is possible with the analogue processing of the 9. We do a great deal of work using the processing power in the DSP to counteract resonances (cause by various things in the hardware) in the time domain. This is not possible using analogue processing. In addition, we can ensure that the phase responses of the three drivers are aligned across the two crossovers (in the "old days" this was thought of as time-alignment, but time alignment is a somewhat one-dimensional way to think of the problem. You have to consider this problem of driver interaction in three-dimensional space and across frequency bands.) We can push the low frequency range of the 20 much lower because we can approach its physical limits more closely due to the DSP. And so on and so on...
How they sound, side-by-side is a question that is best answered in your own listening space - so I can't answer that question - sorry. :-)
Cheers
-geoff
Just ask your dealer to loan you a pair of Lab 20s for a week - you can only compare in your own acoustic surroundings.....
Subjective as speaker performance is - I listen to both every day and the 20s are streets ahead in my opinion!
Interesting Mr. Geoff! Good info, DSP does allow so much more to be done, it seems like DSP programmer is one of the core engineering disciplines in audio these days. I can't wait to actually hear the 20s, though I'm happy enough with my 9s that it's unlikely I will be tempted to change.
The use of DSP technology in speakers (and preamps aka 'sound engine') is a thing, where B&O is miles ahead of most other loudspeaker companies.
It is not just a matter of using DSP with loudspeakers, it is much more a matter of knowing how to use DSP,
Some companies buy a 'DSP solutions' from an external company and build them in to their 'active speakers'.
That not, what B&O does!
The skills of the guys in the acoustic department in Struer is a result of a long hard work.
If I had the money, I would not hesitate to buy the BeoLab 20
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
MM B&o are not miles ahead of the competition in DSP technology,they are just starting to embrace it,which I applaud.
Meridian are the pioneers of DSP speakers making the first.Please research before adding such statements.
I should have known, that this would come
I know about your love for the Meridian product, and I surely won't want to take that away from you!
Meridian of course has been 'doing DSP' for a long time - that is correct.
And it might also be correct, that they were the first in the market.
But that does not change the fact, that B&O are miles ahead of 'most other companies' doing their 2nd (or rather 3rd generation) active speakers - which is, what I wrote.
It - however - is not correct to say, that B&O is 'just starting to embrace it'.
The use of DSP-tech has played a major role in B&O Automotive for many years, and a great deal of the knowhow in the B&O speakers (and the audio engine) has come from there. This is something, that did not just started recently.
By the way - it would be nice to learn about the differences in the use of the DSP-tech used by B&O and by Meridian - and how it influences the actual products of the two companies.
Asking myself when we will see new loudspeakers in Bang & Olufsen's range ?
Is allways Geoff Martin working for B&O ?
Thanks for all of the input. I wish my B and O store were closer so I could try a pair in home. However, my nearest store is 3 hours away so an in home demo is somewhat of a problem and an expense. They won't bring them out to me without charging for the travel time and if I want to keep for a few days, there are two trips to pay for. I did do it once with a pair of Beolab 5s.
I just upgraded my rear 4000s to 12-3s and the entire system sound so much better, I keep thinking it would sound even better with the 20s.
BeoBoy68:Asking myself when we will see new loudspeakers in Bang & Olufsen's range ? Is allways Geoff Martin working for B&O ?
meridian are the pioneers of dsp technology I am glad B&o have jumped on the band wagon.They made the first dsp speakers
butch1: meridian are the pioneers of dsp technology I am glad B&o have jumped on the band wagon.They made the first dsp speakers
Sure - you are right, mate
Barry Santini:There were rumors last spring of him leaving for Sony. But his active participation here and on hi so blog with bno postings suggests probably not.
Gee. This is interesting. I didn't hear those rumours. I'm always the last to know. ;-)
-g
BeoBoy68:Is allways Geoff Martin working for B&O ?
Not always. This afternoon, I helped to do the laundry and I washed dishes at home.
Come to think of it, I only work for B&O from Monday mornings until Friday afternoons.
butch1:B&o are not miles ahead of the competition in DSP technology,they are just starting to embrace it,which I applaud.
Hmmm...
I certainly won't comment on our competitors, nor their respective histories.
However, given that the BeoLab 5 was released in 2003 following years of development, and that every B&O loudspeaker that I have been part of (for Automotive, A/V - both loudspeakers and televisions - and B&O Play) over the past 12 years have been fully-active, DSP-based systems, I might take issue with the statement that we are "just starting to embrace it..."
:-)
Razlaw: my nearest store is 3 hours away so an in home demo is somewhat of a problem and an expense. They won't bring them out to me without charging for the travel time and if I want to keep for a few days, there are two trips to pay for. I did do it once with a pair of Beolab 5s.
my nearest store is 3 hours away so an in home demo is somewhat of a problem and an expense. They won't bring them out to me without charging for the travel time and if I want to keep for a few days, there are two trips to pay for. I did do it once with a pair of Beolab 5s.
Any particular reason why you didn't buy the 5's?
Geoff Martin: butch1:B&o are not miles ahead of the competition in DSP technology,they are just starting to embrace it,which I applaud. Hmmm... I certainly won't comment on our competitors, nor their respective histories. However, given that the BeoLab 5 was released in 2003 following years of development, and that every B&O loudspeaker that I have been part of (for Automotive, A/V - both loudspeakers and televisions - and B&O Play) over the past 12 years have been fully-active, DSP-based systems, I might take issue with the statement that we are "just starting to embrace it..." :-) Cheers -g
Hi Geoff,
Which speakers do you prefer the sound of best - 5's or 20's?
ps - sorry to the op for hijacking the thread
That might be like asking him which of his kids he likes best.
Jeff: That might be like asking him which of his kids he likes best.
Everyone has a favorite....
LR2015:Any particular reason why you didn't buy the 5's?
Geoff Martin:Gee. This is interesting. I didn't hear those rumours. I'm always the last to know. ;-) Cheers -g
Now I get tempted to replace my BL9s with BL20s. Typical . I'm just not sure I like the glowing B&O logo. I'd prefer something more discreet that doesn't "brag" - like the old color in the tweeter.
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
Razlaw: I was not that impressed with them. Perhaps my room is not big enough. Also they would both be relatively close to a wall which may have impacted the sound. When I listened to them I could hear a difference between them and my 9s, but it wasn't an improvement, to my ears, it was just different. Based on everything I have read about them, I wanted a pair. But listening to them in my home I could not justify the expense. I wanted to hear much better sound than from my 9s, not just a different sound.
I was not that impressed with them. Perhaps my room is not big enough. Also they would both be relatively close to a wall which may have impacted the sound. When I listened to them I could hear a difference between them and my 9s, but it wasn't an improvement, to my ears, it was just different.
Based on everything I have read about them, I wanted a pair. But listening to them in my home I could not justify the expense. I wanted to hear much better sound than from my 9s, not just a different sound.
Thanks for your reply. I have never listened to the 9's but sounds like they are excellent speakers!
butch1: MM B&o are not miles ahead of the competition in DSP technology,they are just starting to embrace it,which I applaud. Meridian are the pioneers of DSP speakers making the first.Please research before adding such statements.
Bit off topic; but I have Meridian hifi system in my Jag F-Type. Its the most appalling audio upgrade I have ever paid extra for and most owners agree. Its shockingly bad! Not sure I'd ever touch another piece of Meridian ever, not helped by the fact Jaguar have done nothing to fix it for 000's of owners other than stuff the doors with tape and foam to try to remove the reverberations.
Might have to buy an Audi.
Out of Interest, does anyone know if B&O's audio engineers actually get 'really' involved in the design and implementation of their system in various manufacturers cars, or is it just a logo and design thing?
mawheele: Out of Interest, does anyone know if B&O's audio engineers actually get 'really' involved in the design and implementation of their system in various manufacturers cars, or is it just a logo and design thing?
How to start answering that question
We should need a whole new thread (or more) for that.
First of all, it certainly is a lot more, than 'just a logo and a design thing'.
Maybe start reading here:
http://www.bang-olufsen.com/da/the-company/business-to-business/automotive
By the way, Geoff Martin started in the automotive department, when he came to B&O - now looong time ago!
You might be interested in this too:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/bang-olufsens-geoff-martin-pursues-the-perfect-sound
Barry Santini:Spell correction issue. Rumor was Sonos.
Weird. Marvin Gaye was right. You should believe half of what you read and none of what you hear...
Geoff Martin: Not always. This afternoon, I helped to do the laundry and I washed dishes at home. Come to think of it, I only work for B&O from Monday mornings until Friday afternoons.
I hope that you are working hard for new range of loudspeakers !
BeoLab 5, 4 and 3 series are so old now ! It is time to change.
Mawheele,my family have a jaguar and Landrover dealership,so I know the systems.I will agree regarding the f-type system has problems,I have the top system in my Range Rover and it is amazing.I still think the mark levinson system in my mothers old Lexus was still the best I have heard,and Audi A8 B&o close second.
Meridian home systems are much better than their automotive systems.They made the first dsp speaker and active speakers 15 years before B&o.They also made the first CD player,so have a long history and awards,but not for their automotive systems.
I don't own any meridian but have heard numerous systems and I respect their approach to sound.What I meant about B&o embracing dsp is based on their home systems which is limited.with only lab 5s and 20s in the speaker range using it.
Geoff,car audio aside,why has it took so long for B&o to bring more dsp speakers to the range?
butch1:They also made the first CD player,......................
Surely the Sony CDP-101 was first!
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher:Surely the Sony CDP-101 was first! Ban boring signatures!
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Sorry first british company to make a true audiophile CD player.
What does "true audiophile" mean in this context? Given the nature of CD players and their reliance on digital chips that are pretty much only manufactured by large companies who can manage the production of LSI chips, early, and most current, "audiophile" players differ from mass market ones only in the analog outputs, power supplies, and occasionally in how they clamp the disc. Of course, better analog stages and power supplies can sometimes be worth it but are often oversold.
Your correct all CD players sound the same Jeff,so a £100 CD player sounds the same as a £15000 one.Did you buy your beosound 9000 for looks or sound quality?I know why I bought mine.
butch1: Your correct all CD players sound the same Jeff,so a £100 CD player sounds the same as a £15000 one.Did you buy your beosound 9000 for looks or sound quality?I know why I bought mine.
Way to jump to conclusions there guy. But I've done a lot of controlled listening tests to different DACs, under double blind conditions, have you? Sighted tests are worthless for determining differences.
Differences between competently designed digital gear are usually non-existent after level matching. Some are so poorly designed as to be audible, but that includes a fair number of allegedly high end products as mass market.
You, of course, are free to believe whatever you want, and spend accordingly.
Oh, and you mention the BS9000. It was the result of a number of such listening tests that finally disabused me of the belief that high end players were in any way superior to most well designed mass market players. That led me to abandon my fear that a BS9000 wouldn't pass muster and buy one. When I first got it it went into my system in place of my all tube, hand built preamp and high end Denon CD player, which had 7 power supplies, heavily damped chassis, isolated digital stages and analog stages, the whole laundry list of "high end" fashion in digital design. Sounded great, no loss of fidelity noted. Sounded identical in fact. Despite the fact that the Denon cost almost the same price just for a single disc player.
So you could say I bought it for the design, as I felt, and confirmed, that the sonics would be fine.