ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Jeff:From looking at the manual for the Wireless transmitter since it has a 2.1 option based on stereo in it appears it has a highpass? Yes, no, maybe?
The Wireless transmitter box has a built-in bass management system that is activated when it is in 2.1 mode. However, it does not have an adjustable crossover frequency (as in the BeoVision 11 / BeoPlay V1). Also, when you use the box's bass management, the low pass filter on the BeoLab 19 should be disabled to ensure that you don't have two low pass filters in the same frequency band.
Cheers
-geoff
But it does have a fixed highpass? Can you say what the freq and slope is?
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff: But it does have a fixed highpass? Can you say what the freq and slope is?
Hi again,
Oops, sorry - the wireless transmitter box's bass management system uses a high pass for the "main" loudspeakers and a low-pass for the subwoofer. Both the low-pass for the sub and the high-pass for the main signals are 4th order Linkwitz-Riley and has a fixed crossover frequency of 120 Hz. This is identical to the default setting in the BeoVision 11, which is described in the Technical Sound Guide, available at http://www.bang-olufsen.com/en/customer-service/product-support/picture/beovision-11.
Thanks! I would imagine anywhere between 80 and 120 would work OK for the older 8000s, especially 4th order.
Has anyone talked about the fact that the oak grille adds $1350 to a pair of Beolab 18's - making them $8,000? It's hard to defend the style over substance argument when they are asking $1350 for speaker grilles.
I do not know all the details, but haven´t they improved the speaker kind of?
Anyways, either you got it or not. From my point of view the price point is right where it is supposed to be.
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Ryan: Has anyone talked about the fact that the oak grille adds $1350 to a pair of Beolab 18's - making them $8,000? It's hard to defend the style over substance argument when they are asking $1350 for speaker grilles.
What? The grills are $1350?! They aren't even all that.
Look at the bright side. There is a high chance that grills which will cover the lenses will be an option too.
I am seeing individual blades of varying lengths or paint marks making up the grill that mimics the shape of a sound wave.
Insane is all i can say.
For that kind of money they must be sound very very very good.
Lars: I do not know all the details, but haven´t they improved the speaker kind of? Anyways, either you got it or not. From my point of view the price point is right where it is supposed to be.
I am comparing a pair of penguins (Beolab 9) to a pair of Beolab 18 + a Beolab 19.
I shall be at my b&O shop to listen to both speaker pair/triple and then I have to think thrice about a replacement of my BeoVox Penta attached to the Arcam Solo ("sold" and soldered to my Beovision 8 as a pair of Beolab 5...). I hope it will be a hard choice ...
I think the winner is the beolab 9
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Razlaw:I am considering a pair of 18s as new rears to go with my 9s. Visually they would fit perfectly in my room and I am guessing sound much better than my current 4000s as well as giving me ALT all around. The more I look at the 18s the more I like them. The 8000s are starting to look dated to me now in comparison.
The more I look at the 18s the more I like them. The 8000s are starting to look dated to me now in comparison.
How far do you sit in front of your current rears? The BL18's may not be ideal as rears if they are too close to your seating position as, according to Geoff Martin, the high frequency balance was set at a listening position of 3 metres from the loudspeakers. If you speakers are just behind your seat you may be sitting "under" the sweet spot.
Ban boring signatures!
Razlaw:There are compromises that must be made in virtually all surround sound set ups. I am sure there are similar specific distance that were designed into 3s, 5s, 9s, and 12s. Or is the 18 unique and they have designed it completely different than other ALT speakers? I do not read Geoff Martin's comments as in any way saying the speakers will only sound good if placed at a precise distance. I have considered a second pair of 9s for the rear but they would be too low. I have considered 8002s given their height, but would not have ALT all around. The 18s seem to be a logical choice.
From the B&O's BL12 page -
"It is important that the Acoustic Lens is positioned so that it directs audio at the appropriate listening height".
Oh my what a contradiction! So why is the Beolab18 designed the way it is with the lens way above the listening height?
I didn't know B&O will put that so explicitly. Isn't functional elegance suppose to be one of its key ethos? But here comes a line that sounds so audiophile. What's going on?
wonderfulelectric: Oh my what a contradiction! So why is the Beolab18 designed the way it is with the lens way above the listening height? I didn't know B&O will put that so explicitly. Isn't functional elegance suppose to be one of its key ethos? But here comes a line that sounds so audiophile. What's going on?
For fronts, they are optimised for a range of ~3m which is fine. My point was that many surround systems are set up with the rears just behind the "listening" sofa. In this case I question the use of BL18's as rears with the lens up so high. I quoted the BL12 page as the other poster questioned whether the lens position was a factor.
Puncher: wonderfulelectric: Oh my what a contradiction! So why is the Beolab18 designed the way it is with the lens way above the listening height? I didn't know B&O will put that so explicitly. Isn't functional elegance suppose to be one of its key ethos? But here comes a line that sounds so audiophile. What's going on? For fronts, they are optimised for a range of ~3m which is fine. My point was that many surround systems are set up with the rears just behind the "listening" sofa. In this case I question the use of BL18's as rears with the lens up so high. I quoted the BL12 page as the other poster questioned whether the lens position was a factor.
Oh I see. So that quote was from another poster and not the official site. That makes much better sense now.
Honestly I think the Beolab12s have much better design and might be better acoustically. I hope they do a revision and add wireless sooner rather than later.
wonderfulelectric: Oh I see. So that quote was from another poster and not the official site. That makes much better sense now. Honestly I think the Beolab12s have much better design and might be better acoustically. I hope they do a revision and add wireless sooner rather than later.
No. The quote is from the official site. The other poster questioned whether the ALT height was relevant.
Oh it is? I couldn't find it... sigh... I don't think today has been good for me.
Puncher: From the B&O's BL12 page - "It is important that the Acoustic Lens is positioned so that it directs audio at the appropriate listening height".
This is not surprising and certainly not contradictory, since the 12's were tuned with the height set so that the tweeter+ALT were at ear height (1.1 m off the floor, approximately 3 m away).
Please remember in this discussion that
In other words, a recommendation for one loudspeaker doesn't necessarily apply to another. As I said, BeoLab 12's were tuned with the tweeter at my ear-height. The BeoLab 18's were tuned with my ears at ear-height.
In other words, none of the loudspeakers in the current Bang & Olufsen portfolio are designed to give you a razor-flat on-axis magnitude response from DC to light at the cost of all else (like power response or directivity). This would only make sense if all of our customers lived in anechoic chambers (or, as a close second - used them as near field monitors in highly damped recording studios).
Razlaw: I do not read Geoff Martin's comments as in any way saying the speakers will only sound good if placed at a precise distance.
I do not read Geoff Martin's comments as in any way saying the speakers will only sound good if placed at a precise distance.
Thank you - this is most certainly not what I said. I mentioned distance during tuning for the benefit of those who are good at trigonometry. The question of "where is on-axis" is one of angle, not height or distance. However, angle can be calculated using height and distance if you can throw around a cosine or sine with relative ease. If you're worried about the on-axis response and nothing else, then you will have to get shorter as you move farther away. However, please remember that, in most cases, your distance from almost any loudspeaker in your room is likely greater than the room's critical distance. Consequently, most of the energy you hear is from the power response of the loudspeaker - not the on-axis or off-axis magnitude response.
So, my strong recommendation is to not place so much emphasis on the magnitude response of the loudspeaker at one single angle (or height and distance, if you prefer) unless your listening room is a recording studio or an anechoic chamber.
cheers
So, for my benefit, are you saying it's Ok to sit within a metre or so of the BL18's configured as rears and still hear them at their best?
Puncher: So, for my benefit, are you saying it's Ok to sit within a metre or so of the BL18's configured as rears and still hear them at their best?
I am sorry but that is just a dumb question in my opinion you can easy answer that your self. Of cause BL 18 is not at it best at a rear position but no speaker are that, except special designed rear speakers set in a special design home with ONE person seeing the movie or concert. That will always be the case no matter what brand.
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emilos: Puncher: So, for my benefit, are you saying it's Ok to sit within a metre or so of the BL18's configured as rears and still hear them at their best? I am sorry but that is just a dumb question in my opinion you can easy answer that your self. Of cause BL 18 is not at it best at a rear position but no speaker are that, except special designed rear speakers set in a special design home with ONE person seeing the movie or concert. That will always be the case no matter what brand.
Thanks - I bow to your experience!
Perhaps you should pass this insight on to B&O!
I am convined that they are aware of that the perfect world does not exist and I feel that it is what Geoff is trying to say. They calibrate the speakers to perform their best in an average room.
I just feel when you say that you should not use BL 18 as rear it is because you don't get the perfect sound from them. I just feel that you expect something there is not possible, but please give a link to the perfect rear.
Most things here in life is a compromise...
I guess the most correct answer is "it depends". More precisely, it depends on:
Personally, I wouldn't see this as being a different problem for the BL18's in particular. To do a "correct" multichannel configuration, all of your loudspeakers should be the same distance from the listening position (search for "Rec. ITU-R BS.775-1" for details). Adjusting for level and delay as everyone does (even me, at home! ) is a good trick, but nothing beats having the loudspeakers in the correct positions.
Also, I would say that having matched loudspeakers all around (also as recommended in the ITU document) is also a good idea - particularly for multichannel music. No decent mixing or mastering studio is using unmatched loudspeakers for the front and surrounds - at the very least, the midrange and tweeters are matched. So the idea of having a loudspeaker that is especially designed as a surround channel sounds a little strange to me, personally.
However, the short version of the answer is "yes".
Geoff Martin: However, the short version of the answer is "yes".
Then that's that, and I stand corrected
I look forward to hearing them when released.
Geoff, do you mind if I ask another question I have wondered about, and please forgive me if this is a dumb question. I currently have 9s as my fronts, and as mentioned have been interested in upgrading my rears. I understand that it would be preferable to have the same speakers all around in a surround system. I have considered a second pair of 9s. In my opinion the downside is the low height of the 9s as rears. The possible up side I see, in addition to matching the fronts, is added more uniform bass?
So my question is, how does a Beovision 7-55, or B and O TVs in general, handle bass if there is no sub woofer and four 9s? I like the sound of the system without a subwoofer better than with a sub woofer. Do 9s as rears receive much bass in comparison to the fronts when no sub woofer is used or would the additional bass performance of 9s be wasted in the rear?
Thanks!
Hi Razlaw,
good question
Looking forward to the answer.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Razlaw: Geoff, do you mind if I ask another question I have wondered about, and please forgive me if this is a dumb question. I currently have 9s as my fronts, and as mentioned have been interested in upgrading my rears. I understand that it would be preferable to have the same speakers all around in a surround system. I have considered a second pair of 9s. In my opinion the downside is the low height of the 9s as rears. The possible up side I see, in addition to matching the fronts, is added more uniform bass? So my question is, how does a Beovision 7-55, or B and O TVs in general, handle bass if there is no sub woofer and four 9s? I like the sound of the system without a subwoofer better than with a sub woofer. Do 9s as rears receive much bass in comparison to the fronts when no sub woofer is used or would the additional bass performance of 9s be wasted in the rear? Thanks!
Hi,
To be completely honest, I don't know (too bad you don't own a BV11 - then I'd have the answer for you… ).
However, I'll dig into the bass management schematics and find out the best answer for you. Note that it might take a week or so to get back to you. Hope that's okay...
Appreciate your participation and info Geoff.
If you get time for one more question, why doesn't the Lab 5 use ABL?
Hi jeff,
I might have the answer to that:
It is simply not needed!
Millemissen: Hi jeff, I might have the answer to that: It is simply not needed! MM
That is what I think the answer is, the bass capabilities are so robust it doesn't need it, but it would be interesting to get a definitive answer.
Living Room: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-2 (Center), Beolab 9 (Fronts), Beolab 8000 (Rears), no Subwoofer. Screen: Sony KD-85XH9096Dining Room: Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 4000 on stands, fed by Amazon Echo Show 8Home Cinema: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-4 (Center), Beolab 1 (Fronts), Beolab 4000 (Rears). Projector: Sony VPL-HW55Home Office: Beosystem 3, Beolab 7-4, Beolab 5000, Screen: Sony KD-55XH9005 on Beovision 7-40 stand, ML to Beosound 9000 MK3 and Beosound 5/Beomaster 5 (1 TB SSD version)Bedroom: Sony KD-65XH9077, Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 6002 and Beolab 11 (all white, wall-mounted)
In storage: Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000 (1960s).
That's it, Geoff mentioned that in his blog posting about ABL, it surprised me.
Millemissen: It is simply not needed!
Good guess.
Note, however, that the BL5 DOES have thermal protection (which might be considered to fall under the general category of ABL if we're being a little vague… although it has that protection for all drivers, not just the bass, so the "B" in ABL would be misleading here) and thermal compression compensation (which I plan to explain in a future posting on my tech blog).
MartinW:No ABL? Has my whole life been a lie??
Unfortunately, I cannot make any statements about the veracity of the history of your existence. Sorry. Someone else will have to answer this question. :-)
I think it's because the Beolab 5 was designed to be more of a theoretically perfect flat at all frequencies and volume model than say the other loudspeakers that are voiced for real listening plus of course the bass drivers are so huge that there is not much of a need to adjust the equalization applied when things get rough.