ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
davidr: Mr 10Percent: and despite what people may say, adding sound deadening panels to the room is not what B&O is about. If you want to do that, buy a £250 monkey-coffin and pretend it’s the same. I never said that.
Mr 10Percent: and despite what people may say, adding sound deadening panels to the room is not what B&O is about. If you want to do that, buy a £250 monkey-coffin and pretend it’s the same.
I never said that.
Never suggested you did. The ethos and concept of the BL90 was to try and do away with that. The ethos of the BL5 and BL90 and probably the BL50 was also to introduce DSP processing to mitigate passive resistance between the loudspeaker and listener in terms of whatever is in the room to equalise either a specific tonal balance or an average one.
To many, it may feel that slapping some egg-crate foam on a wall "does the same thing" but that is very disingenuous to those at B&O who work on these problems when virtually no one else in the industry does and who tend to favour snake oil instead.
Criticise B&O's TV's, their music boxes, their software, or their prices. I for one believe they are on top of the game when it comes to loudspeakers and even amplification for that matter. From BL20 up, there's not much out there that would entice me away.
Mr 10Percent:Criticise B&O's TV's, their music boxes, their software, or their prices. I for one believe they are on top of the game when it comes to loudspeakers and even amplification for that matter. From BL20 up, there's not much out there that would entice me away.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. One area where B&O have had an unwavering focus on performance and pretty damn good success at it is in the loudspeaker department. Save for some quality control issues (i.e. some poor experiences with BL20's misbehaving as has been covered in other threads), B&O has been pretty stellar in the loudspeakers they've released. But then again, I'm a B&O owner and I'm commenting on a B&O forum, so my opinion is inherently biased. LOL
Sal:I agree with this wholeheartedly. One area where B&O have had an unwavering focus on performance and pretty damn good success at it is in the loudspeaker department. Save for some quality control issues (i.e. some poor experiences with BL20's misbehaving as has been covered in other threads), B&O has been pretty stellar in the loudspeakers they've released. But then again, I'm a B&O owner and I'm commenting on a B&O forum, so my opinion is inherently biased. LOL
Duels: Sal: I agree with this wholeheartedly. One area where B&O have had an unwavering focus on performance and pretty damn good success at it is in the loudspeaker department. Save for some quality control issues (i.e. some poor experiences with BL20's misbehaving as has been covered in other threads), B&O has been pretty stellar in the loudspeakers they've released. But then again, I'm a B&O owner and I'm commenting on a B&O forum, so my opinion is inherently biased. LOL Loudspeaker sales are only 13% of B&Os business (apologies, I know I've mentioned it on other threads). So whilst I agree they are very very good, they are hardly the success story they are sometimes thought to be from a sales point of view.
Sal: I agree with this wholeheartedly. One area where B&O have had an unwavering focus on performance and pretty damn good success at it is in the loudspeaker department. Save for some quality control issues (i.e. some poor experiences with BL20's misbehaving as has been covered in other threads), B&O has been pretty stellar in the loudspeakers they've released. But then again, I'm a B&O owner and I'm commenting on a B&O forum, so my opinion is inherently biased. LOL
Loudspeaker sales are only 13% of B&Os business (apologies, I know I've mentioned it on other threads). So whilst I agree they are very very good, they are hardly the success story they are sometimes thought to be from a sales point of view.
As you've aptly pointed out the dichotomy... I was referring to the quality and performance of the products they have produced, doesn't correlate to sales.
And here we are again. No one here really doubts B&O's audio capabilities. I would need little convincing that the speakers are the best at the price point. My worry is that B&O marketing have foreseen significant sales of £20K+ speakers or else they're off target (again).
I have to say that at this stage I'm dubious.
I will say again, turn this engineering expertise to something with genuine sales potential - I forget who it is here who keeps banging on about a good old, conventional TV soundbar! Make it B&O, support it and the latest sound standards, make it pretty but techy and keep the price just within reach of the typical WhatTV type readers / TV enthusiasts and watch them fly!
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher: And here we are again. No one here really doubts B&O's audio capabilities. I would need little convincing that the speakers are the best at the price point. My worry is that B&O marketing have foreseen significant sales of £20K+ speakers or else they're off target (again). I have to say that at this stage I'm dubious.
I have often said that the BL5 never sold well. Probably a few thousand?? I don't know if that was because they were B&O, the price point, or the Audiofiles just turned their noses up?? However, the question is very valid as to whether a £25k loudspeaker will sell when a £15k one didn't do that much. Unless there is a BL30 in the pipeline, I would have put the BL50 in the BL20 to BL5 segment. £25k is a chunk of change and a very serious segment. Cant be that many Buyers in that range who will give them a look-in in preference to the classical 'file brigade?
Does anyone have been out and listen to BL50. ? For that we would like your opinion.Regards / Peter Pan
.
Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
They sound and look amazing. Wait and see folks
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
So here's the thing - Beolab 5 was sort of "Hello" to the world to the acoustic lens and what in can do in a peerless, futuristic design with mind blowing performance for what was a tasty price at the time. The Beolab 3 was a revelation in a package smaller than a conventional bookshelf speaker, was, pricewise, a competitor to the BL 8000 but could almost "disappear" in a normal room décor. The Beolab 9 added a midrange design with bass to burn but including the upper-range clarity of the acoustic lens designs.
Then Wisa arrived and it went wrong slightly when marketing dictated the design of the BL18 (i.e. BL8000's are our best ever sellers, acoustic lens are very popular, and people are calling for a return to wood - why don't we stick a lens on the top and add wood instead of cloth fret covers). The BL20 was an uncalled for styling update and was worse than the BL9!
Several years later the BL90 arrives which shows what is acoustically possible when money is no object, a fantastic technical achievement despite looking like the sorting hat from Harry Potter.
Then we wait with baited breath for the BL50 - it arrives at a price point of £20K+ with a look which says " marketing told us it couldn't be square, must have aluminium, wood and lamellas". Again it has stunning performance but whereas the flagship uses speaker arrays for beam steering this, £20K+ speaker uses a mechanical lens to achieve something that must then be, by definition, less than optimum. I don't understand it, what its for and why I should want it. Yes people will pay this much for a speaker but in this rarefied market the moving lens looks awfully like a marketing gimmick, as is the whole "party mode" thing - whoever went to a party and either noticed, worried about or commented upon the stereo separation of the background music!
I fear that they are destroying their credibility in the small distributed speaker market with the Play brand (where the next battle is being fought between Apple, Amazon and Google) and where a well designed, well thought out B&O BL3-like variant could mop up while diverting their considerable technical resources on projects that may tickle their egos but won't tickle their bank managers!
Ah, the "art" of marketing. If half the people say they want a small speaker, and half want a big one, produce a mid sized one no one wants and then act shocked that no one buys it. It's Marketing!
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff: Ah, the "art" of marketing. If half the people say they want a small speaker, and half want a big one, produce a mid sized one no one wants and then act shocked that no one buys it. It's Marketing!
Wise words.
Or, you could do what the big corporations do today. Produce something you want to produce (as it'll make you a shed load of cash) then spend your budget brainwashing the people into thinking they need it...
As a brand, 'Supreme' have nailed it.
Commes Des Garcons Plain White T-Shirt : £66.
Commes Des Garcons Plain White T-Shirt with the 'Supreme' logo on the front : £350.
Unfortunately, the buying public seem to be getting more stupid by the year when it comes to being brand-brainwashed...
Check out these SOLD (actually sold, at these prices) trainers HERE
Lee
Livingroom: BL3, BL11, BV11-46 Kitchen: Beosound 1 GVA, Beocom 2 Bathroom: M3 Homeoffice: M3, Beocom 2 Library: Beosound Emerge, Beocom 6000 Bedroom: M5, Essence remote Travel: Beoplay E8 2.0, Beoplay EQ, Beoplay Earset
Hiort:Spent an hour listening to the BL50s today. They where just "out of the box", so no tuning/tweaking or anything. Wireless connection to an Avant. They sounded awesome!!! Detailed. Midrange was to die for. Nice bass with no sloppiness. Had the same feeling I got when listening to the BL90s. Lovely
They sounded awesome!!!
Detailed. Midrange was to die for.
Nice bass with no sloppiness.
Had the same feeling I got when listening to the BL90s.
Lovely
Will you be buying?
Puncher:Will you be buying? Ban boring signatures!
9 LEE: Jeff: Ah, the "art" of marketing. If half the people say they want a small speaker, and half want a big one, produce a mid sized one no one wants and then act shocked that no one buys it. It's Marketing! Wise words. Or, you could do what the big corporations do today. Produce something you want to produce (as it'll make you a shed load of cash) then spend your budget brainwashing the people into thinking they need it... As a brand, 'Supreme' have nailed it. Commes Des Garcons Plain White T-Shirt : £66. Commes Des Garcons Plain White T-Shirt with the 'Supreme' logo on the front : £350. Unfortunately, the buying public seem to be getting more stupid by the year when it comes to being brand-brainwashed... Check out these SOLD (actually sold, at these prices) trainers HERE Lee
It does seem like a race to the bottom of the barrel at times doesn't it? There's an old saying that no one ever went broke underestimating the taste or intelligence of the average buyer.
Back in the day, pre-me as it were, my wife's boyfriend gave her a Christmas present of I think it was a Gucci wallet, which was expensive, but showed he didn't understand her at all (lucky for me!). It had the name Gucci written on it all over, over and over and over. Definitely not my wife's taste, she like me never felt the need to advertise how cool or hip she was by a name on an item. At the time, she favored purses and such by Coach, which had maybe a 5x15 mm tag sewn on one seam, black with muted gold lettering saying Coach. They were instantly recognizable, even to a fashion and ladies accessories Philistine like me, as being expensive and quality by looking at the quality of the materials and the attention to detail in the stitching and construction. They lasted forever with proper care as they were high quality leather, were in style as classics forever, and unless you searched for the label quite anonymous looking.
Maybe B&O would sell better if it said B&O in large, friendly letters on it, repeated over and over, so your "friends" would know you had good taste?
I'm sure that they sound amazing and perfectly, many (or most) people will like their design and build quality, ... BUT how many will have the money to spend for a pair of these? And from those having the money, how many will be willing to buy them?
benoit: I'm sure that they sound amazing and perfectly, many (or most) people will like their design and build quality, ... BUT how many will have the money to spend for a pair of these? And from those having the money, how many will be willing to buy them?
That should not be 'our problem'.
I have enough confidence in the ability of B&O to judge, whether these can/will be sold or not, that I would not worry about that.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Millemissen: ....... I have enough confidence in the ability of B&O to judge, whether these can/will be sold or not, that I would not worry about that.
....... I have enough confidence in the ability of B&O to judge, whether these can/will be sold or not, that I would not worry about that.
Sadly, B&O are not Jedi's, nor do they hold the secrets to the universe... Everything in business is a 'best guess' if you're selling something people might want, as opposed to might need.
We need food, we need warmth, we need shelter. We certainly know what we need, but we're not always sure we know what we want. That's where the marketing people put down their 'chai lattes' and get to work.
What we want is governed by what we can afford. So, if you have plenty of money, the choices available to you become infinitely bigger.
The challenge then, is to target someone who has lots of money to spend. Then, amongst the hundreds of marketing agencies, brand ambassadors and fancy storefronts, you have to make them want to spend it on what you're selling.
It seems these days that just having an incredible product isn't enough. It has to be incredible and cool. People have to know what it is, who made it, and the brand has to be instantly recognisable. Even the most hard-nosed "I don't care what other people think" person is a liar if they say they don't get a kick when someone goes "Wow!" at their new purchase. It's hard-wired in us, wether we like it or not. Even people who 'rebel' seek the approval of other rebels.. but that's just humans - we're all smart, and dumb, in equal measure.
Anyway, what I'm saying is.. you have to find someone who loves the design, loves the sound, thinks B&O is cool, has people around them who know what B&O is (so as not to get laughed at for dropping £25k on a pair of speakers they haven't heard of), and.. most importantly, has £25k to drop on some loudspeakers.
So : the design is marmite - you'll love it or loathe it (in true B&O fashion), you can't not love the sound - they're fantastic, B&O as a brand is on the slide so not quite as many people who used to think it was cool, think it's cool any more, the people these days who know what B&O is are shrinking at an alarming rate.. so that could be a tough sell, and finally the amount of people who tick all the previous boxes and have £25k to spend on a pair of loudspeakers is shrinking rapidly.
These days the brand gets people in front of your products. Then, the product, if good, drives the sales. More sales, more brand awareness - and there's my 'virtuous circle'.. Look at the 'boom times' for B&O. The brand was strong, the products were excellent - and the sky was the limit.
Now, the brand is weak thanks to years of awful marketing and some truly awful experiences for the few loyal followers left.
The fiercely loyal followers of B&O with money to spend will buy these. If I had £25k to spend on some speakers, I'd be there at my local dealer's launch waving my chequebook like it was a fan on a hot day... As for the rest of the population, we can only keep our fingers crossed on behalf of B&O.
The designer (in my opinion) has done a great job. Geoff Martin (in my opinion) has done a great job. All boxes ticked by all involved. If they sell in smaller numbers than the BeoLab 5, it's not down to the product - it's down to the brand.
New teaser up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv2cmTCjWrY
A young bloke in his early 20's with an expensive hobby..
Present:
Beovision 4-50 Full HD, Beosystem 3, DVD2, Beolab 8000 MK2, Beolab 7-2, Beotime alarmclock, Beosystem 2300, Beolab 2500, Beovision 8-40, Beosound 8, Beo5, Beo4 DTV
Sold:
BeoMaster 7000, BeoVox RL7000, BeoCenter 6-23 DVI, Beolab 4, B&O F1000 furniture, Beovision 8-26
Excellent, thanks for these pictures. Just to get an idea of their size, can you tell us which version of the Beovision Avant they are standing next to? 55", 75" or 85"?
Thanks!
Current: Beovision Eclipse 65" v1 - Beolab 50 - Beolab 28 - 2 x BS2 (GVA) - 1 x BS1 (GVA) - Beoremote Halo - H9i
Past:
Beovision MX4000 - Beovision 3-32 - Beovision 7-55
Beosound 9000 - Beosound 5 / Beomaster 5
Beolab 6000 - Beolab 8000 - Beolab 5 - Beolab 3 - Beolab 17
benoit:... BUT how many will have the money to spend for a pair of these? And from those having the money, how many will be willing to buy them ?
9 LEE: As for the rest of the population, we can only keep our fingers crossed on behalf of B&O. Lee
As for the rest of the population, we can only keep our fingers crossed on behalf of B&O.
That is exactly what I mean.
I firmly believe that these guys are smarter than me (and - sorry - also smarter than most of the posters here).
They must have 'thought of something', before launching a speaker at this price - I am sure.
But in the end - why not trust them --- why distrust them as a lot of the posters here seem to prefer?
Millemissen: They must have 'thought of something', before launching a speaker at this price - I am sure. But in the end - why not trust them --- why distrust them as a lot of the posters here seem to prefer? MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Although I am critical of the price-point of these units and that relative t the BL5 market share, I think there are some other possibilities:-
1. Marketing of the BL5 was surrounded by too much competition. Selling something technically sate of art at a higher price may gain a few more sales
2. Feedback on the BL90 has resulted in a significantly more economical WAF package B&O think they can sell
9 LEE:If I had £25k to spend on some speakers, I'd be there at my local dealer's launch waving my chequebook like it was a fan on a hot day...
Lee, I read your post with much interest and wanted to reply to much of it but I have in fact picked out this one particular statement of yours, which pretty much sums up my feelings to your post. I actually want to disagree with much of what you write. I respect your opinion of course but I challenge the above statement and earlier statements in your post when you write,
"What we want is governed by what we can afford. So, if you have plenty of money, the choices available to you become infinitely bigger.
The challenge then, is to target someone who has lots of money to spend. Then, amongst the hundreds of marketing agencies, brand ambassadors and fancy storefronts, you have to make them want to spend it on what you're selling."
I just don't agree with this at all as I am in the position (very fortunately) to be able to spend this amount of money and a lot more if I wanted to on BeoLab 90s for example and whatever else is out there at the silly prices being asked by people who seem to think we live in a 'throw away money society.' However, I am not a silly individual, I am an intelligent one. I don't just throw money away - I value it. Money has meaning, particularly in my case as much of what I have has been handed down through the family (inheritance etc) so I am certainly not going to disrespect those who worked so hard to achieve what it in the first place for their family. Lots of people have money, some very large amounts, but that doesn't mean they need or even want to spend it, and people come into money through all sorts of ways.
I have made countless posts on this forum over the years that reference VALUE FOR MONEY and again, I come back to that point. I simply was not brought up to spend £25,000 on a pair of speakers, let alone £50,000 or more on a pair of BL90s for example. It's just not in my vocab - so to speak. The money is their, and could be spent, but it won't be. For me, and in honour of my family, I will be putting any money left to me to better use i.e. charitable causes, but that's just me and is what my family wanted so I will honour that.
I think it is important to voice this though as many businesses seem to think that people with access to money just spend it 'willy nilly.' Well, many don't. People like to get value for money and a product is only ever a product and worth what it is worth, which isn't much believe me. A human being and a cause is so much more.
Simon.
B&O products are V1-32, BS2, H95, E8 and an Essence remote.11-46 now replaced with Sony A90J 65”, Sony HT-A9, Sony UBP-X800M2 and Sony SRS-NS7.
BAND'OH!:I simply was not brought up to spend £25,000 on a pair of speakers, let alone £50,000 or more on a pair of BL90s for example. It's just not in my vocab - so to speak. The money is their, and could be spent, but it won't be. For me, and in honour of my family, I will be putting any money left to me to better use i.e. charitable causes, but that's just me and is what my family wanted so I will honour that.
KMA
B&O product history since 1991: Ridiculously long to list in a signature.
Good question KMA and one that I am unsure how to answer. to be honest. I suppose we are all different in life. We all have different experiences and come from different backgrounds. I just know that my father would 'turn in his grave' if I spent this kind of money on a pair of speakers. My love and respect for my late father is far greater than a pair of speakers, no matter who the manufacturer. That's all I 'feel' at this moment. Simon.
I'm with BAND'OH on this one. I think the number of people in this day and age who'd be willing to accept the value for money proposition on a pair of speakers at the price point of the BL90s and BL50s (and from other brands in a similar price range) is small, and likely getting smaller -- regardless of the supreme technical achievements that both speaker models represent.
That being said, B&O have very smart people on their staff, and they have to have thought this through, and found that there's enough demand that it was worth it to develop both speakers. Just perhaps this forum isn't a good representation of the general population who has the means and is willing spend at those price points.
Additionally, Mr10Percent said that there were only a few thousand pairs of BL5's sold. Heck, if only a few thousand pairs of a speaker as sonically proven and iconic in design were sold over 10+ years of its existence, how many sets of BL90s / BL50s will B&O sell over their lifetime?
I love B&O and I really want them to succeed, and I love the fact that they spend the time and effort to develop the things that they do, and the concepts and tech trickle down to products that (hopefully) are sold in larger numbers -- to enable B&O to survive. I bought a pair of BL9's and BL20s because I felt they were worth it to me -- and I know I'm not normal -- my wife tells me that all the time.
It just seems like the value to money proposition is a broader question about where society and those with the means to spend that kind of money on speakers see it as being "well spent." My gut tells me people's sensibilities are changing and that high end electronics from boutique brands isn't broadly accepted as a good value proposition. But then again, B&O still lives on, so I likely don't know what I'm talking about! LOL
Rather than rambling on, BAND'OH's astute quote:
BAND'OH!:I suppose we are all different in life. We all have different experiences and come from different backgrounds.
What one finds distasteful, another may find palatable. I just hope there are enough folks out there who find B&O's wares palatable for the company to survive long into the future.
There are two Beolab 50 threads.
Maybe they should be merged?
CB:I wonder how much weight the engine of the lifter can support ? Did B&O made tests with... a flower pot, a lamp, a cat, grandma (!) or something else ?
Did B&O made tests with... a flower pot, a lamp, a cat, grandma (!) or something else ?
That's a good point. By the way, wood speakers with water stains in the shape of circles from flower pots being sat on top shows who really wears the pants in the family.
Thanks StKong. I can confirm they sound as good as they look.